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altugi

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« Reply #105 on: May 31, 2006, 01:06:31 pm »
Quote from: "BTAxis"
Quote from: "altugi"
My apologies to all that had to read through irrelevant messages.


Good, apology accepted.



Silly, that wasnt meant for you  :)

altugi

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« Reply #106 on: May 31, 2006, 02:35:31 pm »
I have a question in particular to Mattn and Hoehrer.

As people who are coding all the stuff, I wonder what flexibility you would allow for the tech-tree. I have to admit that I rather follow my own desires right now.

However it would be good to know better how you look at things. Do you have definately decided how the tech-tree should work (BTAxis mentioned one of Hoehrers preferences regarding the tech-tree) and is code designed to only support your recent ideas about the tech-tree, or would you/the code allow for flexibility at a certain degree? I want to know that, because you are the ones that are going to write the stuff that will make the ideas work, and its after all lots of work to sit down and do it. So ideas should meet at least the level of complexity that you want to stick with. Also the time you can afford for certain things is an important factor.

I'd like to know about anything else that the code you plan to produce wouldn't allow for...

Thanks

Offline BTAxis

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« Reply #107 on: May 31, 2006, 03:00:41 pm »
As a result of an earlier discussion about that "gloves are off" thing, I think a mechanism was added (or planned) that allows for the engine to count events. I don't know exactly how it works, or if it's even in yet, though.

I said this before, but currently the tech tree does not allow for items to be necessary for a research topic. More on that here.

Otherwise, I'm also pretty interested to know.

Offline Mattn

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« Reply #108 on: May 31, 2006, 03:03:22 pm »
Quote from: "BTAxis"
As a result of an earlier discussion about that "gloves are off" thing, I think a mechanism was added (or planned) that allows for the engine to count events. I don't know exactly how it works, or if it's even in yet, though.


the counting is implemented as far as i know - but you have to ask hoehrer for more infos about this topic.

Offline XCOMTurcocalypse

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« Reply #109 on: May 31, 2006, 09:28:05 pm »
A small addition.After completing research in one category,we could have a human interpretation weapon.Like when we learn about plasma gun,pistol,rifle,we could develop plasma shotgun,or a similar thingy.

Or Tachyon blaster,technically a bazooka with a tachyon explosion.

and :

Quote
For a few thousand years, all went according to plan. The Egyptians rose to power, and built a mighty empire. On hindsigth, many of their cultural traits make a lot of sense in the knowledge that the aliens seedes their civilization. Slavery, for example, is a typically Antarean trait. The godlike status of the pharaos might also be lead back onto alien technology, as may the famous curses of mummified pharaos.


Stargate,anyone?No,Antareans must be morons not to monitor a tiny sword wielding empire against Romans,raiders and stuff.

I believe we should use a lost continent,like Mu,Olothae or somesuch city found in Lovecraft Books.THat dude KNOWS how to make Alien-Human relations.Fghtahn!Fghtahn!Aiyeee-Nyarlahotep!

Or Aliens could visit BEFORE the Ice Age,and lose contact during that Age.

altugi

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« Reply #110 on: May 31, 2006, 10:10:10 pm »
Remember my first post with the secret phalanx thing? When I had this story down with the aliens installing some devices on earth, I was thinking that these devices could have maybe caused the Ice Ages. Say they could be sort of cooling aggregates. (However, I could not find an idea why it was good for aliens to have Ice Ages continuing here... maybe it was a way to "reserve" the earth for themselves, because it seems that Ice Ages do not prove to be very good settings for civilizations to grow.)

As far as I know there have been four Ice Ages in the last 4 or 5 million years and inbetween there were short periods of 30-40 thousand years. But only in the last break the earth witnessed something like civilizations.

So I thought it might be an idea to say that these devices had a duration of one million years or so (working with nuclear energy? thus a chance to intoduce radioactivity into the tech-tree?), and then they have to be renewed. And this explains the few thousand years inbetween, since aliens need to come here from far, re-charge the devices, need to make sure that the installed devices work etc.

Until this last break between the ice ages it all worked well for the aliens, but this time a little problem occured. One of the species on earth developed civilizations: The humans. A million years ago they were rather ape like. So when the last group of aliens came  approximatley 3000 BC, to check the status of the cooling aggregates, to their surprise they found a few civilizations in Mesopotamia, Egypt, the Ganges, the Yellow River (China) etc... They werent sure how to solve that problem, but as these were rather underdeveloped civilizations they didnt smash them, but rather experimented with them a bit. Like teaching cuneiform writing etc. They thought they could control these civilizations, or they thought that these wont pose a threat, so they didnt destroy them. But the development in the last 5000 years didnt leave them any other chance than to attack humans, because these civilizations seemed to grow too fast and already started to exhaust some of the sources which were meant to be reserved for themselves. So their goal is to eliminate the human race and re-install the Ice Age conditions.

Something along these lines...

Thought

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« Reply #111 on: May 31, 2006, 10:12:34 pm »
If I might break into this discussion, I would like to make a few suggestions, particularly to the Mumbai incident (and subsequently, altugi's idea about Phalanx v Alien "Phalanx"). It has been commented that if the aliens were capable of such an attack then an uppity upstart organization like Phalanx wouldn't have a hope of defeating them. This is quite true, if the aliens were capable of performing such an attack on a regular basis. The key to winning almost any war, especially a war of invasion, is to destroy the morale of the opponent.

In short, what if the Mumbai incident was the alien equivalent of going "Hiroshima & Nagasaki” on humanity? That is, they staged a dramatic attack that they are incapable of following up in a similar manner. They had absolutely no intention of occupying the city, but rather they wanted to make humans believe that they are an unstoppable force. Imagine that after weeks of heavy fighting, as humans take back the city block by block, they continuously see mangled human corpses, destroyed buildings, flaming wrecks, but slowly they begin to notice something is missing. There isn't a single dead alien, there isn't a single bolt from one of their machines, to prove that they were actually there. What if it appeared that they weren't driven out of the city but choose to withdraw (as indicated by lack of corpses).

Now this isn't to say that in reality the aliens didn't sustain any damage, just that it appears to the public that they didn't. Indeed, it might trigger some groups to claim that the attack was entirely a ploy by the government (after all, there would be no hard physical proof of aliens in the city). In short, it would become known as the Phantom Invasion. A symbol of alien power (which opens up the possibility of Phalanx researching the event and eventually discovering that it was staged and that the Aliens can't actually throw such overwhelming might against humans). From what I have gathered, the aliens only have one (or, at any rate, a limited number) of colony ships waiting in the solar system. They have finite resources and as such are actually at a disadvantage to the humans, who have all the power of a race to throw against the invaders.

The aliens know that they don't have the "manpower" to actually occupy the ground, so they have to make the humans think that they have already lost. Basically, the aliens know that humans will win the war by not loosing (that is, as long as humans are around resisting, then we are winning). This can still preserve the feel of an escalating combat system (as with X-Com), where the aliens are trying to establish a foothold with limited resources in order to amass the materials necessary to increase their robotic army, while preserving the original “they’ve bombed m’bai!” color.

Additionally, in this future world, it sounds like the world's military has been left to atrophy. Peacetime generals are incompetent enough as it is, but a fighting force that hasn't seen heavy combat in decades isn't capable of picking it up at the drop of a hat. Add to that the fact that militaries always prepare of the last war (such as France building the world's largest trench system right before WWII) and humans wouldn't really have a hope of a full scale military reaction.

Besides, how does one mobilize a limited fighting force to defend every human settlement? The military would protect major cities, key strategic points, but you'd still need a highly mobile reactionary force to defend everyone else. Thus, Phalanx. It wouldn't be designed to fight a traditional war with the aliens. Indeed, it isn't even David and Goliath syndrome; it would be mosquito and goliath. Phalanx wouldn't see that it has the ability of actually defeating the enemy, but it could distract it enough so as to give humanity time to think of something. They don’t plan to drive the aliens back by brawn but rather by brain.

Since it was brought up, in this world of 2084 where peace rules doubleplusgood, wouldn't all nuclear weapons have been disarmed and stored? Indeed, even assuming some of them could be rearmed, they would be in such a sorry state of condition that they would be more of a threat to humans trying to use them than Aliens. Depending on if Fission power is even still used, producing more nuclear warheads could take such resources and time as to be totally impractical.

As for Phalanx itself, if it was up against such an overwhelming enemy, it seems like its goal wouldn't be so much as to defeat the enemy, but to find out how to beat the enemy (different focus). This does include protecting innocents from terror attacks and preventing governments from being infiltrated (in classic X-Com style) but each action is taken with the intent of determining enemy weaknesses, not so much killing the enemies. Indeed, I would expect that as soon as Phalanx discovers new technology that that information would be passed along to the military and that it would see all sorts of field action. Some people have wondered about its role in the world prior. Perhaps I missed it, but why should it even exist prior? Some form of it is good, perhaps the U.N. had passed the "Phalanx Protocols" decades ago but they were never implemented (like so many UN resolutions). After the attack on Mumbai, or maybe after the first alien appearance 3 days earlier, the Phalanx Protocols were thrown into effect. Within hours, certainly within days, a commander had been selected and it began to operate out of established military bases until its own structures could be built. Since after the Mumbai incident humanity would need a morale boost, whoever Phalanx reports to wanted a symbolic victory and fast. That commander failed and was replaced (sort of like in the Civil war, with Lincoln going through generals like bread). Thus where the player picks up Phalanx has been in existence for a little while, its first base is ready to be built, but it has yet to score a victory (and the player has to get one soon or fail).

Indeed, since the need for a human victory is so critical, other organizations like Phalanx might be formed by other groups. Perhaps the riches individuals in the world pool their resources to create “X-Com” (as a reference to the spiritual parent of UFO:AI, which should be within fair use laws) or “Ex-Calibur.” Perhaps private states formed similar units to specifically protect their territory. These organizations might occasionally help Phalanx, but they could also be infiltrated (it might be interesting to have missions where the enemies are actually human turncoats).

Curiosity, but how long have the aliens been watching earth? 5,000 years is not old enough (humans had technology well before then). Indeed, Egypt has been “civilized” in one form or another for about 12,000 years. However, f we went with a multi-millennium time line, then were could throw in Chariots of the Gods mythos and include “archeological” missions were Phalanx has to find and retrieve certain alien storage devices hidden in the Sphinx, Pyramids, the Mediterranean, Atlantis, Lemuria, Mu, Aztec temples, Templar Churches, etc. That is, the aliens were here, but they also left information storage devices (as well as other devices of power) that humans can use to further their understanding of the aliens. This would be more than just a single mission or two to establish the Egyptian connection (though a more mythological connection might be advisable, such as Atlantis being a floating alien city or some such, from which they influenced the Egyptians, rather than being in Egypt itself). Sort of like the artifact missions in TFTD, but focusing on search and retrieval rather than search and destroy. Such mission might even open up research avenues, and it might also diversity the sort of people working in Phalanx to include more than just “scientists” and “engineers.” You might need “Historians/Archeologists” to point you in the right direction for finding these artifacts and “Linguists/mathematicians” to crack the alien language and to encrypt your own messages in greater complexity (because the aliens would be trying to do the same, right?)

But as for the aliens finishing “business,” don’t forget that under the Egyptian connection they only made plans with one part of humanity. They might be finishing up business, but they are also taking care of usurpers. Those uppity Greco-Romans, those savage Germanics, Sumeria and Persia, China and the Americas, they aren’t under such a contract. If we want an earlier connection, personally I would recommend a more passive role in human history. They were here to research the planet, find out if it was even worth keeping on their star charts. Besides, from what I have gathered about these aliens, would they have even bothered making a deal with humans? They believe that they are superior, and as such they may well believe that Earth is theirs by divine right and that subservience is the natural state of all other species (including humans). Or perhaps they are all just Xenophobes.

And finally (to make a long, disconnected post longer and more chaotic), in terms of alien technology, would it be possible to design similar but alternate variations on the weapons? One thing I never liked about X-Com was that humans only advanced through mimicry. Oh they got lasers/gauss weapons, but then there were plasma/sonic and for all of humanities supposed creativity, they weren’t improved upon. While human interpretations of weapons (like the above mentioned plasma shotgun or Tachyon bazooka) might be interesting, adjusting weapon stats to fit humans would still be a nice touch. That is, let us say that physically the aliens are fairly weak, thus an alien rifle has to be lighter than a human could carry. As such, it is less powerful. The human version would be more powerful but perhaps the greater power would affect recoil/accuracy. A basic pallet swap would allow for the same models to be used for both but with an easily recognizable difference. Also offers players a little more in terms of choice, “mmm… these aliens are tough, so the Tachyon Rifle H would be nice, but those nasty Crystalides that are with them are just to scary to risk missing… guess I will have to go with the Tachyon Rifle A.”

I do really like XCOMTurcocalypse’s suggestion of a Lovecraftian theme, but I am not sure how we’d even go about implementing it.

Just a,

Thought

Offline XCOMTurcocalypse

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« Reply #112 on: May 31, 2006, 11:15:41 pm »
Plus the explanation why aliens forgot to destroy us during the WWII,or earlier before we ruined the ecology.Visiting Egyptians and forgetting to monitor human expansion is just plain stupid.


I suggest an ancient city built deep within the Ural Mountains which got ruined during the Ice age.

Other ideas:

Mariana Rift (Alien city)

Mount Vesuvius (Alien city)

The Labyrinth of these Greek dudes (children brought in are used as Test subjects in the Laboratory deep within Labyrinth.Minotaur was a droid with a shell resembling a bull to scare humans and carried the children to the Lab,Theseus learned and used EMP grenade on Minotaur.EMP Grenade is carried in our culture as a mythical Ariadne's Clew.)

Hittite Ziggurats (Alien-Human city)

the place where the Legend of Beowulf took place.(once again,a human fights against an alien)

An underground base in the Temple of Zeus (Alien Human Town)

Northern Korea (maybe thats why they are isolating themselves)

A set of caves within the Himalayan Chains.Tibetian Monks tried to keep some Aliens inside the caves asleep,and a secret to the outside world.But after some missions,Dalai Lama comes and tells you this secret.Good for some VERY dark,deep cavern missions.

Dark side of the Moon (not the album)

Sun's core,the Big Spot on Jupiter or at least Earth's core (uh...ok I'll go to sleep)

altugi

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« Reply #113 on: May 31, 2006, 11:46:37 pm »
A problem we might face when we have many unique locations is that, accordingly, we would need the unique maps for them. If there are enough skilled people in this project that can do mapping and can also add the significant landmarks to the maps + the appropriate landscape design and interior design, then it is not a problem.

But we should also think of the worst case scenario in which we don't have these mappers and have to stick with the current maps, which are mostly "neighborhood" maps.

Somehow I think it would be good to have a plain stand-alone story that works fine with the current assets. And we should design the special events and mission in such a way that they are like modules that can be added onto the plain storyline, rather being an essential part of it right from the start. Otherwise we face risk that the story gets bound to content that simply can't be realized due to lack of means in the dev team.

Offline BTAxis

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« Reply #114 on: May 31, 2006, 11:48:22 pm »
Quote from: "XCOMTurcocalypse"
Plus the explanation why aliens forgot to destroy us during the WWII,or earlier before we ruined the ecology.Visiting Egyptians and forgetting to monitor human expansion is just plain stupid.

Hm, yeah, true. Though you could make up any number of reasons why the monitoring force (supposing there was one) would be recalled. Civil wars, etc. It may sound a little too convenient, though, so maybe we'd better not do something like that. Believeablility again.
But let's reverse the situation. Let's say the aliens DID post a guard dog. And let's say this guard dog noticed how humanity was progressing a little too rapidly for comfort (after all, humans really haven't progressed much technologically until the last two centuries or so. It was all swords and sticks from ancient history all the way up to the middle ages). The alien fleet that's attacking Earth in the game would be a contingency force, meant to stamp us back into the stone age. How's that?

By the way, I don't know Stargate. If my scenario resembles it, it's pure coincidence.

Thought, about the Egyptian civilization, they might have been civilized 12,000 years ago, but the pyramids and other structures didn't get built until after 3000BC (based on this. That's mainly the reason why I picked that period. I also considered other peoples, like the Incas, but they're not as romantic.

I like the idea of the aliens trying to make themselves appear more powerful than they actually are. It would fit in with the contingency idea I described in this post, too, BUT we'd have to get rid of alien FTL. Consider the watchdog sending off the alert in, say, 1800AD. The task force would then be dispatched with something like Victorian England in mind. But what they find as they arrive 280 years after the alert was sent is an organized, advanced civilization. It's not an option to call for reinforcements, so the aliens try to suppress the humans by winning a psychological victory.

Not going into the rest of your post in detail, but you make some really good points in there. Though you have to allow for at least some far-fetchedness, because the player still has to Save The World(tm). It's not much fun if you're playing the distraction.

Offline BTAxis

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« Reply #115 on: May 31, 2006, 11:53:34 pm »
Quote from: "altugi"
A problem <snip> dev team.

This is absolutely true. If we are to build up the storyline in a modular way like that, though, then we'll inherently lack story arc integrity. That doesn't have to be a bad thing, this game is more than story alone. But let's give it a try.

So, for the basic storyline framework we have:
- building bases
- responing to UFOs, terror missions, alien bases
- mimicking alien weaponry and, possibly, modifying their designs
- once powerful enough, big showdown. Possibly at alien mothership or moonbase.

Did I miss anything?

altugi

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« Reply #116 on: June 01, 2006, 12:26:49 am »
Quote from: "BTAxis"
If we are to build up the storyline in a modular way like that, though, then we'll inherently lack story arc integrity.


Yeah, integrity of later modules would be a major problem. But it's worth a try since it would make life easier for coders (and almost anyone else) I believe. If we have a plain story that works with the current codebase, chances are that we can go for modules that re-use this base or require only little code from scratch... unique storylines with unique content would be quite coder-friendly and would rather require the efforts of artists, since once the assets are finished, they work with the same code.

Actually what came now in my mind is, that you could have a group of modules, but that the players decisions during the plain story, would determine which modules are activated into the game. You could play many game sessions and still there would be some new modules (or storylines to discover) ;-)

Quote from: "BTAxis"


Did I miss anything?


We have basic soldier stats
An event scheduler...

ummm, what else??

Offline BTAxis

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« Reply #117 on: June 01, 2006, 12:32:06 am »
We're having difficulty coming up with ONE decent storyline. I don't think we should be considering multiple ones at this point.

altugi

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« Reply #118 on: June 01, 2006, 12:49:35 am »
So do you think it could work like this:

Plain story: a game mostly based on "neighborhood rescue" type tactical combat and Ufo interceptions, until the point where the player finds the alien mothership on the dark side of the moon (the source of all enemy attacks). Tech-tree research reveals already an important part of basic story elements like what the aliens are like, what weapons and technology they use etc. Also basicly we know that Phalanx reports to the UN and goes to special missons to rescue civilians, rather than engaging in the battlefield. So we need something very simple that does not exceed the possibilities that we have at hand.

Modules: They COULD have
-their own stories, which add something to the plain story and gives it depth... like revealing something about the backstory of the aliens interest in our planet  (but still without any modules, the plain story should makes sens)
-branches unlocked in the tech-tree, that reveal unique research items and eventually introduce this items for use... these would add depth to the tech-tree and the different arrays (weapons, vehicles etc) we have already at hand... but even without the unique items, basic array is sufficient to maintain the plain story.
-New unique units dicovered(?)... new types of aliens, some of them even just one-shot types, that dissappear after the particular module is played to end
-new types of base facilities in order to hunt down the mystery of that particular module... say the Egypt module would start with a mission where you discover something about language, but the follow up would require a linguistics lab, from here you would be able to research a parser or whatever...

Following the coder-friendly approach, many assets part of module could be also re-used in other modules with little modification... like once you have a parser or whatever, it can be utilized in another module... that other module would require you to research an upgrade for the parser...

Also chance is, that we could create "hybrid" modules that are based on two former modules, but which have their own outcome.

Options seem to be plenty.

I think we REALLY need Mattn and Hoehrers feedback for this...

altugi

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« Reply #119 on: June 01, 2006, 12:57:49 am »
Quote from: "BTAxis"
We're having difficulty coming up with ONE decent storyline. I don't think we should be considering multiple ones at this point.


Yeah, first plain story...