2.5 sucks completely

[Merlin]

More I play the more I'm beginning to change my mind about 2.5

1) Weapon nerfs/changes - Shotgun, Grenade Launcher, and Bazooka all seem to have been weakened.

2) Research is slower - The rate you go up the tech tree seems to be much slower. I've had about 2 weeks go by with my guys sitting at their stations playing bejeweled since they have nothing to do.

3) Aliens are tougher - this one is a debatable complaint. I'm seeing the aliens do insane shots which happens far more often that I think it's the normal thing for them, even if this is an 'XCOM' like game. Alien Blasters and Hoverbots are probably the worse with insane range and the Bots having a huge pool of TU.

4) Maps favoring the Aliens - Now I know I only saw a small pool of the maps in 2.4, but they seemed rather even with a few being a pain. The Mansion and the Supermarket are two. But the maps here seem to favor the aliens a lot, starting you off with poor cover or putting the aliens in places that you have no way of getting to for the first couple turns while they shoot you. That and shot down aliens UFOs having about the same number as UFOs that land seems unfair.

I'm save scumming far more in this game than I did in the ACTUAL XCOMs. Mainly due to the fact that I have a limit to the soldiers I can throw at them.

[H-Hour]

1. Try other weapons then.

2. You have nothing to research? What have you got researched already? Easier campaign difficulties progress more slowly, so if you're playing on Easy or Very Easy you're more likely to encounter dead time.

I'm seeing the aliens do insane shots which happens far more often that I think it's the normal thing for them

This is UFO:AI's equivalent of "The RNG hates me".

4. There are lots more maps you'll encounter in 2.5-dev. Many of them aren't very good, but it was decided that variety is more important, since players may face around 100 missions in a campaign.

Mainly due to the fact that I have a limit to the soldiers I can throw at them.

Are you sure? You get tons of soldiers in 2.5. You should be able to sustain pretty heavy losses and still recruit. I lost about one soldier per mission throughout my game and had plenty of extra recruits available at all times.

[kurja]

1) Weapon nerfs/changes - Shotgun, Grenade Launcher, and Bazooka all seem to have been weakened.

There are improvements to be found in tech tree for some of the conventional weapons

4) Maps favoring the Aliens - Now I know I only saw a small pool of the maps in 2.4, but they seemed rather even with a few being a pain. The Mansion and the Supermarket are two. But the maps here seem to favor the aliens a lot, starting you off with poor cover or putting the aliens in places that you have no way of getting to for the first couple turns while they shoot you. That and shot down aliens UFOs having about the same number as UFOs that land seems unfair.

Untill recently aliens were basically idiots waiting to be slaughtered, in 2.4 it was a rare event to lose a soldier and some of the maps were built with this in mind... Get into mapping if you want this fixed

[Merlin]

1. Try other weapons then.

2. You have nothing to research? What have you got researched already? Easier campaign difficulties progress more slowly, so if you're playing on Easy or Very Easy you're more likely to encounter dead time.

This is UFO:AI's equivalent of "The RNG hates me".

4. There are lots more maps you'll encounter in 2.5-dev. Many of them aren't very good, but it was decided that variety is more important, since players may face around 100 missions in a campaign.

Are you sure? You get tons of soldiers in 2.5. You should be able to sustain pretty heavy losses and still recruit. I lost about one soldier per mission throughout my game and had plenty of extra recruits available at all times.

1) What can my soldiers use unless they are Riflemen or snipers? Close or Heavy, why are you here? Get out.

2) Before I was complaining how fast it was to get plamsa weapons and alien tech. But for a good month my guys were basically doing nothing.  Plasma weapons hadn't shown up, I had researched the two aliens that were attacking, and only UFO scouts and fighters were running around. So yeah I had nothing to do on Normal for about half way into April to near the end of May.

3) Yeah I know it's RNG hates me. But something is just off when an Alien can regularly hit my guys with a Plasma Blaster, an apparently Close range weapon.

4) This is a current complaint. I'm sure as time goes on the maps will become better. But it's either wait for that, take up modding, or work through the problem. Also base missions hurt since the cameras don't seem to be functional yet.

5) I'm losing about 1-3 soldiers per mission now. Maybe when I get better armor that number will decrease. But Blasters and Hoverbots are chewing through my men. And I only get more troops at the end of a month and if the country likes me. It's actually possible to run out of men in this game.

There are improvements to be found in tech tree for some of the conventional weapons

Untill recently aliens were basically idiots waiting to be slaughtered, in 2.4 it was a rare event to lose a soldier and some of the maps were built with this in mind... Get into mapping if you want this fixed

I'm doubting the weapon upgrades. Sure there's probably plasma grenades for the launcher but nothing for the others. I'm this close to firing all soldiers that don't have good assault or sniper stats.

Again the maps can be fixed with time. People have probably bought up the fact about the maps before so I'm late to the party. I'm just stating how I feel.

[kurja]

I'm doubting the weapon upgrades. Sure there's probably plasma grenades for the launcher but nothing for the others. I'm this close to firing all soldiers that don't have good assault or sniper stats.

You have alien tech and teams of top scientists AND it's the future, why so doubtful? That being said, I agree that assault and sniper skills are rather important.

Again the maps can be fixed with time. People have probably bought up the fact about the maps before so I'm late to the party. I'm just stating how I feel.

ofc. I simply insinuated that you could start working on it, if that wasn't obvious :p

[H-Hour]

1) What can my soldiers use unless they are Riflemen or snipers? Close or Heavy, why are you here? Get out.

Heavy is deprecated and will be removed before 2.5 is finished. Close: SMGs/shotguns before you face armour, then just the riot shotgun with saboted slugs until you can research plasma blaster, which is really deadly. Explosives: grenade launchers and maybe Rocket Launcher depending on your style and the map. You should think of them as roles, not merely categories of weapons. Each has its particular strengths and your team should be assembled with that in mind. My personal approach is to use assault as my generalists, then bring along the other skill sets to cater to specific situations. The specialists can throw grenades (smoke, frag, flashbangs) to support other troops when they're not in an ideal position to use their primary.

2) Before I was complaining how fast it was to get plamsa weapons and alien tech. But for a good month my guys were basically doing nothing.  Plasma weapons hadn't shown up, I had researched the two aliens that were attacking, and only UFO scouts and fighters were running around. So yeah I had nothing to do on Normal for about half way into April to near the end of May.

Oh I thought you were talking about a gap further in. Yes, there's a bit of a lull early on, especially for experienced players who push hard on research right away. There's actually a "beginner's month" built into campaigns at normal difficulty and lower, so try hard difficulty to get right into the action quicker.

3) Yeah I know it's RNG hates me. But something is just off when an Alien can regularly hit my guys with a Plasma Blaster, an apparently Close range weapon.

IIRC, aliens have a tendency to use the snap shot and burst modes of the plasma blaster, which are more accurate than the primary ball mode. But I'd still contend it's a case of distorted perception. Our human brains tend to exaggerate the unexpected in our heads. If a shot has a 10% chance to hit, I won't take it because it seems almost worthless. But if I face 5 rounds from a 10% plasma blaster shot each alien turn, I'm likely to get hit a few times each mission. Each time it feels like a long shot, but that's just because my brain discards all the times it didn't hit.

I'm doubting the weapon upgrades. Sure there's probably plasma grenades for the launcher but nothing for the others. I'm this close to firing all soldiers that don't have good assault or sniper stats.

That'd be crazy. Explosives guys with grenade launchers almost always rack up the most kills. And I'd hate to take on some maps, like Shelter or even Oriental, without a close specialist or two.

[Merlin]

I love the fact that I'm getting actual replies about my concerns. This is awesome.

Heavy is deprecated and will be removed before 2.5 is finished. Close: SMGs/shotguns before you face armour, then just the riot shotgun with saboted slugs until you can research plasma blaster, which is really deadly. Explosives: grenade launchers and maybe Rocket Launcher depending on your style and the map. You should think of them as roles, not merely categories of weapons. Each has its particular strengths and your team should be assembled with that in mind. My personal approach is to use assault as my generalists, then bring along the other skill sets to cater to specific situations. The specialists can throw grenades (smoke, frag, flashbangs) to support other troops when they're not in an ideal position to use their primary.

So the Heavy machine gun which didn't see any nerfs will be removed. Great. Anyway!

Close - SMGs/Shotguns? I don't use the SMGs, like ever. I rarely use side arms unless I have to. And Shotguns took a heavy nerf with only snapshot as their firing mode and what seems to be lower range.

Explosives - again, great weapons hit with nerfs. The grenades seem weaker and with burst fire out it's hard to kill aliens with just 1 shot. Rockets seem to have taken a nerf to the aim and more TUs to shoot. Why take them when a rifleman can lob 2 grenades and still move?

Oh I thought you were talking about a gap further in. Yes, there's a bit of a lull early on, especially for experienced players who push hard on research right away. There's actually a "beginner's month" built into campaigns at normal difficulty and lower, so try hard difficulty to get right into the action quicker.

That might explain some things. Main base had 3 labs(now 4) so I blew through research.

IIRC, aliens have a tendency to use the snap shot and burst modes of the plasma blaster, which are more accurate than the primary ball mode. But I'd still contend it's a case of distorted perception. Our human brains tend to exaggerate the unexpected in our heads. If a shot has a 10% chance to hit, I won't take it because it seems almost worthless. But if I face 5 rounds from a 10% plasma blaster shot each alien turn, I'm likely to get hit a few times each mission. Each time it feels like a long shot, but that's just because my brain discards all the times it didn't hit.

I have a tendecy that the aliens seem to have sniper like aim with a close range weapon. Why are they even allowed to use that from distance? Haven't used it much(No Close based soldiers remember?), but I believe the shotgun won't even let you shoot past range X. Why does the Blaster get a pass? More to the point, I can't say anything about their percentages because I never SEE theirs. I see mine.

That'd be crazy. Explosives guys with grenade launchers almost always rack up the most kills. And I'd hate to take on some maps, like Shelter or even Oriental, without a close specialist or two.

But there's no weapons that suit them well. I only have a close specialist or two for stunning. Otherwise on the bench. I also doubt that there's weapon upgrades beyond plasma nades for the starting human weapons. One reason I wanted to try to mod this was just for that reason.

[kurja]

So the Heavy machine gun which didn't see any nerfs will be removed. Great. Anyway!

Heavy skill is going away, nothing uses that skill anymore, afaik the machinegun isn't going anywhere

Close - SMGs/Shotguns? I don't use the SMGs, like ever. I rarely use side arms unless I have to. And Shotguns took a heavy nerf with only snapshot as their firing mode and what seems to be lower range.

smg's are extremely effective in early game, that is, against targets that don't have armour. Don't you use flamethrowers? Those are deadly against, well, anything.

Explosives - again, great weapons hit with nerfs. The grenades seem weaker and with burst fire out it's hard to kill aliens with just 1 shot. Rockets seem to have taken a nerf to the aim and more TUs to shoot. Why take them when a rifleman can lob 2 grenades and still move?

Rocket launcher certainly is cumbersome to use. As Phalanx commanders we can only hope that our scientists could improve their performance against heavy late game enemies.

However, remember that the Ex skill is also used for thrown explosives!

But there's no weapons that suit them well. I only have a close specialist or two for stunning. Otherwise on the bench. I also doubt that there's weapon upgrades beyond plasma nades for the starting human weapons. One reason I wanted to try to mod this was just for that reason.

Cdr. Navarre says he understands your frustration in this grave situation, but also insists that research for advanced terrestrial technologies should not be abandoned; given adequate resources, surely his team can come up with satisfying results.

[ShipIt]

That being said, I agree that assault and sniper skills are rather important.

Back in 2.4, in the beginning I researched the Bolter (Electromagnetic Rifle). After I had them, there was no more need to use any other weapon. My teams were usually six Bolter-guys and two using a GL. With this team I played from the beginning to the very end without loosing a single soldier.
Playing 2.5 you need a different mindset. You need to use a wider range of weapons in battlescape missions. And you will loose soldiers on your way to victory.

Cdr. Navarre says he understands your frustration in this grave situation, but also insists that research for advanced terrestrial technologies should not be abandoned; given adequate resources, surely his team can come up with satisfying results.

And when he finally comes up with a result, using this on the battlefield feels like cheating. 

[Visitor]

It seems that in the recent months, great many of people complained about RNG and aliens being marathon running snipers. I suspect that there was a change that makes the whole thing harder. I am not sure if there's connection but the funny thing is that if one plays on any but the easiest difficulty levels, phalanx troopers seem to have skills below average of what you can expect of professional soldier. Occasional 'average' here and there among the stats, and 'competent' in mind is often the best you can expect - but most of other stats indicate that the recruit is actually subpar to regular human being.

(Though I realize it's like that since ancient times - still, given the occasion and speaking about Phalanx troops being weak, maybe stat labels could be adjusted, if not stats themselves).

[kurja]

Back in 2.4, in the beginning I researched the Bolter (Electromagnetic Rifle). After I had them, there was no more need to use any other weapon. My teams were usually six Bolter-guys and two using a GL. With this team I played from the beginning to the very end without loosing a single soldier.
Playing 2.5 you need a different mindset. You need to use a wider range of weapons in battlescape missions. And you will loose soldiers on your way to victory.

And when he finally comes up with a result, using this on the battlefield feels like cheating. 

Ah but let's not get ahead of ourselves, I'm as sure as you are that the results will be well worth the wait for but let's not pressure our research teams with such expectations =)

[H-Hour]

So the Heavy machine gun which didn't see any nerfs will be removed. Great. Anyway!

No weapons are going away, just the references to the skill in the UI. All heavy weapons have been re-classed as Close, Assault or Explosives.

Close - SMGs/Shotguns? I don't use the SMGs, like ever. I rarely use side arms unless I have to. And Shotguns took a heavy nerf with only snapshot as their firing mode and what seems to be lower range.

Explosives - again, great weapons hit with nerfs. The grenades seem weaker and with burst fire out it's hard to kill aliens with just 1 shot. Rockets seem to have taken a nerf to the aim and more TUs to shoot. Why take them when a rifleman can lob 2 grenades and still move?

This is why you shouldn't compare weapons as like-for-like (ie - "assault weapons are better than close weapons"), but should think of them as serving different purposes. Shotguns (and plasma blaster) are extremely powerful 1-shot, short-range weapons to be used in tight quarters and especially for reaction fire when you expect aliens to walk around a close corner. These guys can keep all your other guys safe in close quarters situations when you need a single, low-TU shot to kill the alien before it can get a shot off. Grenade launchers no longer have burst, but they do have much longer range than they used to, and way more range than a thrown grenade. That makes them all the more useful for indirect fire, bouncing around corners, shooting through windows and bursting a round off a wall next to an alien otherwise unreachable. This is a role no other weapon can perform well beyond a few grids. RPG accuracy was reduced (it used to be the most accurate weapon in the game, more than sniper rifles), but recently their power and splash radius has been increased quite a bit to compensate.

[UFOhunter]

Played a bit around with the recent build. It certainly adresses some of the points I made earlier. One prob for me though is that I get now very often black squares on battlescape maps, and quite a lot of them. Checked the bugtracker, seems to be known as #4859 if I read this right. Still I can play on without probs, it doesn't crash, just looks weird. Different settings didn't help.

Additions and improvements I've seen so far are very nice. The previous version I had hadn't even the weight thing implemented

[Conan]

Please make the "very easy" more easier, as I am in late game with power armour, stingray, hand particle weapons and my men still die like flies. I only choose my men based on strength as noobs get immediately overloaded with armour + 1 decent gun; also run out of funds and nations hapiness really quickly

Was there an earlier stable version of UFO AI where I could use 12 men mission? and where can I download earlier than 2.4?

[Merlin]

Again I like the fact that I'm getting replies to concerns I have.

smg's are extremely effective in early game, that is, against targets that don't have armour. Don't you use flamethrowers? Those are deadly against, well, anything.
Rocket launcher certainly is cumbersome to use. As Phalanx commanders we can only hope that our scientists could improve their performance against heavy late game enemies.

Know what else is effective early? Assault rifles just with better range. And no I don't use flamers. It's probably going to be changed to "Close" but currently it's heavy in my version, I think. Maybe. Anyway, range is the game since aliens rarely get close and when they do they tend to kill the person they got near. And unless the lab boys figure out how to make anti-matter rockets for ground troops I'm probably not going to use it.

This is why you shouldn't compare weapons as like-for-like (ie - "assault weapons are better than close weapons"), but should think of them as serving different purposes. Shotguns (and plasma blaster) are extremely powerful 1-shot, short-range weapons to be used in tight quarters and especially for reaction fire when you expect aliens to walk around a close corner. These guys can keep all your other guys safe in close quarters situations when you need a single, low-TU shot to kill the alien before it can get a shot off. Grenade launchers no longer have burst, but they do have much longer range than they used to, and way more range than a thrown grenade. That makes them all the more useful for indirect fire, bouncing around corners, shooting through windows and bursting a round off a wall next to an alien otherwise unreachable. This is a role no other weapon can perform well beyond a few grids. RPG accuracy was reduced (it used to be the most accurate weapon in the game, more than sniper rifles), but recently their power and splash radius has been increased quite a bit to compensate.

Blaster is short range. Explain why the aliens have great aim with them across the map. Moving on from that, Shotguns need 2-3 shots at close range to down an alien. Grenade launchers were great at indirect fire in 2.4 and still are in 2.5 if they could kill anything. Also, lower RPG accuracy but larger splash radius? That could blow up in a commander's face(HA).

My biggest problem is that I don't see any reason to use weapons besides Assault and Sniper. 2.4 I ran about 3 Assaults, 2 Snipers, and the others tended to shift around depending on the map. I liked using a Rocket to take out the biggest problem I saw on the field. Now it's all Assault and Snipers. Maybe it's just my line of thinking or playing, but Close is too risky and Explosive too much work. Work meaning not being able to kill, hit, or carry anything.

Also about the weapons, which skill do they use? When looking at the Shotgun it says Close, but when looking in the UFOpedia, the 'requirements' say heavy. And a few weapons seem to keep this odd dual skill thing.