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Author Topic: Design: Storyline  (Read 81550 times)

Offline Malick

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« Reply #75 on: May 27, 2006, 01:17:43 pm »
Regarding the application of the Geneva Conventions, remember the Laconia incident during WW2. Check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laconia_incident

"Now that it was apparent that the Americans would attack rescue missions under the Red Cross flag, Dönitz ordered that rescues were prohibited, survivors were to be left in the sea."

The german Kriegsmarine still applied some traditions : saving the lives of the crew of the boat they had just sank. And tradition is just what it is all about. After that event, forget your feelings, because the enemy does not seem to have any...

Malick

altugi

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« Reply #76 on: May 27, 2006, 01:31:56 pm »
How does this branche of the tech-tree develope until the event?

Biolab (default at game start)
       :arrow: completion of alien container research
                              :arrow: event with Geneva Convention

Does it just function as kind of a notification message then?

altugi

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« Reply #77 on: May 27, 2006, 01:42:45 pm »
Quote from: "Malick"
After that event, forget your feelings, because the enemy does not seem to have any...



Meaning, we do have some feelings before the event? I think the problem with this Convention thing is that it refers to a feeling that doesn' apply to the subject of this game.

Offline BTAxis

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« Reply #78 on: May 27, 2006, 06:07:48 pm »
What do you mean? It's not about feelings, it's about a set of rules that apply to warfare. That's all. And, until the event, those rules apply to the aliens. Afterwards, they don't.

Quote from: "altugi"
How does this branche of the tech-tree develope until the event?

Something like this:
Rescinding of Geneva Convention -> Biolab research and alien containment research -> live alien research

Offline BTAxis

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« Reply #79 on: May 27, 2006, 06:24:57 pm »
Quote from: "altugi"
Let's assume that the first time I play the game, it makes me happy to hear that I can do research on aliens, even if the reason why I couldn't have had it for 120 days doesn't make much sense to me. Despite the waiting for nothing, I can live with it. But imagine the same person playing the game a second time, a third, a fourth time: I'll have to wait for this dammit Geneva Convention event. If at least I would have been given a chance to make it happen earlier.

Well, sorry, but that's how X-COM games work. You sometimes have to wait until you get to uses some technology, or until some research becomes available. If you want it earlier, that's too bad. That's like saying you want all the technology right at the start of the game, because "why should I have to wait for it". Might as well start off the game as the winner.

Quote from: "altugi"
Why would you build a dam into something which obviously would have flown otherwise? For the sake of delaying it? For the sake of the event?

For the sake of delaying it, precisely. You want to keep new things coming towards the player at a steady trickle, not all at once. That's what keeps the game interesting. At the start of the game, you have plenty of research to do on alien corpses, alien weaponry and UFOs. But when the first wave of technology dries up, then what? Right, then you need something else popping up.

Quote from: "altugi"
If you built that dam into the game stream, either give a better explanation for it with a more believable background story, or give the player at least a chance to to make it happen with his own efforts. Otherwise you just force passiveness on him.

What's unbelievable about it? It makes perfect sense to me. And with that chain of events you came up with, it doesn't come out of the blue. I really don't agree with you that it "forces passiveness" on the player, because the player has a lot to do in the mean time. It's just that not everything that happens is a direct result of the player's actions. It would be boring if it was.

Quote from: "altugi"
Doesn't "unlocking a tech-tree" imply some player action that makes it happen?

No. Not in this case.

Quote from: "altugi"
In the way this event is put, we don't unlock research. We are arbitrarily granted to do research. So either it should be granted right after the first alien attacks have happened, then it doesn't feel arbitrary and is just a notification, sort of a reminder to not ignore the research feature. Or, if for whatever reason you want the event to be delayed for a while, you should present it as something that can be unlocked by meeting certain conditions. Granting it after quite a while based upon an arbitrary event shouldn't be our option here I think.

Okay, then we disagree on that. I think having everything depend on the player makes it boring, as the player could always follow the "best" strategy. If events happen without the playir having any influence on them, though, then the player whill have to cope with it, and that makes it more of a challenge. It's also more realistic. It makes no sense for something not to happen until the player decides it will.

Offline XCOMTurcocalypse

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« Reply #80 on: May 27, 2006, 07:59:19 pm »
XCOM Apocalypse had an in-built solution.Remember?


If the Player has earned whoop de do-ing high combat points and score and all the shit,the tech level of the invading alien forces increased enormously.When I made over 5000 in the first week,on Sunday they came with boomeroids and disrupter guns.Just ONE week later,with devastator gun-toting Skeletoids.

When I deliberately f***ed up,next week their tech level and attack numbers were same,I could even say,reduced.

See?If you mean business,talk the talk then walk the walk,the game deems you worthy of a sped-up tech tree.

If you are a n00b,you build and learn slowly.

altugi

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« Reply #81 on: May 27, 2006, 09:41:53 pm »
Quote from: "BTAxis"
Well, sorry, but that's how X-COM games work. You sometimes have to wait until you get to uses some technology, or until some research becomes available. If you want it earlier, that's too bad. That's like saying you want all the technology right at the start of the game, because "why should I have to wait for it". Might as well start off the game as the winner.


Of course you wait for things until they become available. But as long as the game has a pattern in how it makes you wait for things, its not waiting per se, its a rule. However, if the game makes an exception in its waiting pattern, then you ask yourself why it doesn't go according the rule that the game normally has. If the excuse is not convincing, then the waiting really becomes waiting. And well, I am sorry too, but its too bad that players ask themselves why they have to wait now, if waiting happens for a reason that does violate its own pattern. That is how it works in games.

Quote from: "BTAxis"
For the sake of delaying it, precisely. You want to keep new things coming towards the player at a steady trickle, not all at once. That's what keeps the game interesting. At the start of the game, you have plenty of research to do on alien corpses, alien weaponry and UFOs. But when the first wave of technology dries up, then what? Right, then you need something else popping up.


IMHO, if we want the game to climb gradually onto higher levels, we would do better if we improve the balance of our tech-tree. Artifical delays do not create balanced progress. Making things pop up at the right time is a matter of tech-tree balance and integrity. You don't say, lets have an event here that denies access to the other branch of the tech-tree, or there will be nothing left for the later stages. You try to arrange the tech-tree in such a way that this dry-up doesn't happen. And you think twice before you ever consider a "outside" solution like an event.

Quote from: "BTAxis"
What's unbelievable about it? It makes perfect sense to me. And with that chain of events you came up with, it doesn't come out of the blue. I really don't agree with you that it "forces passiveness" on the player, because the player has a lot to do in the mean time. It's just that not everything that happens is a direct result of the player's actions. It would be boring if it was.


See, its not that I have a fixation to kill this event thing :)  It's really written nice and I really liked to write a built-up for it. And it's really ok for me if we prefer to go with it. But I say it bears its risks if you use events to rod-balance a tech-tree, but the game doesn't have that pattern in general. And you know, saying that the player has many other things to research meantime, is exactly the point why you force him into passiveness. You don't put a clause on other research, but when it comes to live aliens you say "my friend, you must wait a bit now, because we want't things to be interesting in this game."

Quote from: "BTAxis"
Okay, then we disagree on that. I think having everything depend on the player makes it boring, as the player could always follow the "best" strategy. If events happen without the playir having any influence on them, though, then the player whill have to cope with it, and that makes it more of a challenge. It's also more realistic. It makes no sense for something not to happen until the player decides it will.


I don't say it should happen when the player decides it should. And I don't say that everything should depend on the player. I say you can't just decide to make a thing "not happen" because you think the player needs to be challenged now. It's not realistic at all.

First things first: If we want the research to flow in a balanced way, without things drying out, we first have to try to design the tech-tree accordingly. Have appropriate research times or a prequisites structure within the tech-tree, which create the necessary "delays" in a natural way. Artificial delays such as events shouldn't be our first option to solve this issue.

Yes I agree. We disagree in this :lol: As long as it doesn't result in avoiding each other, its not a big deal to disagree though.  :wink:

thomash833152

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« Reply #82 on: May 27, 2006, 10:09:54 pm »
As an alternative, how about when you do get around to performing live research it provokes the aliens and leads to the next level of alien attacks?
In other words, the _aliens_ take the gloves off.

Tom

altugi

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« Reply #83 on: May 27, 2006, 11:59:51 pm »
Quote from: "XCOMTurcocalypse"


If the Player has earned whoop de do-ing high combat points and score ...snip... ,the tech level of the invading alien forces increased ...snip....

When I deliberately ...snip :lol:...  up,next week their tech level and attack numbers were same,I could even say,reduced.


This is also a nice way to create balance, challenge and rythm. Would it be difficult to write code that increases or decreases alien strenght according to the players success rate? I think the difficulty levels are already based on code with a similar function. You would need to make it  more "sensitive" to player status, uh?

I don't know how it works and if it is doable, but Mattn and Hoehrer surely would be able to explain the pros and cons of such a thing.


I suggest the following algorithm:
if player reaches status x, then enable alien feature y. :P hehehe

altugi

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« Reply #84 on: May 28, 2006, 12:38:37 am »
Quote from: "thomash833152"
As an alternative, how about when you do get around to performing live research it provokes the aliens and leads to the next level of alien attacks?
In other words, the _aliens_ take the gloves off.

Tom


Nice idea.

It would fit well, in particular when we would decide to have the secret lab in the game, as the story would develope in a stimulus-response fashion. As you now can provide a reasonable motive, increased alien aggression would not bear the risk to be seen as a designer-trick to keep the story difficult.

Also, it would be a nice additional penalty for illegal research, and wouldn't just keep things with a rather typical running costs penalty.

Offline BTAxis

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« Reply #85 on: May 28, 2006, 01:29:47 am »
Quote from: "altugi"
Quote from: "XCOMTurcocalypse"


If the Player has earned whoop de do-ing high combat points and score ...snip... ,the tech level of the invading alien forces increased ...snip....

When I deliberately ...snip :lol:...  up,next week their tech level and attack numbers were same,I could even say,reduced.


This is also a nice way to create balance, challenge and rythm. Would it be difficult to write code that increases or decreases alien strenght according to the players success rate? I think the difficulty levels are already based on code with a similar function. You would need to make it  more "sensitive" to player status, uh?

I don't know how it works and if it is doable, but Mattn and Hoehrer surely would be able to explain the pros and cons of such a thing.


I suggest the following algorithm:
if player reaches status x, then enable alien feature y. :P hehehe

In moderation, this effect could work, but the game should definitely NOT adapt itself to the player in any big way. If, to put it in XCOMTurcocalypse's words, the player is a n00b, then the player should simply select an easier difficulty setting. If the game would become easier just because the player was having a setback, then where's the drive to play it safe? Where's the need to keep your soldiers alive? In fact, it might encourage players to intentionally play badly to keep the difficulty down (as XCOMTurcocalypse did, in fact). I don't want that to happen.

But if you approach it from the other way, then it could be interesting. Make the difficulty go up if the player turns out to be overwhelmingly good. But again, in moderation. On "easy", the game should be easy no matter how strong the player is.

Offline BTAxis

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« Reply #86 on: May 28, 2006, 01:42:45 am »
Quote from: "altugi"
Of course you wait for things until they become available. But as long as the game has a pattern in how it makes you wait for things, its not waiting per se, its a rule. However, if the game makes an exception in its waiting pattern, then you ask yourself why it doesn't go according the rule that the game normally has. If the excuse is not convincing, then the waiting really becomes waiting. And well, I am sorry too, but its too bad that players ask themselves why they have to wait now, if waiting happens for a reason that does violate its own pattern. That is how it works in games.

I want to clear up a misunderstanding here. My aim is NOT to make the player sit around with nothing to do until the game allows him to, as you seem to think. Rather, I want to keep the player from being able to access the entire tech tree at the start of the game. When the event happens and the live alien research tree opens up, the player should not be done researching all the stuff he could research before the event yet. So there shouldn't be any "pointless waiting" involved.

Quote from: "altugi"
IMHO, if we want the game to climb gradually onto higher levels, we would do better if we improve the balance of our tech-tree. Artifical delays do not create balanced progress. Making things pop up at the right time is a matter of tech-tree balance and integrity. You don't say, lets have an event here that denies access to the other branch of the tech-tree, or there will be nothing left for the later stages. You try to arrange the tech-tree in such a way that this dry-up doesn't happen. And you think twice before you ever consider a "outside" solution like an event.

You're really, really wrong about this. If this were a 4X game, I would agree, but it isn't. More on that below.
Of course the tech tree should itself provide a gradual progress through the storyline, but an outside event affecting the tech tree are plain, clean necessary in this type of game (though this particular event, I will concede, isn't).

Quote from: "altugi"
See, its not that I have a fixation to kill this event thing :)  It's really written nice and I really liked to write a built-up for it. And it's really ok for me if we prefer to go with it. But I say it bears its risks if you use events to rod-balance a tech-tree, but the game doesn't have that pattern in general. And you know, saying that the player has many other things to research meantime, is exactly the point why you force him into passiveness. You don't put a clause on other research, but when it comes to live aliens you say "my friend, you must wait a bit now, because we want't things to be interesting in this game."

It's not as if the live alien research is really holding up the player's progress through the tech tree. The technology research tree and the live alien research tree should not come together until long after the event. So the player really isn't left waiting.

Quote from: "altugi"
I don't say it should happen when the player decides it should. And I don't say that everything should depend on the player. I say you can't just decide to make a thing "not happen" because you think the player needs to be challenged now. It's not realistic at all.

I'm saying the opposite, though. You make things happen to give the player a challenge. You make UFOs appear. You make bigger aliens appear. You make better weapons appear on the aliens' side. All this is completely unrelated to the player's progress through the tech tree (and before you argue this, it must be. Else it can and will be exploited). On higher difficulties, these "events" will happen earlier in time, giving the player less time to prepare, thus increasing the challenge (again, it's not about waiting. Time is not on the player's side!). At first glance, that might seem to be comparing apples with oranges, but it isn't. Those events, too, open up new parts of the tech tree (new weapons to research, new aliens to poke at). It's the same thing, except in this case the tech tree is opened up for free, so there's no "challenge" involved.

Quote from: "altugi"
First things first: If we want the research to flow in a balanced way, without things drying out, we first have to try to design the tech-tree accordingly. Have appropriate research times or a prequisites structure within the tech-tree, which create the necessary "delays" in a natural way. Artificial delays such as events shouldn't be our first option to solve this issue.

Most of it will be done this way. But as I illustrated above, you can't NOT impose certain restrictions that are lifted as time passes. Because if you did, all the player would have to do is build a massive amount of labs and research the whole tech tree in a minimum amount of time. That would lead to paradoxes like X-COM having advanced alien weaponry before the aliens did. That's what I meant with my 4X comment. In X-COM games, you are always running behind on the aliens, no matter how fast you run. You can momentarily catch up, but you cannot overtake. You can do that in 4X games.

Now, with that said, there obviously will be bottlenecks, during which labs will sit idle. I'm thinking about needing a high-ranking alien commander to research, or needing to complete certain missions first. I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing. Research isn't the whole game. The tactical battles are what it's all about, and they will be plentiful, research or no research.

Offline XCOMTurcocalypse

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« Reply #87 on: May 28, 2006, 07:43:42 pm »
Btaxis is right.Accessing the tech tree in all of a sudden is only for a Starcraft maniac.ANd yes,the most important thing in XCOM series is,you can never catch up with the aliens (at least in weapon tech,since I had the entire Alien Dimension overrun with Annihilators in Moderate setting,no aliens could transport themselves to Mega Primus except ONCE in a week,for the game builds alien crafts at every Monday unless you blew up their factory.Still the Entrophy Gun gave me nightmares.)

However BTaxis,the game should have at least a mode or a feature which is n00b friendly.When I look back at the gaming community,very few people recognize the value of XCOM since the series had a stunning ruthlessness about them:

You were outgunned,outmaneuvred,outnumbered,outfinanced.(since Aliens were simply infinite in numbers,equipment and guns)

You must outsmart them.Well,XCOM fans do that for sure,but this game doesn't have to be a game exclusively made for XCOM fans.A bit dulling the Alien juggernaut can spawn a fan group enough to spark interest in this forgotten legendary series.

Offline BTAxis

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« Reply #88 on: May 29, 2006, 01:55:24 am »
Quote from: "XCOMTurcocalypse"
However BTaxis,the game should have at least a mode or a feature which is n00b friendly.

I completely agree. And if it's up to me, that n00b-friendly feature is called "easy difficulty setting".

Offline Level

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« Reply #89 on: May 30, 2006, 09:04:22 am »
I think Alien containment should be available from the start, but can be used only for detention as letting them die would be worse.
When built you could get a message that says torture etc. is not allowed.
Basic interrogations like Alien language and maybe the purpose of missions can be done.

After several terror missions, and the rescue mission, you can then build the Bio Lab? (Isn’t the Bio Lab for autopsies, are they not allowed?), do more “Intense” interrogations and live research.

I don’t think a secret lab would fit or be necessary as the things you would research are ether plot related and should wait or are just useful information that does not really matter.