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Author Topic: Laser Rifle - useless ?  (Read 22007 times)

Offline Darknight

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Re: Laser Rifle - useless ?
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2007, 05:26:11 pm »
With regards to the laser weapons, the pistol is pointless except as a suicide weapon. The laser rifle would make a fantastic sniper weapon and the heavy would be ideally suited to an air to air weapon or as a short range heavy weapon. The heavies range is to long, if it requires someone with great strength to wield it, I doubt they would be able to hold it for very long.

I think the lasers have great potential, yet they are out gunned, due to the the aliens better weapons. No sooner have you researched lasers and beginning production and they have moved from plasma to particle.
<Clipped>

Basically I think your always out gunned and out armoured.


Having played the original UFO games, I agree with the last statement. A big part of the game, and its challenge, was in coping with the fact that the aliens almost always had you outgunned.

But if you think about it, it makes perfect sense. From the alien's point of view, humans are a primitive people with only primitive technology, and as such make for easy prey. That would be why they chose to invade Earth in the first place.

That puts the Earth, and the player, in the position of trying to defend the planet against their superior technology. This is true right up until the end-game, when we finally achieve tech parity with the aliens.

In the case of the laser weapons, this is certainly a case of mismatched firepower. That was true in the original game too. The pistol was fast, but did little more that let the aliens know where you were. The rifle was little better. The only way I found to use the rifle effectively, was by positioning laser snipers to catch an alien in a crossfire. One rifle was nearly useless, but two or three working together could bring down most aliens quickly.

That means its all about the tactics you use, not the firepower, most of the time. The aliens rarely bothered with tactics. (The game couldnt support good AI at the time anyway.) But then why should they? From their point of view, we are little better than cavemen, so they should be able to beat us without bothering much with tactics.

Still, the lasers were never more than a temporary weapon, used until plasma weapons were gotten into service. A bridge if you will, between useless bullet-spitters and weapons with real power.

inquisiteur2

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Re: Laser Rifle - useless ?
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2007, 12:08:25 am »
agreed but would be a shame to end with a set of laser weaponry that no one will develop / use because its is less cost effective and power effective in any way that primitive powder based guns.

It would be also good to avoid what has been introduced for example in UFO ET where there is a lot of weapons technology technology, but from a generation to the another only power increases thus obseleting completely each previous weapon set. Would be good to have a particularity for each weapons technology, for example laser would be caracterized by precision and small TU requirements, plasma by power, starting weapons by versatility, etc...I guess this is what is currently achieved.

Kohli

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Re: Laser Rifle - useless ?
« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2007, 02:39:46 pm »
agreed but would be a shame to end with a set of laser weaponry that no one will develop / use because its is less cost effective and power effective in any way that primitive powder based guns.

I did do this: http://ufoai.ninex.info/forum/index.php?topic=1725.0 a while back. Dunno if it's going to get implemented or not.
But test it out, if you don't like the current lasers.

Offline BTAxis

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Re: Laser Rifle - useless ?
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2007, 04:12:59 pm »
The thing is that armor is probably going to be implemented soon. Once that happens, I intend to completely rework all the weapon values from scratch.

Takai

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Re: Laser Rifle - useless ?
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2007, 11:26:22 pm »
I love the design and the concept but not the weapon stats.

On difficult settings I managed to develop laser rifles with clips

Making clip-fed laser already make them pretty useless. Laser in the original X-COM were useful because they were pretty quick to research and produce, and did not ammunition to be produced. What's wrong with clip-less lasers?

Surrealistik

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Re: Laser Rifle - useless ?
« Reply #20 on: December 22, 2007, 02:48:15 am »
The fact that they're not consistant with Winter's expectations of realism ostensibly.

In any case I'd have to agree that laser weapons as is are largely useless. Great sniping, long/extreme range weapons, but there are far too few maps where this advantage can truly shine. At every other distance they just get outslugged due to their TU/damage inefficiency. The accuracy doesn't even begin to make up for it.

Offline BTAxis

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Re: Laser Rifle - useless ?
« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2007, 11:59:04 am »
That's true. At short ranges, pretty much anything will hit most of the time, so accuracy stops being an issue then. All you really need is high damage, preferrably with as low a TU cost as possible (it's a bit too easy to just talk about Damage/Tu cost, as armour also comes into it).

I don't expect this to change anytime soon. What we need is maps that encourage people to use long-rage weaponry. As it is, close-range and indirect fire weapons have much more use.

Offline Destructavator

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Re: Laser Rifle - useless ?
« Reply #22 on: December 22, 2007, 01:39:29 pm »
There's a point I agree with - I personally would be happier to see some maps that are not in populated areas but out in the wilderness.  Many such places exist on Earth; does every mission site have to be in a place where there are civilians and man-made structures?

Offline BTAxis

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Re: Laser Rifle - useless ?
« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2007, 01:55:25 pm »
I have ideas for a desert tileset that would be just such an environment. But I'm kind of hoping we get support for patches (of the map editing variety), because I think I could make nice sand dunes with them.

Takai

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Re: Laser Rifle - useless ?
« Reply #24 on: December 23, 2007, 11:12:13 am »
The fact that they're not consistant with Winter's expectations of realism ostensibly.

Realism in a game about fighting UFO aliens with lasers in 20XX?

Offline BTAxis

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Re: Laser Rifle - useless ?
« Reply #25 on: December 23, 2007, 12:33:25 pm »
Yes.

Takai

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Re: Laser Rifle - useless ?
« Reply #26 on: December 23, 2007, 12:55:46 pm »
Yes.

OK. Realistic = like the real thing.

Here are the real things:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_weapon#Military

Not very exciting, unless your handheld lasers are only blinding enemies too ;) I don't think there are any clips at all.

Also realism: there no alien invaders and no-one knows how 20XX will look like.

Offline BTAxis

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Re: Laser Rifle - useless ?
« Reply #27 on: December 23, 2007, 01:10:55 pm »
Nevertheless.

Takai

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Re: Laser Rifle - useless ?
« Reply #28 on: December 23, 2007, 01:23:04 pm »
How about "fun factor"?

Unless you are really keen to perfectly simulate non-existing weapons you just completely imagined.

In X-FORCE lasers have limited number of shots per mission, but are recharged automatically after. Another reason to keep a sidearm weapon!
« Last Edit: December 23, 2007, 02:13:41 pm by Takai »

Offline BTAxis

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Re: Laser Rifle - useless ?
« Reply #29 on: December 23, 2007, 01:43:27 pm »
Of course, I agree that the game should be as fun as possible. And if it is necessary to sacrifice some realism to accomplish this, I will do so. However, this is almost never necessary. We can have both.

I don't believe making the laser clipless will really improve the game, and so I will not do this for the official scripts. If you don't like it, that's unfortunate. But you can change this for yourself, as long as you don't want to play multiplayer. You can edit the laser weapon script file (/base/weapons_laser.ufo) and change all the fire modes to use 0 ammo per shot. The laser will still use a clip, but it will never run out.