What Alien Invasion needs in order to replace XCOM1 as the best game

[BTAxis]

Aight, let me spell it out for you. Your second (was it?) post in this thread essentially came down to "the devs don't know how to make a game, they just think making lots of 3D will make it good". That is extremely insulting, and that is what pissed me off. You clearly don't know much about how we've come to where we are, yet you presume to tell us we're doing it wrong.

[odie]

To BTAxis:

Erm, Odie, I think you're missing the point. He was saying the game was bad BECAUSE it uses 3D graphics. Which isn't true, it's just the old "blah blah 3D graphics are all that matters in games these days blah blah need to go back to the old days when games had to be good to be successful blah blah" argument, except he doesn't know what he's talking about and is just trying to seem like a "better gamer" than the rest of us.

X-COM was a great game. It also had its flaws no matter what anyone says. UFO:AI aims to be a different game, and you can like that or not, but if you don't like it why are you even still here?

Ah, indeed, i think i missed the point altogether..... my bad. I reread the post and realised what he meant - that the team should not be focusing on 3D and instead on the gameplay and 'other areas'..... my bad.

which brings me to the following feedback then....


Fistleaf,

Okie, i think i had enuf of hearing your comment after 6 entries..... and after your 2nd and last comment to BTAxis. Even though BT and I do not always agree on everything, you might want to know that he IS the spokesman for the dev team....... and FYI, he IS the admin. i.e. He can simply Shut U Up and PBan u from forum.

With that establish, here's what i thnk of the past posts u had:

First off, let me say i did went thru all your posts (6) and i ma listing 5 of em (relevant to responses).

Currently, once the dropship is targeted by a UFO, it is most probably the end of the dropship with everyone on board.  This is not fun, especially when you can only hire a few soldiers every month.  There should be a chance for the dropship to escape, maybe in the form of an expensive upgrade installed on the dropship.

On this point, probably becos of the fact u r new, u should know that there is such a thing as strategy. U CAN escape, just depending on your distance on the nearest base. (Btw, i do not even know the version of the UFOAI u r running..... and the OS you are running this on).

Again on the latter part of that same comment..... its due to a lack of experience in the game that u should realise that this IS UFOAI, and NOT Xcom...... (which will quickly lead to my 2nd comment later).

What I mean is: how can Alien Invasion be at least as good as XCOM?
There are so many commercial versions of XCOM-like games like UFO:Afterlight/Aftermath/Extraterrestrials, but none has really achieved the cult status of the original XCOM.  Alien Invasion may end up as just another wannabe.

Maybe u should have read the wiki. UFOAI may be inspired from XCOM, but UFOAI is NOT going to be XCOM CLONE. Certainly this is better than XCOM in many ways:

1) It is 3D engine.
2) It has a revolutionary team of ppl who are FYI -> Devoting a HUGE tons of their time.
3) This IS FREEWARE and OPEN SOURCE and NOT commercial. Hence, its is TONS better. (If you think you can code faster and better, get the codes, understand em and take it from there.... i assure u, as a programmer, that this IS DIFFICULT.....). [for the records, they ARE using C programming to a certain extent......u can try it. Then comment appropriately....)
4) This is tons better, becos..... they ARE improving this game FAST AND FURIOUS..... every comment so far put in, bugs and all, have ppl working on em. And they are not complaining..... like whiners.....

5) And oh oh oh, why is this better than XCOM? Its an ALIVE project.... XCOM with all due respect.... is NOT going to improve..... this IS evolving even as we speak.

Again, that brings me to a point i would give u as an advise -> Respect the way any game is to be made, it may not be exactly the way u want it, since u have something as a benchmark; But definately it will turn out to be something probably more than u expect.... after all, Xcom is so long ago.

That could be the reason why there is no worthy successor to XCOM1.  Maybe game creators should wake up & see what the real problem is, instead of concentrating on 3D graphics and more of everything.  More doesn't mean better.

THAT -> could be the reason why there is no worthy successor -> Look. We are NOT succeeding XCOM. We are building something DIFFERENT from XCOM. This game was designed to be 3D graphics -> Hence, why NOT concentrate on 3D? The graphics team are working day and night on this.... if u r NOT going to complement them for a good job already well done.... then dun say anithing. Have u even seen the graphics already???

PS: This BTW is still in 2.3 Development stage. If u have been downloading my betas for beta testers.... then u SHOULD know from my download page at nakido that THIS IS FULL OF BUGS, NOT OFFICIAL RELEASES, and FOR BETA TESTERS (YES, i have to emphasize tat again).

If u dun like the bugs, go for 2.2.1.

And the game developers DO KNOW what the problems (and bugs) are.... they are working on it, and so are all of the beta testers here...... Do u even know what u r talking abt? Do u even know what bugs there are? Do u even know what and who are working on what and when? Hmmmmm....

What are you getting so angry about?  Where in my posts did I mention anything about UFO:AI being a bad game?  Where did I mention that I am a "better gamer"?  I am just bringing up for discussion how the game can be better.
You are using your own prejudices to put down others who give sugggestions.

If the admin is so aggressive and cannot accept suggestions, then I guess, yeah, I should not be here at all.

On part 1 of this post: U did mention that UFOAI is a bad game -> Your previous post indicated problems.....  and the need to abandon 3D..... which will NOT be possible OR logical. Why should the project abandon 3D? *ponders hard*

That could be the reason why there is no worthy successor to XCOM1.  Maybe game creators should wake up & see what the real problem is, instead of concentrating on 3D graphics and more of everything.  More doesn't mean better.

This statement can be an implying that no matter how UFOAI (or for the records here, ANY GAME) improves and evolves, it can NOT come close to how 'good' XCOM1 will be...... Sigh.

And btw, more DOES means better (most of the time). Let me ask u, if XCOM1 turns 3d, becomes better graphics, better music, allows longer better storyline, have more research and have options to conquer alien's homeworld, is it not going to be better?

Maybe not for u. Well, I thnk for most of the die-hard fans like myself out there of XCOM1, we would applaud both our hands AND legs..... and for the record -> I am odie, the cute yellow dog in garfield : My paws too.

On your 2nd part-> If the admin is so aggressive and cannot accept suggestions, then I guess, yeah, I should not be here at all.

I thnk first off, who says they cannot accept suggestions? They do. And btw, they may be aggressive, depending on the initial behaviour. Sigh. And yes, maybe if u have nothing constructive...... maybe u should not even be here. Please, spend your valuable time and resources elsewhere ok? I give u my blessings.

Now the pot is calling the kettle black.  I did not use a single vulgar term whereas you called me "bullshit".  You sound like a teenager by your use of language.
I am trying to be civilized and reason with you but you persist to be stuck up and undiplomatic. 
You do not deserve to be an admin at all and should take up lessons on public relations.

*Sigh*. Well, look, if u look back to your post nos 3, and BTAxis response to your statement, he called the idea bullshit. And FYI, BTAxis is NOT a teenager. lol. At least going by his user info. Hahaha..... His use of language is more like a standard adult who well, may not have the best of manners after a series of non constructive comments heard.

Dun stereotype ppl is the lesson to be learnt here.

Btw, from the last 5 posts...... u hardly seemed diplomatic here or 'civilized' apart from maybe post nos 1.

And btw, he DOES deserve to be an admin, though not the usual nice nice gal gal u see in games' forums.... he is one of the original fellows on the dev team (2nd generation) who revives the project, help set many of the directions and focuses of the project..... Let say 'quoting from BTAxis' himself, he is the spokesman for the project.

If he does not speak up and stand firm on the original directions and focus made by Mattn and team, we would have sidetracked from many ideas and input (including from myself definately, my bad). So, as much as he does not have a pleasant job to do (such as putting down certain ideas so project can stay on track) and have to be well.... 'rude' sometimes, i still think he deserves to be an admin. Lol.

And as for u, back to the last comment from u..... seriously, quoting yourself, i think 'you sound like a teenager by your use of language' too..... honestly. Hence, do take up some public relations lessons too yourself ok?

Okie, enuf time wasted here. Back to tracking the other threads.

[Ildamos]

BTAxis' replies may strike as me as rude but I do think that his replies are warranted; your comment:

That could be the reason why there is no worthy successor to XCOM1.  Maybe game creators should wake up & see what the real problem is, instead of concentrating on 3D graphics and more of everything.  More doesn't mean better.

does strike me as something that's not tactful and comes on strong.

[BTAxis]

After some deliberation, I've decided to cede the point. I maintain that Fistleaf's comment was at best uninformed and undiplomatic, but I should have ignored that (as per my initial response). My mistake was to further rant about it, and in a rude manner. For that I apologize.
Now, I will leave these forums. There have been too many incidents like this, and I've come to realize that this is no longer the community I used to enjoy being part of. I'll be around if someone needs me, but otherwise I'm taking a break until further notice.

[keybounce]

Please come back after you have a chance to cool off.

[Ildamos]

I maintain that Fistleaf's comment was at best uninformed and undiplomatic

Yes it was. Therefore, there is no reason for you to take a break from these forums. Just because there are a lot of people like this (and there ARE a lot of people like this in EVERY forum), doesn't mean you've done a horrible job nor should you quit on this laudable community effort.

[Destructavator]

I see a lot of finger-pointing going on here, and honestly I don't think continuing it would really accomplish anything.

I can see how more than one person in this discussion could have handled themselves a little bit better, but I don't think it would be a good idea to continue throwing these matters back and forth like this, what's already been done is done, I think we should try to move past it.

In the interest of moving back toward the original topic, UFO: AI, as has been said, is not a remake of XCOM and doesn't aim to replace it or copy it, that's just not a goal of the project.  It's only inspired by XCOM/UFO, but a separate game with different end-goals in mind.

That being said, I don't see too much reason to continue this thread much further.

[homunculus]

about the ai, i remember at some point while playing xcom1, i thought about alien behavior that would be based on group movement and some objectives the aliens try to accomplish.

the objectives would be moving from random point 'a' on the tactical map to random point 'b', and then from point 'b' to another random point 'c' for some reason that may be incomprehensible for the player.
i would guess it would be better than having the aliens move completely aimlessly, or like it seems in ufo-ai atm, their movement seems to be determined totally by the opponent's (player's) actions.

and the aliens would be moving in small groups according to the so-called flocking rules.
there's some texts about it in wikipedia, but the best texts i could not find atm with reasonable effort.

but basically there is attraction between the members of the group that depends on distance -- the shorter the distance the stronger the attraction.
to avoid getting too close, there's also a short range repulsion that, at short range, is stronger than the attraction.

now, based on those two rather simple rules the group of aliens would move quite intelligently around obstacles, and with some simple adjustments they would also respond naturally to attractions in the environment.
this kind of algorithms have been used to model movement of groups of animals, and groups of people in a museum, etc.
btw, similar principle is popular when doing automatic graph layout, called 'spring layout'.

as for the game, if a group of aliens is moving with some direction in mind, i think it might create more diverse situations and challenges.

by setting up the attraction rules, you can have things like tamans mostly trying to be in the center of the group and ortnoks in the perimeter, the shevaar doing skirmishes and bloodspiders scouting the area.
and, that would be emergent property of group members acting according to just a few very formal rules.

i would expect this to produce more interesting situations on maps with less open terrain than most ufo-ai maps, though.
as said earlier, i thought of it while playing xcom1, more specifically the terror missions in towns.

[...]One can't make a video game all by himself. (Though I've read only two people made "Light of Altair.")[...]

what about the first ff game, afaik it was made by a single japanese guy who got fed up with something.

Blaster bombs were a disaster!

One trick I learned was the reaction wall. Anything coming out of the UFO got slaughtered.

Then, suddenly, a bomb came out of the UFO. My wall of soldiers was almost wiped out.
[...]

blaster bombs did not go to another floor through elevator.
that's why you should set up a reaction wall not at a doorway but at an elevator.
the aliens did try to shoot blaster bombs through elevators, though, and that was a problem when trying to catch alien commander from a base by using small launcher (fired stun grenades) reaction wall at entrance elevator.
i didn't like launchers myself, i think they created too much chaos if you didn't take care of them asap, and therefore forced the player to routinely use the psi tactics that was already overpowered.

[Destructavator]

I remember the version of the original XCOM game made quite a difference with how the AI worked - I purchased the first release on floppy discs for DOS, and when a patch came out the notes in the patch said that the AI had been re-designed so that the aliens would really come after player units.

I also remember I could, did, and had fun shooting blaster bombs up elevators inside UFOs, although I don't recall if it was before or after the patch.  The bombs were also good for entering UFOs by making your own "door" to come in almost wherever you wanted, which was kinda fun.

I think many of these things vary depending on what version one played - I've actually seen the European release in action which is a bit different than the American one I played, and then there were patches that came out after the floppy discs, and even later another version came out for earlier versions of Windows (which I have not seen personally) from what I've heard.  The original DOS version that I had also went through more than one upgrade patch.

[Fistleaf]

Since BTAxis has already apologised, I will also apologise to BTAxis and all others involved for the use of provocative language.

Some points to clarify here:

I reread the post and realised what he meant - that the team should not be focusing on 3D and instead on the gameplay and 'other areas'..... my bad.

My intention in this post is not to criticise UFOAI as a bad game.  In fact, I have even posted in StrategyCore forum about how this game looks good.  What I wanted to bring up for discussion was why other XCom clones have failed, and how can UFOAI not make the same mistakes.  The part about "concentrating on 3D" was a general comment on the failure of XCom clones, not just directed at UFOAI.  Somehow the comment was misintepreted as an attack on UFOAI.  I have no reason to do that, as I am not creating a rival game to compete with UFOAI.

FYI, he IS the admin. i.e. He can simply Shut U Up and PBan u from forum.

I know that, but I have never encountered such an aggressive admin before (no offence intended).

On this point, probably becos of the fact u r new, u should know that there is such a thing as strategy. U CAN escape, just depending on your distance on the nearest base. (Btw, i do not even know the version of the UFOAI u r running..... and the OS you are running this on).

I am running the latest stable version 2.2.1 I think.  What strategy can I use if the first ship from my first base gets attacked on the way back from a successful mission on the other side of the globe?  It's back to square one instantly.  I have already lost 2 ships just doing maybe 5 missions.

Certainly this is better than XCOM in many ways:
1) It is 3D engine.
3) This IS FREEWARE and OPEN SOURCE and NOT commercial. Hence, its is TONS better.

These 2 points I do not agree with.  3D alone doesn't mean better, 2D graphics may work better sometimes.  Of course if it can be done in 3D, more power to you.
Freeware alone also doesn't mean better.  In terms of cost of game, it's better.  But a freeware game that nobody plays is not better than a commercial game.
Again, this is just for discussion.  Don't go overboard treating every single comment as an attack on UFOAI.

And btw, more DOES means better (most of the time). Let me ask u, if XCOM1 turns 3d, becomes better graphics, better music, allows longer better storyline, have more research and have options to conquer alien's homeworld, is it not going to be better?

This is a misconception.  As an analogy, a hit 2hour-length movie may end up ruined if extra scenes are added till it becomes a draggy 4hour movie.  Similarly, overdoing the features may end up ruining the perfect balance of the game.

Dun stereotype ppl is the lesson to be learnt here.

Yes, I agree.  Don't stereotype every comment as an attack on UFOAI.

And as for u, back to the last comment from u..... seriously, quoting yourself, i think 'you sound like a teenager by your use of language' too..... honestly. Hence, do take up some public relations lessons too yourself ok?

The teenagers in your country have such a high standard of English?  Which country are you from? 
My public relations lessons all went down the drain after being pissed off by BTAxis.  But I am not angry with BTAxis now.

[Ildamos]

by setting up the attraction rules, you can have things like tamans mostly trying to be in the center of the group and ortnoks in the perimeter, the shevaar doing skirmishes and bloodspiders scouting the area.
and, that would be emergent property of group members acting according to just a few very formal rules.

This is something I really want to see.

The first FF was made by one guy? Thanks for the heads-up!

[homunculus]

[...]The first FF was made by one guy? Thanks for the heads-up!

we have wikipedia now : )
but to my disappointment, i read that the first ff was not the game that i meant, and it seems it might have not been developed by one guy.
what i played was actually ff: endless nova, and there's some controversial info about the creators in reviews:

Delita Hyral X is the nickname for a man who has devoted large amounts of his life to creating a completely new Final Fantasy game with the old engine. I find it truly remarkable that a single man can create a game that lives up to the high standards set by the Final Fantasy games. Not only does Endless Nova live up to the name, it ranks up there with FF VI!

Final Fantasy: Endless Nova is a free fan-created game by Delita Hyral X and Orochi Kasunagi in the engine RPG Maker 2000 and can be downloaded here. It consists of roughly 300 maps, an arcade and a casino with working games, a new stat building system and magic system, and a trade item system allowing the player to acquire rare items.

[Ildamos]

Ah. I didn't bother with wiki about FF. Truth to tell, I'm not really into FF (though I did play---and finish---the very first one on the Game Boy monochrome lol!)

Anyway, we are off topic so we shouldn't continue this line of discussion. 

[Battlescared]

Just want to add a positive note to the thread since it seemed to self destruct.  I played XCOM, JA, most of them all.  Loved them all.  Don't like these polls and hate to see the dev's put on the defense for just trying to do something that very few are capable of and willing to do.  XCOM was great.  Does UFO:AI need to be XCOM to succeed?  Hell no.  I don't want a remake, I want a new game.  If I want to play XCOM I can load it up in a copy of DosBox and play to my hearts content.

For those that may not remember, XCOM was not the first computer game.  It was just the first that really captured a number of elements together in one package, and delivered.  It blended tactical strategy with larger strategic, and threw in the RPG elements as an added bonus.  It was those RPG elements that set it apart and made us care a bit about those squadies we threw into battle.  

But even it's own successors couldn't capture what the original did.  Comparing UFO:AI to it is pointless.  Let it stand on it's own merits, and the question should be what does it need to be a better game?  I think UFO:AI is a fantastic game, and I've been following it's development for a long time.  What UFO:AI needed to really capture our attention again was something that it can never capture again... surprise.  XCOM surprised the game world when it came out and that contributed to its lore.  UFO:AI is an open source project, and could never do that.  We've been exposed to all it's bugs and miscommings for a long time now.  I do not play the beta releases for that reason.  This way I'm surprised when the new features come out in the stable releases (and I'm very anxiously awaiting he next release)  

From playing UFO:AI, what I think it needs is a more engaging story, something to give us reason to plod through map after map.  More missions that expose mystery and longer term questions that take multiple missions to work out.  So I guess the closest thing to what I would like is option 1, better AI, on the battlefield and as played out in the larger strategic game.

So keep it up guys.  I really appreciate all the hard work you guys have put into this.  I wish more people could be exposed to this type of gaming, but the twitchy finger console crowd is dominating the market, probably forever this time.  To me though, this is gaming at it's best, and you guys are doing a great job at helping to keep the genre going.  Thank you.

[shevegen]

Let's start a petition to bring BTAxis back!

I trade in BTAxis replies any time over newcomers
opinion anytime.

Anyway, I do think that people should relax more.
It is a waste of time to bicker in a forum and lose energy
about this.

People have different opinions ALL the time, it is not important to
convince all of them about YOUR point, or be convinced by their
points. The most important thing is that the project itself is healthy,
that the devs  *can* develop in a friendly stimulating atmosphere,
that the game can provide enjoyment and fun - and that the
project can continue to prosper with motivated people on board.

Let's stop the bickering and concentrate on what is fun!

UFO-AI has come a really long way already, and I felt that most of
the time only small changes are be needed. (For example, I
once said that I would love to be able to destroy walls in game,
but the response was that this would require a massive effort
of rewriting the engine so I was fine with that not being possible
and not pushing on it - there are other ideas which can make the
game better, and then again who knows, a growing project also
attracts new coders - we saw that with wesnoth, who often change
vital parts of the game. )

Also other game projects died slowly more or less, like project
talon, but IMHO they never came as far as UFO AI came.

I liked the original Ufo AI games a lot too, but there are many
problems with it, and the most striking one today is that the
graphics can not really keep up with today. I think it is better
to invest time into a game that *is* appealing to today's player,
even if that includes changing gameplay totally.

This is no problem IMHO:
If a game is good, it is good. Many projects which tried to recreate
the original failed in the end, for example nuvie (ultima 6), syndicate
wars, and maaany others.

Anyway, UFO-AI is cool, let's not kill a cool game