Design: Storyline

[BTAxis]

Hmm, yeah, good point. The humans would be interested in how the alien language works, if only so they can try to communicate and/or intercept alien messages. Okay, that means the alien containment would be buildable from the start.

I think autopsies are allowed. There's nothing "inhumane" about that. Though I haven't actually read the Geneva Conventions, so I don't think what they say about that. But for the purpose of the game, i say we allow autopsies right from the start.

[altugi]

Its not so complicated and maybe doesnt need events or secret labs.

***

What does a tactical combat mission produce?:

Dead human and alien bodies - anatomy, inner organs etc
Injured people and aliens - healing processes
Live humans and aliens - research behavior PLUS all the above

---

Broken Equippment -research material they are made of
Equippment - research design, functions, mechanism, PLUS the above

***

These we have at game start:
Container -default -enables equippment to be transported to base
Ballistics Lab -default -research weapons
Medi Bay -default -research healing processes
Morgue or Autopsy Room -default, capacity of three  bodies

Theyd already allow you to
transport equippment to the base
investigate equippment,
investigate dead or injured humans, find death causes and understand healing processes - imporved medi-kit? shorter recovery times?

***

In order to start advanced research I think of a tech-tree like this:

Alien Container -enables aliens to be transported to base
Due to Morgue or Autopsy room, you can research dead aliens, basic physionomy and biological structure, death causes -basics on alien life forms -enables design for more efficient weapon and ammo types?

Alien Contamination Room - You can keep live or injured aliens at the base
Due to medi bay you can research healing processes of injured aliens - increase impact of ammo?

Behavioristics Lab
-Enables you to research alien language
-Enables you to research behavior of certain alien types
-read alien documents, tap into communication lines?
-research psifare?

TBC

***

Other...

Special containers and labs might be introduced... You could claim some alien weapons to be radioactive at a certain degree or whateve,r and ask for special containers and labs to research them.

***

I also want to remind of the puzzle like thing that i offered for research. You can  return from missions with certain body or machine parts, and only if a certain number of parts or percentage of the whole is brought together, your scientists will have a sufficient basis to start with research on them. Otherwise they face a lack of data problem. This would increase the value of captured live aliens or whole equippment since you can start with all type of research immediately. This would make stun guns and grenades more important and maybe you could even make them part of the tech-tree, as they are so important in capturing live aliens.

[BTAxis]

Hmm, radioactive weapons? If you'd need to transport them in a special container, then what's the real use of researching the weapon, other than the basic technology involved? After all, you wouldn't be able to use them in battle (as there is no way to de-irradiate something except by waiting, usually waiting a VERY long time).

Also, one thing I'd like to mention here is the way the tech tree works. Hoehrer implemented it using reverse dependency. He claims it works well. But it basically means that once you collect one alien weapon, you're automatically able to research ALL weapons that are in the same weapon tier (plasma, tachyon, etc). You don't need any of the other weapons to research them since (according to Hoehrer) the scientists can design the weapons themselves. I'd rather require the weapons to be found first and then reverse-engineered, but right now it doesn't work that way. In the future, there may be fields that you can use to require one or more items. Just thought I'd mention it.

[altugi]

EDIT: Sorry, forgot to add an intro here... I was just elaborating more on the idea of a simple puzzle type research that could change the way in which we present the research feature in the game. It's not really the point here if it works in particular in this game. I just wonder if it would change the feel of research and make me it more immersive.

Assume that an alien is made up of 6 pieces... the torso, the head, 2 arms, 2 legs. If you have the head and click research, the ufopedia reveals certain info... say on brain structure, revealing certain info on psionic abilities or weaknesses. If you find two more pieces, say one leg and one arm, they reveal some info of their own.  But If you have arm AND torso and research their relation, you come up with info on, say, mechanism. If you have all pieces, then a whole body can be reconstructed and that reveals all info that can be obtained from the particular pieces + the mechanism of the whole (as single pieces wouldn't allow you to)

Then you can research types of wounds or you can observe heeling on an injured alien... and language, behavior etc on live aliens.

All this meaning, the entry in the Ufopedia would maybe have just one paragraph if you only have an arm; but the more you research other pieces and their relations, further paragraphs of the Ufopedia are unlocked. Also researching wounds could complete a table displaying which weapon causes which wounds. And researching behavior would display other info.

Sometimes not a whole item, but only the understanding of a certain piece might reveal another research topic. Like a investigation of a wound could reveal an upgrade for a piercing type weapon.

This mechanism could be nice to change the façade of the commonly used tech-tree implementation and could make the research part more interesting for the player as it requires more of his involvement. Also the outcome of combat actions had more influence on research.

[altugi]

Hmm, radioactive weapons? If you'd need to transport them in a special container, then what's the real use of researching the weapon, other than the basic technology involved? After all, you wouldn't be able to use them in battle (as there is no way to de-irradiate something except by waiting, usually waiting a VERY long time).

One thing we need to clear in order to understand each other better is, that at many times I rather want to point at a "function" of something I suggest, rather than its ways of implementation (the way we stage it). A funtion, in this case, is rather a class of a storytelling/game elements and it can be implemented (staged) in many ways. For example the "villain" is a function... in star wars this function is performed by the Darth Vader character, in Seven its performed by the psychopat character. But they both are of the same class and as a function they are means to create and maintain the conflict of these stories. So a "special purpose" container or a lab as a "function" is something that needs extra research or opens a somewhat distinct research path to follow. Its implementation can be "special" nuclear weapon, "special" biologic weapon... utilize whatever you can, as long as it is coherent in itself and in accordance with the games pattern and the "possibles" of that games world.

Another thing is that we shouldn't come up all the time with what would the case in real life is.  You can implement story elements or types of presentation that would ask us to forget everything what we know about real life... You can't be invisible - but Invisible Man can. See what I mean?
That doesn't mean that "anything goes", but it means "if you use certain ways, you can make it go".

[BloodMagus]

Altugi, prehaps a slighter simpler system of your idea could be used.

Rather then have an assortment of body parts that would give a mortician a headache, why not just have a system where you can do multple autopsies on the same type of alien corpse. Thus there'd be a a reason to have several corpses of the same alien.

i.e

The first time you do a autopsy you'd reveal basic information. The second time you'd have a chance of revealing more critical information such as weakness and vunerabilites. If you fail to uncover something, the chance of suceeding the next time around would increase. Once you were sucessful, the next critical bit of research would have a considerably lower chance of discovery.

To encourage autopsies later in the game, you could set it up so that certain advanced discovers would only be possible if other aliens had been significantly researched.

A similar system could be used with equipment and interrogation. Obviously the item would be destroy during the research. I think this would work rather well with weapons:
i.e the first set of research allows you to use the weapon, the second tidbit would allow you to reproduce it, and the third allow you to design weapons using the technology.

Moving off track for a brief moment:

I noticed that most of the plot/gameplay is based on the idea the aliens have already made a frontal attack. This was pretty much used in UFO Aftermath, and not recieved too well by XCOM fans.
One of the key features of the XCOM series is that the alien threat gradually built up (somewhat faster on the harder difficulty). You weren't thrust into a situation, instead you watched the situation grow and attempted to control it (initally without much success). The player was more involved because they were there from the beginning, when it was all grass roots. About midway the game explodes into full scale warfare, with the organisation having met maturity and grown to a small army.
In the finale, the aliens are on the run and the organisation is at its finest hour.

Rather then repeat the same old thing, I think attempts should be made to improve upon original ideas. Prehaps the Phalanx group can start out as a private organisation, with goals to prove that an alien threat exists and thus be sanctioned and funded by the UN. The existance of rival factions would also add flavour to the gameplay, not only fighting off the aliens but cults that wish help them. Additionally there might even be parts where your organisation is outlawed by the UN, and you're operating in secret.

[altugi]

Altugi, prehaps a slighter simpler system of your idea could be used.

Rather then have an assortment of body parts that would give a mortician a headache, why not just have a system where you can do multple autopsies on the same type of alien corpse. Thus there'd be a a reason to have several corpses of the same alien.

i.e

The first time you do a autopsy you'd reveal basic information. The second time you'd have a chance of revealing more critical information such as weakness and vunerabilites. If you fail to uncover something, the chance of suceeding the next time around would increase. Once you were sucessful, the next critical bit of research would have a considerably lower chance of discovery.

To encourage autopsies later in the game, you could set it up so that certain advanced discovers would only be possible if other aliens had been significantly researched.

Yeah, I also thought of research iterations that gradually increase the number of revealed paragraphs in the ufopedia + unlock new research topics. I just hadn't it written down as nice as you did. It sounds nice.

But I wanted to go for the puzzle type version for a while, just to see what comes out of it.  Somehow I feel it could be a nice way to make something different with the tech-tree... but of course it shouldn't turn into a puzzle game. However, I am not quite sure if I could manage to divide every item and unit into enough "functional" pieces... and of course another risk is that the tech-tree itself could turn into sort of a maze. I already felt it when I was writing it down. I think your suggestion is the easier way to do it and it maintains mystery equally well.

A similar system could be used with equipment and interrogation. Obviously the item would be destroy during the research. I think this would work rather well with weapons:
i.e the first set of research allows you to use the weapon, the second tidbit would allow you to reproduce it, and the third allow you to design weapons using the technology.i.e

I see, following sort of the logic of the alien research. It sounds pretty cool.

Rather then repeat the same old thing, I think attempts should be made to improve upon original ideas. Prehaps the Phalanx group can start out as a private organisation, with goals to prove that an alien threat exists and thus be sanctioned and funded by the UN. The existance of rival factions would also add flavour to the gameplay, not only fighting off the aliens but cults that wish help them. Additionally there might even be parts where your organisation is outlawed by the UN, and you're operating in secret.

A while ago I also proposed a war between two "secret services", similar to what you propose... but I think especially the motive I came up for the aliens was not quite the thing... and to be honest I just wrote it down in an hour, so it was far from being complete or so. Actually I like the "small scale organizations in secret engagement" more like the open and frontal war thing. You should give that post a read btw, I'd really like to hear what you think about it. I think its on page 2 or 3 of the "storyline" thread.

Additionally there might even be parts where your organisation is outlawed by the UN, and you're operating in secret.

Which is also a nice idea, given our storyframe would support such development in the story... Actually in a movie that would be a nice idea for the middle -the zero point of the character-. Phalanx is in such a bad situation that it even loses support of the UN, his initial partner... and from here up he it has to climb up the ladder to gain back a superior position to bring the game to a conlusion.

Your suggestions sound all pretty nice. Also thanks a lot for reading.

[BTAxis]

<snip>
See what I mean?

Um... No. I seriously have no idea what you're talking about. How does a movie character relate to having to transport radioactive weapons in a special box, BUT being able to use them on the battlefield just like that? See, I'm not thinking anything complicated here. It just doesn't make sense.

[BTAxis]

Additionally there might even be parts where your organisation is outlawed by the UN, and you're operating in secret.

Which is also a nice idea, given our storyframe would support such development in the story... Actually in a movie that would be a nice idea for the middle -the zero point of the character-. Phalanx is in such a bad situation that it even loses support of the UN, his initial partner... and from here up he it has to climb up the ladder to gain back a superior position to bring the game to a conlusion.

Let's go with this idea for a bit. Let's say that at a certain moment in the game, you actually lose your backing with the UN. What then is Phalanx' source of funding? How will it operate, now that it's no longer endorsed? Where do new recruits come from? What if the player wants to build a new base?

Basically, I don't see it happening because I don't really have answers to those questions. If Earth becomes your enemy, then it would feel pointless to shoot down UFOs, do terror missions and clear enemy bases. After all, nobody's going to reward you for it. And for reasons I've stated earlier in this thread, Phalanx operating "in secret" just isn't believable.

Towards the end of the game, though, that more or less does happen. Once you're at the end of the road, more and more earth territories will fall under the influence to the aliens, reducing funding and resources. This mechanism will force the player to launch the final assault on the mothership (or equivalent. We had this conversation elsewhere). I think that's important. Does anyone remember the endgame for Apocalypse, where you could just waltz into the alien dimension at the start of every week, shoot down all the UFOs and be safe for the rest of the week? Well, that's one anticlimactic endgame I definitely want to avoid. It should be more desperate, a good old Millennium-Falcon-Blows-Up-The-Death-Star-In-The-Nick-Of-Time last gambit.

[altugi]

I'm not thinking anything complicated here.

No, not complicated... rather too flat. You take it too literal. :-)

Look, when I am talking of a function, which is the case above, I refer to a universal class or method that is utilized in storytelling. Meaning, not the content, but rather the form is important here. You think of a form or a formula in which content could be presented. So when I talk of a special container "function", I refer to any additional storyline, initiated by a container that has a special purpose and opens a seperate branch of the tech-tree. You don't really need to know yet what content that branch will develope on, but you just need to know that it would create a further storyline or sidestory.

To give an example of what content this function could be used for, I said this COULD BE for example something based upon radioactive elements, causing several research items under this "radioactiveness" thing... this could be used to make-up some objects, which are then fed back into the game, creating overall depth and variety in gameplay. At some point, you could allow this particular branch to dry up and soon after you could start a function that utilizes the content "toxines"... Whatever the content is, the function counts here: The special container "function" is a form that you could utilize to create many additional branches in the tech-tree... and all would result in an additional storyline or sidestory.

Usually, someone more experienced with story stuff, would rather recognize the function, than the content. And then he would start to think what potential that function has, i.e, if other content could be used to fill it. But if you don't recognize the function and go directly over to the content, chances are, that you refuse the whole function, just because you didn't like the content. It's like you are throwing away a bottle of wine, because there is wine in it. Just empty the wine, and see if you can use the bottle to fill it with something that you like. Do you understand?

So, either you have to understand what a function is, or I have to stop to exemplify them, because otherwise you ignore the function part and go over to the content... and then it seems we can't follow each other.


***

And from the content thing here I come to the second problem: When you approach content, for example "radioactivity", you look at it in terms of realism. You say, it's not realistic that someone carries it in a special container, but then uses it without protection... because it takes centuries for radioactivity to dissapear. Ok, that is true.

But realism, or should I call it realicism is a problem when you approach games and stories. If you'd approach the Invisible Man story with realistic expectations, then the story is bullshit. "Come on, there are no invisible people, noone would believe such a story", you would say. But when you apply the appropriate storytelling techniques, then he becomes real... real in its own world.

So, being realistic, the radioactive thing is BS. But making use of the appropriate storytelling techniques you can make it feel real within its own fictional world. Because there the rules of the fiction exist. Fiction doesn't mean you can make up any rule for that fictional world. It rather means that every element utilized in it has to be possible in the setting that this world suggest to be real for itself. So superman is not realistic, because noone seems to recognize that clark kent is superman... just because of his glasses :-) But that what the story managed to make us believe to be true. So if you find a way, then yes, a radioactive element comes with a special container, but after that you go into war with that, without any protection, because the scientists managed to do it.

If we go to the root with this realism thing, then there is no reason even to make this game, since it is utterly bullshit. A squad of soldiers fighting aliens? C'mon, there are no aliens. But in ufoai there are, because that is the ufoai world. It builts upon this premise and makes it feel real. And when we move our unit, we don't think that it is just a bunch of pixels, illuminated by a electronic scanner a few hundert times a second... we think its our unit and call it by name. As I said, a story has to be real, not realistic.

Technically, there is nothing that you couldn't make feel real. You just need to figure out how. This is why I always say yes to any content offer and why I become especially excited when I see the function that shapes it.

You must say no, only if it feels wrong in regard to the game's world, but not if its wrong in the real world. If I forget to underline in the games design that in the ufoai world, scientist can de many unbelievable things, then the radioactivity thing get strange, because the real world calls for correction. But if in design I utilize scientists in an appropriate way for the "explaining" function, then the real world stays out. But you can also use protect-gear as the "explaining" function. Whatever solution you find that manages to deflect the questions that the real world calls, is fine.

Still not clear?

[BTAxis]

I'd like to correct you. I never used the word "realism". I said it makes no sense, which isn't the same thing. Sure, I allow for stuff that might not be considered "real". This is science-fiction, after all. But there's only so much stuff you can make up before it becomes, as you put it, bullshit. And the radioactivity example is such a case. You can't hide behind "well, in OUR world it works that way", because then your world simply isn't believable anymore. It's the difference between a good sci-fi movie with good special effects and Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon. The former is believable fiction, the latter is so stupid that you can't take it seriously. That's your problem, I think. You take ideas to a point where they stop being believable. It was that way with the alien contact thing, a few pages back. I objected to the aliens offering peace AND attacking at the same time because it's not believable. I objected to the secret society idea because it's not believable. But I did NOT object on the grounds of realism. Realism takes a back seat, for reasons you've pointed out. But believeability? A storyline is nothing without that.

[altugi]

And the radioactivity example is such a case.

I wrote eight paragraphs to explain that I talk about function and not content. Forget about radioactivity, it could be toxines or anything else. I just care about the extra branche in the tech-tree that could be opened under any special-purpose container. We dont like wine? We fill the bottle with something else. We think the bottle itself is unnecessary, we throw the bottle away.

That's your problem, I think. You take ideas to a point where they stop being believable.

When you think of solutions for story it happens that you start with or end up at extreme points. But that is not a big deal in itself. Since it is a process. Next morning you look from another perspective and say, well this doesnt sound as cute or logical as I thought last night when I wrote it. You can always take a step back, modify, rewrite or eventually throw it all into the bin.  

But you should allow people a bit to go through this process. We pose suggestion here and come with raw ideas. So talking about the ideas is cool.  Its nice to have feedback and you learn from it. And you strive to make it better. But I think we really dont need a design police around that just stops us at the first minute of every creative attempt.

[altugi]

And I stop this conversation now. Because its not about design anymore. Its seems to have turned into a debate of whos d*ck is longer. And that is really not what I meant to produce in this forum. My apologies to all that had to read through irrelevant messages.

[BTAxis]

I wrote eight paragraphs to explain that I talk about function and not content. Forget about radioactivity, it could be toxines or anything else.

But it wasn't. It was about radioactivity, and you just dodged the subject. You DID write eight partagraphs about function and not content, and then believed that somehow made it better. It didn't. I don't CARE about "functions". I care about a good storyline, which is what all your talk isn't producing (except that cain of events bit, that was all right).

So, before I'm going to talk about something else, I say to you: Forget about functions. Start looking at the issue at hand. If I ask you a question about radioactivity, give me an answer about radioactivity.

But you should allow people a bit to go through this process. We pose suggestion here and come with raw ideas. So talking about the ideas is cool.  Its nice to have feedback and you learn from it. And you strive to make it better. But I think we really dont need a design police around that just stops us at the first minute of every creative attempt.

I didn't mean to act like that, though it might seem that way. It's just that I have my own ideas about what the story should be like, and they're pretty different from most yours. You don't have to like that. But I'm not going to just say "that sounds interesting" when I think it's a bad idea. I'm critical. Deal with it.

[BTAxis]

My apologies to all that had to read through irrelevant messages.

Good, apology accepted. Now, let's start being constructive, shall we? There's work to be done in the area of the alien background. What I wrote up so far is that the aliens are a warlike species who like to conquer their neighbours, but maybe we should flesh that out a bit. Earlier, Level spoke about the alien language. I hadn't considered that yet. What if we do something with that? For example, what if it turns out a bit like this (excuse the pseudocode that I invented on the spot):

[event: after alien written language research]
The aliens turn out to use a written language that is uncannily similar to the old Egyptian hieroglyphs. Though most of the glyphs are radically different, some are almost verbatim. Phalanx scientists suggest a more detailed comparative study be undertaken at the old Egyptian buildings.

[mission: Giza]
In this scripted mission, Phalanx soldiers must secure the area near the Egyptian city of Giza. so scientists may study the pyramids in safety. Resistance is unexpectedly high, and as it turns out  the aliens have built a military installation in the area.

[event: after research on giza]
Scientists have made a stunning discovery. Not only do the ancient Egypian hieroglyphs resemple the alien language, but with new insights in the working of the alien language, the old texts may be re-interpreted. It seems the aliens are actually mentioned on the walls of the pyramids, where they are referred to as gods. This would indicate the aliens have been to Earth before, thousands of years ago. How this is possible, our scientists can't say, but they think the aliens must already have been a space-faring race back then.

[event: some time after the previous event]
Our scientists have improved their understanding of the alien language, and have begun to understand some of the messages the aliens are sending each other. Though most of the messages are obscure and don't help us much, it is clear that the aliens do not talk about the current conflict in terms of warfare. It seems more like business, which is a puzzler to our scientists. To find out more, we must interrogate an alien who has more knowledge of the operation than regular foot soldiers. We recommend you capture a live ranking officer aboard a Warship-class or higher UFO, so we can question him.

[event: after research on live alien officer]
The picture is becoming clearer. The officer we interrogated was not very cooperative and refused to say much at first, but we found ways to change his mind. As far as we understand it, he said the alien fleet is here for what roughly describes as "annexation". Apparently, from the aliens' point of view, Earth is rightfully part of the Antarean Empire. It seems they don't consider the current conflict an invasion. They see it as finishing up business. Together with the revelation we found at Giza, this leads us to research the Egyptian connection more thoroughly.

[insert all sorts of requirements here, be creative, people]

[event: after research on "The Egyptian Connection"]
All the pieces have fallen into place. This conflict starts five thousand years ago, at the dawn of the Egyptian civilization. During this time, the Antareans first came to earth. They found a primitive world, rich in natural resources but devoid of any useful inhabitants who could manage the planet for them. The aliens singled out the humans as the most likely creatures to rise to dominance on the planet, and decided to set up a development project.
The aliens approached the humans and, after years of effort, managed to close a deal with them. The aliens would give the humans power, in the form of technology, to help the humans grow and gain mastery over planet Earth. In return, the humans swore allegiance to the Antareans. The aliens calculated that in five thousand years, the human race would have developed far enough to be ready to serve their Antarean masters.
For a few thousand years, all went according to plan. The Egyptians rose to power, and built a mighty empire. On hindsigth, many of their cultural traits make a lot of sense in the knowledge that the aliens seedes their civilization. Slavery, for example, is a typically Antarean trait. The godlike status of the pharaos might also be lead back onto alien technology, as may the famous curses of mummified pharaos.
But the plan went awry. Rather than grow into their role as vassals of the Antarean Empire, the humans degraded into superstition and decadence. The alien technology broke down, and today almost nothing of it remains. The Egyptian civilization was overtaken by the Roman Empire, which in turn collapsed under the weight of its own decadence.
Today, there is nothing left of the legacy of the first alien visit to Earth. Nothing remains that tells us of the pact the humans made five thousand years ago. But the aliens have not forgotten. They claim Earth as their own, and they are not about to haggle.

[after this, the fight continues, and research focuses on how to effectively defeat the alien annexation fleet. Basic ideas have been put forward, for now we're going with a large mothership.]

So, thoughts?

Note: though I didn't mention it explicitly, it is implied that old Egyptian gods like Ra, Bast, Osiris, Ptah, Indra, etc. are in fact names of aliens who came to Earth in 3000BC.