JUST STATING THE OBVIOUS

[cyllan]

hello


Well you guys should be surprised, ( i am ) i have been playing this game non stop for 2 weeks, i played all earlier versions, but not like this, which got me thinking.............

without trying to mess with the "ethos" of  free software,  i was thinking long and hard......


i just paid $30 for a preorder of xenonauts.

similar game, probably not better graphics, only 120 megs of data.........


these days ANYONE IN THE WESTERN WORLD  can pay $30(xenonauts preorder fee),   half of Europe is on benefits, and if not.....

daddy can i have 25 quid for a new pair of shoes?!!!! .


i just wonder really, 30-40 dollars is a days work (after tax),  



all the work the devs of this game are doing is for free, and  a big thanks for the fun game they keep doing .


however  the capitalistic pig in me keeps wondering..... you guys have the skills.... you guys have the talent...... you guys have the maths and physics......


why not capitalize on this ? make a commercial game  and get money from it!!!!!!!

I WOULD BUY IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!


i said this on many mods forums.... most people make megabytes/gigabytes of data, and get fuck all for it.

we are in an economic crisis my ass!!!!!!!!!!,  people get drunk, smoke, is on benefits and take drugs......  sure......... families are struggling, but $30-40  is 1 days work..

 not a new tv/car......

and this isnt like buying a dvd or a music album, so the producers and "artists" can "break it down" and  enjoy the babes and the bling, this would go towards giving you a better living

standard......



I dont know the complexities of the project, it would need a new engine/graphics/animation...... not a small thing.......


but you would get your money back.......at the very least.


i am not a programer/dev.... but i really think you could make money out of this and make an astounding game that people would buy.....


i am not going to repeat this, i dont want to injure any feelings,  i just think  you should make a buck or two out of this, and that means my money and other peoples money.

people are wasting money, billions of it, on petrol/drinking/cigs/ and shoes ( i do!) ...... money is all around, you should have your share, you have  earnt it......

justice should be served...

enough  said.

Jose Garcia.


ps. im gonna go back and play a bit more...... i am actually subscribed to eve online........ and i only log in to  train my skills.... lol

[Nutter]

I actually saw this rather interesting video* on Youtube that touched on the subject, actually. Short version is, if there's thinking involved, folks don't really work well once money gets involved. Also talked about how folks like doing tinkering in their spare time without expecting pay. And yes, I did butcher it trying to explain the thing. In hindsight, it kind of reminds me of this well known indie game that's been talked about lately.
But of course, I already wouldn't support this just because I wouldn't be able to buy it anyway but that's irrelevant.
*By RSA Animate if it sounds familiar.

Oh on the topic of trying to capitalise on everything, if this wasn't my first post I'd make an off hand comment on you, a well and ceasing of biological function.
But at this point I'm not sure if that'd be too well received here.


Edit: Forgot to mention, but from what I've gathered, charging for mods can lead to at least a bit of a little something called a "shitstorm."
And a financial crisis doesn't change the human nature. Just kicks it in the groin for few seconds.

[TallTroll]

It would be legally tricky (at best) to release UFO : AI as a commercial game, because the licences many of the game elements are used under specifically forbid any commercial usage. Also, there is no real need. The dev team do a fine job driving things forward in their spare time, but if people had paid actual money for the game, they would expect much better results than any volunteer team could possibly deliver in terms of frequency of updates, bug fixes etc. This game is free, so if it takes 6 months for an update to appear, that's fine. If you'd paid £40 for it, that would be a lot less fine.

There's also nothing to stop commercial games compaines developing their own squad level, turn based tactical shooter game right now, but very, very few choose to do so. Sadly, it's just not really a very big market. Most people seem to prefer more visceral FPS games (I just started playing Crysis 2 online, and it's a very disquieting experience. Imagine playing Black Ops, but everyone can turn invisible at will. You are on the edge of a nervous breakdown, all the time, because you never know if you're staring straight through a guy pointing an HMG right at your head).

There's nothing to stop you donating to the game either, if you think it's worth paying for. The donate buttons are up on the home page, to go towards improved hosting, so the devs can actually get into the game files to access them once in a while...

[geever]

It would be legally tricky (at best) to release UFO : AI as a commercial game, because the licences many of the game elements are used under specifically forbid any commercial usage.

You're wrong on this. The game is GPL which can be sold. Maybe there are one or two textures or other files that are "noncommercial" but we're replacing them anyway.

Also, there is no real need. The dev team do a fine job driving things forward in their spare time, but if people had paid actual money for the game, they would expect much better results than any volunteer team could possibly deliver in terms of frequency of updates, bug fixes etc. This game is free, so if it takes 6 months for an update to appear, that's fine. If you'd paid £40 for it, that would be a lot less fine.

I don't know what people expect but I don't see (m)any updates for most of the commercial games.

There's nothing to stop you donating to the game either, if you think it's worth paying for. The donate buttons are up on the home page, to go towards improved hosting, so the devs can actually get into the game files to access them once in a while...

Yes, you can help with donating.

-geever

[xkuehn]

Geever is absolutely correct. Moreover, markets for the same game with a nonzero price can exist in parallel with a free download.

Let me give you some numbers and you'll understand. All costs are in South African rand. (Currently, R6-R7=$1. The exchange rate is less stable than between the really major currencies.)

NB: Note I'm saying KB, not Kb.

When I first came across UFO:AI, I didn't have an internet connection at a reasonable price. That wasn't even long ago, it was back when 2.1 was current. Big name computer games were going for two or three hundred in stores. (Depending on whether it was old or new stock.)

If I had downloaded the game at home, I would have paid a lot more than I would for any game at a store. It was something like R0.60/min with a download rate of 7.5KB/s. I.e., R>500. It would also take a LOT of time. The horrors of dial-up.   (South Africans may chip in here and tell you that you can cap your calls at R7 each after hours. This is true, but you'll get disconnected every so often and have to dial again. You'll also have a much lower download speed -- only analog lines were eligible.)

I downloaded it at the university. IIRC, it cost R0.30/MB and the tarballs were around 400MB. So that's around R120. Provided you're at a university. Provided also you can find a way to justify downloading source code as "academic purposes". (Or don't get caught, if source code has nothing to do with your studies.) Once again, the university connection can be used more cheaply -- but your connection grinds to a halt at these times. I've been in the computer rooms at 00:00 (when it's free) and you couldn't so much as open a web page with all the scripts downloading simultaneously.

I can't give you a price for internet cafés at the time. Current prices are not much different from what I gave for the university. It's something like R0.25/MB + ?/hour at a place near here. The download speed beats anything else on this list, though.

Currently, I'm on ADSL for free. I get to use it simply because it's cheaper than dial-up for my father's time-consuming work, even though he doesn't need need to pump lots data. R85/month for a 1GB cap, R140/month for a 5GB cap, R60/GB to temporarily increase the cap. Both at an effective download rate of about 40KB/s. Line rental is excluded -- but presumably you'd use it for phone calls too. There are larger caps with a lower per gigabyte cost. (Uncapped connections are exorbitant; R~600 IIRC. And I hope you like being throttled.) All contracts are 2-year contracts.

The latest I've hear on wireless prices works out quite similar to ADSL, assuming you buy a large (for us) monthly data bundle. Also on 2-year contract.

"Cable" does not exist.

So I'm lucky enough that I can download UFO:AI. Most people around here are not. Hell, most people are dirt poor.

Many people do own a computer, even if they have no internet access. True, I can give the game to my friends. How big is my social sphere?

Now, most big-name computer games sell for a little over R300. Incredible Corruption (nickname, so as not to spam) sells "classics" for anything from R50-R130. (StarCraft still gets shelf space at R130!?) Another store sells various indie titles for around R80 -- the two I've tried weren't nearly as well-made as UFO:AI.

If someone sold UFO:AI or Battle for Wesnoth by mail for, say, R40-R50, it'd be the only way many people could get these games. And totally worth the money. Offer to split the money with NineX for hosting, and I'm sure the community would support it rather than raising hell as Nutter predicted. You could have the disks professionally pressed and still turn a profit, just don't sell it to the First World!

P.S. Business is not easy. Don't say I didn't warn you.

[Hertzila]

*words*

The problem with trying this is that most of us do reside in first-world nations and that brings in shipping costs. I don't know how much it could cost to ship there but that could very well bring the costs up, assuming that the would-be seller can keep material costs low (may not be hard, IIRC a set of 10 CDs costs about 10 euros over here and letters don't cost even that).

On the other hand, should somebody over there (like, say, you) pursue this, it's more than likely that you could keep the postal costs very low, which would allow for selling them with a much lower price than from here (though I don't know how much the materials would cost there). When the last of the non-commercial licenses gets removed, you could also do this legally without worrying about angry artists.


Welcome to the forums!

[jcjordan]

Well it doesn't matter to me one way or the other but if you do decide to go the commercial route might I suggest Matrix Games? I'm not employed/vested interest in them but I've got many games from them in the past.

[Edi]

Another company to talk to if going commercial would be Shrapnel Games. Not that I expect commercialization to happen, but in the case it was considered.

[xkuehn]

I don't know how much it could cost to ship there but that could very well bring the costs up, assuming that the would-be seller can keep material costs low (may not be hard, IIRC a set of 10 CDs costs about 10 euros over here and letters don't cost even that).

You have it the wrong way around. Material costs are lower here. (Are those CDs gold plated?) The postal system in South Africa, well... let's just say that every package would have to be insured. And remember that "here" is not one place. I don't know if mailing from South Africa to, say, India would be cheaper than from the USA or Europe. I doubt it.

Regarding

Well it doesn't matter to me one way or the other but if you do decide to go the commercial route might I suggest Matrix Games?

Another company to talk to if going commercial would be Shrapnel Games.

I wouldn't go that route. Remember that the GPL forbids additional restrictions. So there's no way that one could give a GPLed program to a company and guarantee that they won't just sell it without giving anything back. Assuming it would be profitable for them to do so. Also, I googled the companies and their games are expensive. Remember the prices I talked about above? $40 ~= R270.

If one were to sell games such as UFO:AI, there'd be two ways to go about it.

1) Just burn disks at home. This is the only viable option if the demand is very low.
2) Have disks made by a company. This is cheaper if one were going to make a few hundred identical disks. The disks also look much better and don't degrade in 5-15 years like CD-Rs do.

In either case, marketing would be the big problem. A game like UFO:AI spreads largely by word of mouth. If you don't have anyone who can give you the game, you probably don't know about it. Unless you came across it on the internet and don't have a good enough connection to download it, which is why I said that the First World would not be the main target.

There is more. If you are going to sell UFO:AI, it would have to include a manual. Not a link to the wiki, but a manual that is current for the version sold. It might be printed or on the disk. It would have to be typeset and edited. You would also have to fix the most glaring mistakes and omissions in the game before publishing. For example, 2.3.1 is currently stable. But I get "<TODO>" for a lot of in-game text, and that's not funny if you paid for the game and can't look it up on the net. You're not going to sell a nightly build, are you? It's better to have features removed than to include partly-functioning features. You'd also have to include source code. (You'd be on shaky legal ground with the GPL if you specifically sold a game to people who can't download it and then told them they can get the source on the net.)

Of course, there might be vanity purchases from the First World. People might like the idea of a printed manual and a pretty CD, especially those who've been indoctrinated that sharing is stealing.

[TallTroll]

>> You're wrong on this. The game is GPL which can be sold. Maybe there are one or two textures or other >> files that are "noncommercial" but we're replacing them anyway.

OK, for some reason I'd got it in my head that you were replacing textures etc to go to a purposely non-commercial basis

>> I don't know what people expect but I don't see (m)any updates for most of the commercial games.

Heh, LOTS of commercial games get post-release support... because they are released broken, and need a Day 1 patch just to run 

Some companies *are* pretty good about supporting games, even long after release, but yeah, it's the exception, not the rule. Open source / collaborative is just a completely different model though, there's no pressure to deliver to a budget driven deadline, no investors demanding to see profits

[cyllan]

well... xenonauts is being done here in england , by digital distribution only, to be honest i was thinking of the devs doing a whole new game, from scratch,  the xenonauts team is very small,  and  they decided to make a commercial project 1.5 years  ago, i am just surprised you devs spent so much time and effort on a game that gets you 0 profit, if you guys are from south africa, (i remember the rand being 20 to 1pound)  you could make a lot of rands , but anyway no one has  really replied from the devs side, i suggest you all sit down and consider it....

however the graphics would have to be better, the quake engine is just too old.

agree or dont agree.... dont really care but i know how life is in south africa, electric fences on the houses!!!!!!!!!!!, oh man.....  is mental!!!!!,  i would think you devs like money....

oh yeah , about this game only be spread by word of mouth, that is total BS,  the numebr one magazine in US and UK is big on indy games, there was a 1 page spread on xenonauts,  thats is the reason i bought it on preorder.

[xkuehn]

if you guys are from south africa, (i remember the rand being 20 to 1pound)  you could make a lot of rands

That exchange rate was during financial turmoil, it's now somewhere around R10-R12 for a pound. Also, R1 won't buy in ZA what £1 will buy in the UK.

agree or dont agree.... dont really care but i know how life is in south africa, electric fences on the houses!!!!!!!!!!!, oh man.....  is mental!!!!!

I'm from South Africa. I might decide to dabble in the code a little, but I'm certainly not "you devs".

I don't have an electric fence.

Having said that, violent crime is a big problem. Haven't been robbed myself (just two attempted break-ins), but you hear about people being robbed/murdered/tortured (rape is also used to torture). To see if they or others present can come up with more money in the latter case, or sometimes out of sheer sadism.

It is the result of general lawlessness and "rights". If a man breaks into your house and shoots at you, YOU can get locked up for retaliating. Often, anyway. And they'll let literally anyone out on bail and parole.

Vigilante executions are -- sadly but predictably -- on the rise. Hopefully The Party will grow a spine (not likely) or someone else will take over (less likely).

oh yeah , about this game only be spread by word of mouth, that is total BS,  the numebr one magazine in US and UK is big on indy games, there was a 1 page spread on xenonauts,  thats is the reason i bought it on preorder.

I stand corrected. It is certainly not the case here. (From what I've seen of gaming magazines.)

Now I don't want to offend; this is genuinely friendly advice. Hold back on the exclamation marks and use proper capitalisation. People will assume you're some immature kid if you make no effort. Nothing wrong with being a kid, but you do want to be taken seriously either way.

[cyllan]

Well you might not want to offend, however i have worked with 100 south Africans  (whites) in the UK, before they closed the visas to them and english written grammar is definitely not  a "forte", understandable perhaps being second language etc, and probably much better spoken English that many other countries, but taking me to case because of capitalization or whatever is called seem absurd, i am not a kid, i am not a writer and there is nothing wrong  with my writing, i never said i was Shakespeare, and my point is not being taking seriously because of several possible reasons.


1- the devs dont think seriously they can "make" a professional AAA,or  A+ product, maybe lack of specialized skills, i dont know.....

2- they are too busy paying the mortgage  and dont have the funds to do it.

3- they dont want to take the big financial risk in a recession

4-they dont have the time, since they all have full time jobs

5- they havent really seriously considered it.



all valid reasons, none of them  got nothing to do with my grammar, just life


has actually any dev raised the question to the others seriously? what was the reaction? any plans, business proposals, funding requirements estimated, etc?

[geever]

6 - we seriously considered and rejected it.

-geever

[xkuehn]

Well you might not want to offend, however i have worked with 100 south Africans  (whites) in the UK, before they closed the visas to them and english written grammar is definitely not  a "forte", understandable perhaps being second language etc, and probably much better spoken English that many other countries, but taking me to case because of capitalization or whatever is called seem absurd, i am not a kid, i am not a writer and there is nothing wrong  with my writing, i never said i was Shakespeare, and my point is not being taking seriously because of several possible reasons.

Then the South Africans you have worked with were too lazy to learn. Written English is held to an extremely high standard in South Africa. Perhaps more so than in England. And I never wanted to attack you. I also never said you are a kid, I said it makes you sound like one. It's genuinely friendly advice -- sort of like "your shoelaces are untied". Please don't take offense; ignore it if you want.

6 - we seriously considered and rejected it.

So I think your question has been answered. The devs don't want to do it, you don't want to do it, I don't want to do it, and no-one has chipped in to say they want to do it.

I'll do one thing, though. If someone in Southern Africa really can't get the game, you can PM me and we'll see if I can get it to you.