UFO:Alien Invasion

General => Discussion => Topic started by: blade01 on February 04, 2013, 03:21:26 pm

Title: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: blade01 on February 04, 2013, 03:21:26 pm
Hi there!Ive played your game since i dont know the version number but a long time.2.4 was realy great with some flaws in weapon balancing i think.Now the game sucks completely!Why?Let me explain:

1.Reaction fire isnt working!!!!Like ive said ive played the game for some time and i know how to activate reaction fire.My soldiers almost NEVER shoot an alien.One time i was REALY pissed off because 4(!!) soldiers in reaction fire sitting in a floor have no intention to fire.ONE(!!) alien walks a couple of meters and kills ALL of them!!!!This is just ridiculus!!!The aliens ALWAYS use reaction fire and it works.That sucks.....

2.And that brings me to point 2.Is the flashbang even working??I throw a couple of them right on an aliens head.To test it i throw 3 of them and than try to shoot the bastard.HE SHOT BACK!!!!What a piece of garbage is this flashbang???I thought it is used to prevent reaction fire(read it here)....

3.The new encumbrance system is pretty bad!I start off with new soldiers that cant lift the EM rifle.How stupid it that(and the ammo for that rifle is another story)??Is there some kind of steroidabuse going on in the base that makes the older soldiers strong like gozilla???

4.I think the aliens are a little bit imba.They got plenty of APs and the the plasma rifle need too less AP to be fired.They walk a mile fire.My soldiers walk 5 meters and often cant fire or they can but wont hit anything because the target is too far away.

I think 2.5 got some cool new features but it need MUCH tweaking in terms of balance.I ve deinstalled the game because its not funny when ONE alien can kill 2-3 of my soldiers because they dont fire back.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Sarin on February 04, 2013, 03:42:53 pm
1. Reaction fire IS working. You either did not activate it or alien didn't spend enough TUs within field of fire of that soldier to trigger it. It's a common tactic for them to walk behind your soldier before firing so he doesn't see them firing, thus not triggering RF. Positioning, proper choice of weapons and mode for RF will help.

2. Flashbangs. I've noticed that when they explode exactly on same cell as alien is, they fail sometimes. If they explode next to alien they usually work. Also, use the same trick as aliens to avoid their RF if you can. The game isn't supposed to be easy, use some tactics and you'll do okay.

3. You need to do some compromises, especially early on when your soldiers have just few missions. But even starting soldiers can carry armor, weapon, sidearm, one reload for both, IR goggles and couple grenades, barring some heaviest weaponry. Medikits are usually reserved for troops with lighter weapons like assault rifle, but if you select your troops properly, troops with lighter weapons will be able to carry full backpack within dozen of missions. Of course, then new, heavier armors become available and you'll need more trained soldiers to carry the same gear with heavier armor. Learn to do compromises, think about what you really need (my soldiers don't need more than one reload for mission barring extreme circumstances).

4. They're fast, but dumb. You also have the benefit of medikits and after mission, hospital that now heals quickly. Little tactics are enough to get casualty rate to less than 1 per mission. This isn't supposed to be walk in the park.

And finally, learn to use less exclamation marks, question marks and caps. People will take you more seriously.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Noordung on February 04, 2013, 04:21:26 pm
Less than 1 is 0 ;)
Once i had problems with shavar surviving one shot from assult rifle and 5 shots from machine gun from next grid. Than shavar just shot both of my soliders...
Yes 2.5 is harder that 2.4... Much harder. But only real problem is that in battlescape there is no difference between very hard and very easy dificoulty. Well little difference that aliens get better weapons later... But still not enoight difference.
If your soliders die too much in battles than do auto battles. Mostly you get better resoults than on battlescape. If not jst reload till you get 0 casualites.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: krilain on February 04, 2013, 07:24:05 pm
Unless I missed some news, what you call 2.5 is just the dev version. It is not a release. The 2.4 is good (overall) and is the last release .

And yes, I agree that 2.5 will need a lot of tweaking. My first concern would be to find a release good to play but above all still light enough for the smallest computers.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: geever on February 04, 2013, 10:50:07 pm
You know it is a funny thing about reaction fire... :)

People say it is not working in the current version, but worked in the previous. They say it all the time and ever since I'm with the project.

They said it at 2.2 -> 2.3 change, at 2.3 -> 2.4 change, and even now before 2.4 -> 2.5 change.

But if they are right and say the truth, then it must have worked in 2.4 so the ones complained about 2.3 -> 2.4 were wrong, and if 2.4 complainers were at least half-right then it worked in 2.3, so ones complained on 2.2 -> 2.3 change were wrong....

So let's think about it a bit: Is it more probable that people simply needs time to understand the system and adapt their strategies to it, or that the system is working and not working at the same time?

-geever
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: jcjordan on February 05, 2013, 12:27:25 am
As to #1, I do think there's something wrong with all the factors that involve a solider taking a shot that something might need to be changed somewhere. From what I can gather some of the things that can determine if a soldier takes a shot are having RF set, enough pts left to do it & intelligence skill but there may be other skills/factors. There's a wargame I play & in it, there are so many die rolls to do something that inevitably the result is failing to do anything which wouldn't be the case in real life but the AI doesn't go by these rolls whereas the human player does. I have had several missions where I've had 2-4 soldiers on RF all looking at the alien & the alien walks/runs 8-10 spaces to behind one of my soliders & then shoots him in the back but none of my soldiers shoot but should've???

Are we seeing the same thing as in the other game where there are too many die rolls to do something that the result is nothing is done?
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: H-Hour on February 05, 2013, 10:48:53 am
Are we seeing the same thing as in the other game where there are too many die rolls to do something that the result is nothing is done?
No. RF is extraordinarily simple in terms of calculations and there are no die rolls involved. Please, everyone, search the forums before spreading false speculation. The RF mechanism has been explained many times and these ill-informed comments only spread misinformation.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Sarin on February 05, 2013, 11:33:19 am
Speaking about that, how is RF actually working in these two cases:

Plasma blaster. I noticed that aliens sometimes use ball mode, sometimes single shot for RF, based on distance. Do they choose their RF mode during their turn, or is it actually selected in the moment RF triggers?

Hovernets/combat hovernets (and maybe bloodspiders, but I never had bloodspider actually get into such situation): I noticed that their firing doesn't trigger RF unlike all other aliens, how is that, do they have some special TU calculation for their fire modes?
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: H-Hour on February 05, 2013, 11:52:05 am
Hovernets/combat hovernets (and maybe bloodspiders, but I never had bloodspider actually get into such situation): I noticed that their firing doesn't trigger RF unlike all other aliens, how is that, do they have some special TU calculation for their fire modes?
I have RF'd against hovernets and bloodspiders before, exactly as I'd expect. Nothing in this game treats the type of alien differently (ie - the AI isn't aware of what type of alien it is, as far as I know). Two possibilities for your perception that hovernets don't cause RF. First, when a soldier loses sight of an alien for a moment, the RF counter must start over. Hovernets are very mobile. I frequently catch sight of hovernets, then lose sight, then catch sight again. Second, I find hovernets are more likely to stay at and fire from long range. Soldiers will not RF unless there is a reasonable chance of hitting the target, so they rarely respond to fire/movement over long distances.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Triaxx2 on February 08, 2013, 04:30:18 am
Okay, so correct me if I've messed this up, but as far as I can tell, RF works as follows:

Soldier sights enemy. Enemy moves, using up (x) TU. If (x) is equal to or greater to the number of TU reserved for the reaction shot, then a reaction shot is fired. The chance to hit must also be reasonable.

So part of the mis-conception is the early game when plasma pistols take only 4 TU to fire, compared to 8 for the Assault Rifle. So the aliens get two free shots to your one but only if you're facing the right way.  It really makes the early game frustrating because one mistake in placement costs the whole team.

Does facing of the aliens matter for flashbangs?
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: H-Hour on February 08, 2013, 10:32:34 am
"Enemy moves, using up Enemy does anything that costs (x) TU."

And yes, when the aliens are using pistols they will RF more frequently. (And when soldiers use low-TU firemodes they will RF more frequently.)
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Triaxx2 on February 11, 2013, 02:24:10 am
Sorry. In short, until they start using rifles, stick with pistols.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: H-Hour on February 11, 2013, 12:35:19 pm
Sorry. In short, until they start using rifles, stick with pistols.

Or learn to move in cover, establish contact safely, fire from cover and use indirect fire. It doesn't have to be a western shootout. This old gem (https://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php?title=Scouting) for the original X-Com is still a must-read for UFO: Alien Invasion.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Sarin on February 11, 2013, 01:42:57 pm
Best weapons for early close range engagements are SMG and riot shotgun. But after aliens deploy first armor, they become ineffective.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Triaxx2 on February 11, 2013, 02:07:21 pm
I always move from cover to cover, and fire under the best cover available, but it doesn't really help, particularly when the aliens move to shoot me and no one can fire because they've used one less TU than necessary to trigger RF, which they almost always do. Pistols are the order of the day early on.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Sims on February 11, 2013, 03:23:09 pm
I think you guys should use more smoke grenades and gas grenades ...  Kneeing and waiting to RF an Alien just won't do it.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: H-Hour on February 11, 2013, 03:27:55 pm
Then create your own cover (http://www.desura.com/games/ufo-alien-invasion/images/smoke-grenades-in-25).

(edit - oh, Sims beat me to it!)
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Triaxx2 on February 12, 2013, 12:55:20 am
I would except I'm advancing two by two. One guy moves while the one behind him stays still in RF. Then the guy that advanced holds still in RF and the other guy advances. Smoke isn't much help because the aliens just run through it.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: H-Hour on February 12, 2013, 01:15:13 am
It seems to me you're making some poor tactical choices and then blaming the game when your strategy doesn't work well. When my strategy doesn't work, I try another one.

You should be bringing your whole squad into the picture and not splitting them up. Two soldiers are almost never enough to safely take on any alien threat. They'll need assistance, especially if you're relying a lot on RF. I'll clear a small building with groups of 3-5 minimum on small indoor maps and put all 6-8 into overlapping fields of fire in outdoor areas with better lines of sight. Occasionally you'll be stretched thin if you spawn in the middle of the map and have to cover 360 degrees, but that's where smoke grenades are indispensable to cut off angles of exposure. Playing defensively -- managing your exposure -- is often far more important than racking up kills quickly.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Sims on February 12, 2013, 10:02:37 am
I agree with H-Hour. I got killed many times before i starting to use smoke Grenades. The 2.5 is relay more strategic. I like that. And i also don't panic when i loose a soldier some time. It is part of the game.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: tembero on February 12, 2013, 03:22:08 pm
{exerpt from ufo xcom enemy unknown} turn 1 - smoke thrown out of back of skyranger, soldiers moved out into smoke. turn 2, 4 soldiers remain of the original 14 after soldier glimpsed in skyranger by blaster launcher equiped alien. Anger at loss of Colonel causes agressive seek and destroy. Turn 3 - 1 soldier has not been cut down by reaction fire but is now panicking. Turn 4 - Game Over! I believe the aliens are a little playable than in the original XCOM.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Triaxx2 on February 13, 2013, 04:01:00 am
Yes, but now since we start outside the drop ship it tends to go more like: Turn 1 - Soldier tries to throw smoke, is cut down by Reaction Fire. Repeat until out of soldiers.

The tactic works perfectly actually. It's that reaction fire seems to be utterly pointless is what I'm getting at. The idea of reaction fire is that it's supposed to give the soldiers a chance to shoot back when the enemy is having it's turn. Unfortunately, it seems they're getting no benefit unless you're using pistols because of the seriously disparate TU costs. There seems to be little reason to use RF and waste TU when they can be better spent taking shots at the enemy.

Frankly I don't bother getting attached to soldiers. They're entirely disposable now. One hit and it's just seeing how much damage they can do before they bleed out.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: krilain on February 13, 2013, 11:37:42 am
The tactic works perfectly actually. It's that reaction fire seems to be utterly pointless is what I'm getting at. The idea of reaction fire is that it's supposed to give the soldiers a chance to shoot back when the enemy is having it's turn. Unfortunately, it seems they're getting no benefit unless you're using pistols because of the seriously disparate TU costs. There seems to be little reason to use RF and waste TU when they can be better spent taking shots at the enemy.
The reaction fire is unfortunately the only way to progress prudently through the map for an alone soldier, and maybe at first turn for all. But, I also try to group 2 by 2 or more my guys, unless if I'm sending someone on a roof. The reason for that is the TU cost for RF can be saved if you have enough visibility, and being 2 allows you to cover more angles.

However, at the approach of corners, and at the early campain, there is nothing as efficient as awaiting the ennemy with RF+pistols / flammer.

Setting on the RF for every turn and throwing smoke everywhere is not my prefered combination. But one isolated soldier, that moreover shouldn't hurt a friendly unit accidently, must use it, there is no better choice.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Triaxx2 on February 13, 2013, 08:17:14 pm
That's the benefit of the two man team. If the leader spots an enemy around the corner, the rear guy can't be seen so he can move up if he has to and throw grenades over whatever the corner consists of. The port is a good example. If the first guy turns around a cargo container, and see's an alien, the second guy can then skip grenades over the top of the container. If the first guy fires, the alien fires first and he ends up bleeding out.

Large, open maps don't mean anything. I've learned to identify them, and send a team of half snipers and half guys with no guns, but Medkits. It's more effective and efficient to stand back and shoot with Sniper Rifles than try to close and end the fight. RF at that range will miss most of the time and having medkits within useable range means no deaths.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: jerzy_cz on February 13, 2013, 09:43:31 pm
For large, open maps I hide my snipers inside smoke cloud. I send spotter to see the enemy, quickly retreat and then shoot from inside the smoke...
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Triaxx2 on February 14, 2013, 01:09:13 am
Waste of a Grenade. With four snipers, you can finish the entire alien group before more than one or two shots land.

Incidentally, I started a new game with the latest version ie 2-12-2013, and it's much better than before, though the inability of snipers to wear armor is pretty stupid.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: krilain on February 14, 2013, 01:29:57 am
Incidentally, I started a new game with the latest version ie 2-12-2013, and it's much better than before, though the inability of snipers to wear armor is pretty stupid.
I've to see this , thanks for the aknowledgment sir ;_)
(..) it's much better than before, though the inability of snipers to wear armor is pretty stupid.
In general I would agree with such a remark. If the association sniper+armor has to be discouraged, I'm OK with the idea, the way to do this shouldn't be to make it impossible. I would prefere a malus on the accuracy, or applyable on the stealth when it will be implemented. That's normal to have difficulties to shoot when you wear a heavy armour, however, you still can shoot so if some people prefere, let them do.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Triaxx2 on February 14, 2013, 02:55:57 am
The problem is that most of the maps aren't large enough to use the sort of stealth a sniper excels at. Being so far away that only a lucky shot will hurt them, and only a couple will kill them. I had my first mission be in the graveyard map, which is awesome, and I killed three of the four aliens on the map, and had the fourth one fire twice and instantly kill one of my two snipers. I did a little math and had he been wearing the armor, he'd have survived. He was literally within the one square effective range of someone's medkit, which is a rare enough circumstance. Since he can't wear armor and make an aimed shot, he ends up going into battle in his pyjamas, which are not at all protective.

I'd rather the imposition of a movement penalty for the armor. If you're wearing too much armor, you should be using 3 TU to move, not be unable to shoot.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Sarin on February 14, 2013, 07:35:38 am
That's odd, every recruit starts at 30+ strength, that's enough to wear combat armor, sniper rifle, spare reload and couple of grenades, that's bare minimum you need. So you are either playing a game started before the weight was implemented so your soldiers have too low strength, or you are trying to reach the TU bonus, and that limits your loadout options too much to make the snipers effective.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: krilain on February 14, 2013, 11:51:15 am
So you are either playing a game started before the weight was implemented so your soldiers have too low strength, or you are trying to reach the TU bonus, and that limits your loadout options too much to make the snipers effective.
This armor issue is about the last nightly release. I havn't played it yet.
I'd rather the imposition of a movement penalty for the armor. If you're wearing too much armor, you should be using 3 TU to move, not be unable to shoot.
I wouldn't say unable to shoot, I would say hampered. In my opinion it is easier to shoot with accuracy when you wear light.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: H-Hour on February 14, 2013, 12:19:47 pm
Sarin is correct. I'm not sure what you guys are on about, but snipers can wear armour just fine. I really wish you guys would take more time and care to ensure that what you're saying is accurate.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Triaxx2 on February 14, 2013, 03:02:52 pm
Really? This is what happens when I equip armor: http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll274/Triaxx2/ufo00_zpsf80228f8.jpg
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Sarin on February 14, 2013, 04:05:56 pm
Medikit and secondary weapon right off the training, that's not a good idea. Start off with just bare minimum, maybe just drop the medikit (2 kg), and maybe spare mag for pistol or if you want to keep medikit, don't give him pistol yet. I found that I never use them anyway, at ranges they're remotely useful it's better to lob a flashbang followed by frag grenade. If you select your recruits well (I recommend taking only 30+ mind, 20+ accy and speed, 35+ strength, 20+ assault or sniper skill), they'll quickly gain enough strength to carry whole load (around 20 missions max to get over 40 strength). I do this: choose just the recruits that fit these criteria and add some fodder to fill whole team, and gradually month by month I replace fodder with better recruits. Losses of fodder are irrelevant.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Noordung on February 14, 2013, 06:06:18 pm
Better take more ammo for sniper rifle instad od pistol. You dont need medikits on every solider. Just make sure if you split your Groups that every group has at least 2 soliders with medikits. You also dont need IR goggles on sniper since using it will probably left with not enough TUs for shot anyway.

Never had any problems with weight in 2.5 version. And after 65 missions all of my soliders can easily carry power armour, weapons, additional ammo, few granedes, and medikit.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Sarin on February 14, 2013, 06:10:31 pm
Only map where I actually fired more than one magazine of sniper rifle ammo per soldier was dam. I never ever had need for more than one reload for most weapons except rocket launcher.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Quizer on February 14, 2013, 07:21:08 pm
No. RF is extraordinarily simple in terms of calculations and there are no die rolls involved. Please, everyone, search the forums before spreading false speculation. The RF mechanism has been explained many times and these ill-informed comments only spread misinformation.
I don't mind at all how reaction fire works, but the information about how it works really, really, should be available in-game. Either split up into several 'Tip of the day' segments, or some kind of Help section that doesn't yet exist. There could be a 'Game Mechanics' section in the UFOpaedia that spells out various basics of gameplay. Reaction fire is an integral part of how combat works, and it is not something the player should be left wondering about.

Failing that, it would be useful for that information to be easily visible on the wiki or on the forums in a sticky, rather than buried in some long-forgotten thread. If I enter 'reaction fire mechanics' or 'RF mechanics' or 'game mechanics' or other permutations of these things into the search bar, I ought to be able to find what I'm looking for, but I don't. The search engine of these forums just isn't very good - it doesn't prioritize keywords found in topic titles over keywords found in posts, and it doesn't prioritize a result with the entire search string just as you entered it over a result with the keywords strewn all over the place.

If this information was easily accessible, there wouldn't be so many questions and baseless speculations about it. This (http://ufoai.org/wiki/Reaction_fire) isn't sufficient for the player to base an informed decision on.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: GPS51 on February 14, 2013, 07:47:08 pm
Agreed, It took me a couple of days of trying to read through threads (some of which were quite old) to sort out just what/how RF works. Well enough to know that it's worthless for anything more then a pistol.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Sarin on February 14, 2013, 07:59:28 pm
Actually, plasma rifle, needler or assault rifle with EP ammo, set on 3 round burst/short burst mode, can be quite devastating later on when soldiers are experienced enough to make those hits count, and armored enough to force aliens use some more TU-hungry fire modes. Shotgun and later plasma blaster set on ball can be useful too. I've even scored some kills with 5-round burst RF from machinegun....

Pistols are actually quite useless for RF, since you get off a shot quick but it won't kill the alien. Not even two pistol rounds will do, and by the time he gets to fire those two shots, he'll be full of plasma.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: GPS51 on February 14, 2013, 08:06:05 pm
I tried all those (bear in mind this was a month ago~). Only the shot gun "sometimes" got a blast off. The rest no matter how far aliens walked/shot either didn't get a shot off 90% or missed 10%.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Triaxx2 on February 14, 2013, 08:31:06 pm
Snipers stay together in the rear and the only other soldier that would be in range is the Rocket Launcher guy, who also has armor issues. On the other hand, if an alien gets into sight, the pistol might be the only weapon that doesn't trigger a reaction shot. Guess I'll just stick with no armor and keep replacing the snipers.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Sarin on February 14, 2013, 08:49:55 pm
If you are facing alien and can't outmaneuver him before shot, drop a flashbang or smoke grenade instead.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: H-Hour on February 14, 2013, 09:36:32 pm
the information about how it works really, really, should be available in-game.
We're planning to add a section to the ufopaedia for basic game concepts like reaction fire, wounding, etc.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Sarin on February 14, 2013, 09:43:50 pm
Bleeding and stun seem to be funny statuses. I had a situation in my game just a while ago where alien, apparently injured and shaken by the crash, got hit by machinegun fire, bled a while, this stunned him, then he awoke, the bleeding stunned him again, he awoke again, and then died.

The stun mechanics from crash are interesting, I haven't used any stunning weapon yet and I have 8 live aliens+2 who died before I researched alien breathing apparatus.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Quizer on February 14, 2013, 09:50:17 pm
We're planning to add a section to the ufopaedia for basic game concepts like reaction fire, wounding, etc.
Good to hear. :)
Quote from: Sarin
If you are facing alien and can't outmaneuver him before shot, drop a flashbang or smoke grenade instead.
Flashbang is really the only one you have a good chance of getting off without much risk, since it takes only 6 TU to throw unlike other grenades. By the way, does it matter whether the flashbang explodes in the target's field of vision?

As for reaction fire, I usually find it worthwhile to use for fire modes that use 8~12 TU. More than that is only really worth it if you have good cover and / or distance to work with. Is there some kind of accuracy threshold you have to hit for soldiers to bother to fire, though? Or doesn't it matter as long as that alien walks around in your field of vision?
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Sarin on February 14, 2013, 09:59:13 pm
I'm not sure about the chance of hit.

Flashbangs have area of effect similar to other grenades. It doesn't matter if it explodes in front or behind alien, as long as he's close enough.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Triaxx2 on February 14, 2013, 10:09:27 pm
Stunning is very strange. I had one alien get stunned after getting burned with a flame thrower. I never got to use my Stun rod, because I didn't need it. Strange.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Sarin on February 14, 2013, 10:26:53 pm
If you shoot down UFO, some aliens will spawn injured or partially stunned, so they go down easier. I've had an alien go down stunned after just one hit from assault rifle. But they will still bleed after they are stunned, I've seen a few die this way.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: krilain on February 14, 2013, 10:36:27 pm
Only map where I actually fired more than one magazine of sniper rifle ammo per soldier was dam. I never ever had need for more than one reload for most weapons except rocket launcher.
Sure, for one map, but it occures that you chain 2 or 3 missions, including rescue for instance. For this reason, taking additional amno or a secondary weapon cant be discouraged totally.
Flashbangs have area of effect similar to other grenades. It doesn't matter if it explodes in front or behind alien, as long as he's close enough.
Added this to allow Mattn to answer ;)
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Mattn on February 14, 2013, 10:38:09 pm
this is not true - flash grenades do a field-of-view check and only affect those victims, that are looking into the direction of the explosion.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Sarin on February 14, 2013, 10:49:01 pm
Odd. I'm sure I had aliens flashbanged from various angles.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: H-Hour on February 14, 2013, 10:54:16 pm
Is there some kind of accuracy threshold you have to hit for soldiers to bother to fire, though?
Someone did some tests recently and found RF would not activate under a certain accuracy % threshold (maybe 25%?). This may account for a lot of the perception that it "doesn't work", especially if people are routinely trying to RF at distance with single-shot firemodes. We're considering reducing or eliminating this threshold.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: krilain on February 14, 2013, 11:02:48 pm
Someone did some tests recently and found RF would not activate under a certain accuracy % threshold (maybe 25%?). This may account for a lot of the perception that it "doesn't work", especially if people are routinely trying to RF at distance with single-shot firemodes. We're considering reducing or eliminating this threshold.
Can I ask some question about a thing that intrigates me, so that I would sleep better this night? How comes that there is a need for testing to learn about the RF threshold (which I'm sure is existing because RF is sometime erratic) ? Wouldn't it be easier to read the code at the section dedicated to RF? It is a 2 cents question I suppose, but I'm not a coder so pardon my ignorance.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Triaxx2 on February 15, 2013, 02:03:01 am
My guess is that the accuracy might change from tile to tile and angles might reduce the accuracy. So if the alien comes straight on, you might get to 25% accuracy farther away, than if they come from an angle. Or perhaps the point at which they've used enough TU to trigger reaction fire isn't the same point at which they're over the threshold.

It also might not be possible to read an exact number from the code. It might be in a different format than what the game reports.

---

I'm finding myself loosing 1-2 soldiers per mission. It's making it a little awkward to try and do multiple missions. I've reconfigured loadouts so I can have everyone in armor, but it's not helping.

Also, I've got a Firebird landing at the mansion, but the Map is very badly messed up. Restarting the game and computer both failed to help. Where do I upload the save for you?
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: krilain on February 15, 2013, 02:35:09 am
My guess is that the accuracy might change from tile to tile and angles might reduce the accuracy. So if the alien comes straight on, you might get to 25% accuracy farther away, than if they come from an angle. Or perhaps the point at which they've used enough TU to trigger reaction fire isn't the same point at which they're over the threshold.
That sounds very possible.
It also might not be possible to read an exact number from the code. It might be in a different format than what the game reports.
Maybe, but thus it means that something has been coded for behaving very basically, and however some unexpected things have occured in real implementation. Is this what you mean?
Also, I've got a Firebird landing at the mansion, but the Map is very badly messed up. Restarting the game and computer both failed to help. Where do I upload the save for you?
It has been reported . For my part I've met mansion as the first map of my last launch concerning last version. So I figured it was a direct effect of some bugs. With the gentle help of H-Hour, a ticket is opened about this in the 2.5dev bug section. (in campain, not skirmish - in skirmish I test 2 maps and crashed for twice)
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Triaxx2 on February 15, 2013, 08:40:35 am
Actually I was saying that since the hit chance displayed by the game itself is only a general estimate of the actual chance to make a shot, due to the calculation necessary for an accurate estimate being more complex than can be done in a timely manner, 25% could represent several specific numbers only some of which might over lap with those high enough to be able to trigger reaction fire, thus introducing a minor random element. Thus a high 25 might trip reaction fire, where a low 25 might not.

So run it as an auto mission? No problemo.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: H-Hour on February 15, 2013, 10:24:27 am
The explanation is more basic: the person doing the tests was not a developer or coder, just someone interested in figuring it out. See the later pages of this thread (http://ufoai.org/forum/index.php/topic,7261.0.html).
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Quizer on February 15, 2013, 12:42:57 pm
Actually I was saying that since the hit chance displayed by the game itself is only a general estimate of the actual chance to make a shot, due to the calculation necessary for an accurate estimate being more complex than can be done in a timely manner[...]
I wonder if it could be coded in such a way that the game first gives you the estimate, and then, if you continue holding the mouse over that square, it would start calculating the real accuracy, but break off if you move the mouse somewhere else. Due to the way aiming works, you don't ever need to calculate more than one accuracy value at a time, so I don't see why it should be any more complicated than actually firing.

Is it that firing doesn't actually calculate accuracy in any way, and calculating hit chance via the combat engine would amount to running a Monte Carlo Simulation with a large number of shots to approximate the hit chance? If it's like this, I could see how it's troublesome...
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Telok on February 16, 2013, 10:04:19 am
Is it that firing doesn't actually calculate accuracy in any way, and calculating hit chance via the combat engine would amount to running a Monte Carlo Simulation with a large number of shots to approximate the hit chance? If it's like this, I could see how it's troublesome...

From my understanding this is essentially correct. What I believe happens when you fire is that the engine takes the soldier's accuracy and the weapon's spread value, mushes the two numbers together, sprays your ammo down range at an angle determined by RNG and the mushy spread number, and then checks the hit boxes like a first person shooter. So the shooting engine never develops or uses a %hit chance. The number reported on your targeting mouse-over is a fuzzy guesstimate from somewhere in the UI code (I think, don't quote me on that one because it's a logic guess).

For real fun:
The reported %hit has no effect on RF. Soldiers may or may not RF anywhere between 0% and 90%+
RF is more likely to happen if your chosen RF mode shoots more bullets.
RF will not happen outside the weapon's listed range (in squares).
Higher soldier stats and skills will mean more frequent and accurate RF. Expect +30% RF if you double the soldier's stats and triple the skills.
Some weapons (and it's definitely the weapons) will RF through a LoS blocking alien.

From the tests I've run a noob soldier with a sniper rifle at 50 squares will take about 50% of the RF (Aimed Shot, crouched, 23% reported hit chance) chances he is offered. And it's about a 50/50 chance as to whether he'll take the RF before or after the provoking action.

From the tests I've run a noob soldier with a machine gun at 65 squares will take about 60% of the RF (Full Auto, standing, 00% reported hit chance) chances he is offered.

I do actually know some coding and am currently going back to school to complete the degree, so if you'll tell me which module the RF code is in than I'll try to look at it.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: krilain on February 16, 2013, 01:45:47 pm
Thanks for this complete summary. However, I would like to point an element.
/.../
the engine takes the soldier's accuracy and the weapon's spread value, mushes the two numbers together, sprays your ammo down range at an angle determined by RNG and the mushy spread number, and then checks the hit boxes like a first person shooter.
/.../
This is a thing that I've tried to figure out many times. Is there any hit box check, really? It would fall finally on such a thing as depicted below so that the effective hit rate would finally be given by:
But this includes so much parameter in uphill, as the presence of obstacles, that would be a little the same to calculate the things with no real evaluation of those areas. Using shooter parameters (skills / weapon), environement parameters in the line of sight (night/day / obstacle_on/off and amount), and targeted object parameters (armour / crouch_on/off indicator) would lead to similar result, even more quickly.

I add this just as a matter of discus. Final rates remain testable as you did. Only causes are obscured.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: GPS51 on February 16, 2013, 09:15:06 pm
Just wanted to say that I really like the changes to the tech tree made in the recent days/weeks. The researching of the alien light armor leading to laser weapons feels much more "right" and adds to the gameplay. More specifically the rewording of the tech briefings (like the electromagnetic rifle) makes more sense and feels less like a placeholder paragraph :) Keep up the good work.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: DarkRain on February 18, 2013, 04:48:03 am
The thing with reaction fire and hit chance is that the game will actually fire several mock shots and check the results for of enemy and a of friendly units hit, cancelling reaction if not enough of the former or too many of the later are hit (moral state determines how many are 'too many' here)

also here is the reaction fire code: https://github.com/ufoai/ufoai/blob/master/src/game/g_reaction.cpp (https://github.com/ufoai/ufoai/blob/master/src/game/g_reaction.cpp)
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: jffdougan on February 18, 2013, 08:00:17 pm
We're planning to add a section to the ufopaedia for basic game concepts like reaction fire, wounding, etc.

I'll one-up the "cool" that was posted a little while ago: If developer/coder types will put together a list of those things they wish to see in a "Basic Game Concepts" section, writing up those areas is one place where I could productively contribute.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: H-Hour on February 18, 2013, 10:11:13 pm
I'll one-up the "cool" that was posted a little while ago: If developer/coder types will put together a list of those things they wish to see in a "Basic Game Concepts" section, writing up those areas is one place where I could productively contribute.

Code: [Select]
Basic Concepts (Campaign)
 Research
 Production
 UFO Interception
 UFO Disassembly
 Nation Happiness
 
Basic Concepts (Ground Combat)
 Time Units
 Reaction Fire
 Soldier Weight and Encumbrance
 Wounds and Healing
 Flashbangs and Field of View

Please note that we want these to be very simple, short, clear and straightforward. Consider this a how-to on the absolute basics, not a strategy guide. Please also realise that I or others will probably change and edit any text you contribute, but a head-start will still be appreciated.

If there are other concepts that need to be explained, suggest them, but don't feel bad if we reject. This is really just the basics, not a full manual.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: krilain on February 19, 2013, 01:42:55 am
Code: [Select]
Basic Concepts (Campaign)
 Research
 Production
 UFO Interception
 UFO Disassembly
 Nation Happiness
 
Basic Concepts (Ground Combat)
 Time Units
 Reaction Fire
 Soldier Weight and Encumbrance
 Wounds and Healing
 Flashbangs and Field of View
Just as a hot suggestion, if the text could come with some explicit and simple illustration, it would be ideal. I made some attempt for RF and TU, just for giving a try. It could not exactly fit, not only because it is draft, but above all because it is not simplified to the extrem.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: jffdougan on February 20, 2013, 06:53:56 pm
Code: [Select]
Basic Concepts (Campaign)
 Research
 Production
 UFO Interception
 UFO Disassembly
 Nation Happiness
 
Basic Concepts (Ground Combat)
 Time Units
 Reaction Fire
 Soldier Weight and Encumbrance
 Wounds and Healing
 Flashbangs and Field of View

Please note that we want these to be very simple, short, clear and straightforward. Consider this a how-to on the absolute basics, not a strategy guide. Please also realise that I or others will probably change and edit any text you contribute, but a head-start will still be appreciated.

If there are other concepts that need to be explained, suggest them, but don't feel bad if we reject. This is really just the basics, not a full manual.

Check. I think I can tackle most of these.

Is it easier to make them new wiki pages, or to put them into the current online manual, or elsewise?
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: H-Hour on February 20, 2013, 09:44:38 pm
No, just share the text in the forum or via PM.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: solbu on February 23, 2013, 04:46:21 pm
Someone did some tests recently and found RF would not activate under a certain accuracy % threshold (maybe 25%?). This may account for a lot of the perception that it "doesn't work", especially if people are routinely trying to RF at distance with single-shot firemodes. We're considering reducing or eliminating this threshold.
Since this is discussed, I thought I'd think out loud with an idea that crossed my mind when reading this post just now.
Is it possible to have this as an option, so those who like the reaction fire the way it is can still have the threshold?

I have no idea on how complicated or dificult it might be to create the option, just thought I'd share the idea.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Telok on February 25, 2013, 11:49:57 pm
Since this is discussed, I thought I'd think out loud with an idea that crossed my mind when reading this post just now.
Is it possible to have this as an option, so those who like the reaction fire the way it is can still have the threshold?

I have no idea on how complicated or dificult it might be to create the option, just thought I'd share the idea.

Having checked the RF code linked above I've found ambiguities. What I have found that isn't ambiguous is that the code simulates 100 mock shots for each RF. Apparently if any shot hits an enemy and fewer than 5 (or more, there's code for morale and possibly mind control in there) shots hit allies then the RF is a go.

This explains why full auto RF is more likely to happen than single shot RF and why you get more RF on clusters of close enemies than on single targets. The more ammo you send downrange the more likely you are to hit an enemy.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Patupi on April 06, 2013, 11:46:33 pm
I'm glad I'm not the only one who has had issues with RF. I admit I'm not sure whether it's better or worse since 2.4, since I didn't play that version through very far and the aliens didn't get beyond plasma pistols. At that level whether 2.4 or 2.5dev it seems still challenging at times, but not impossible. later game, as soon as the aliens start using plasma rifles, it becomes a nightmare. I've sent guys out to check to make sure the zone is clear around a cover spot, gone to cover, then had an alien move, what must have been twenty squares, walk right by about six guys, all on overwatch with a variety of weapons, walk by them, still in view (I spread the angles of my guys) turn and kill 1 to 2 of them with auto fire before anyone fights back.

It just seems rather extreme, plus whether using bullets or captured plasma weapons, the reptilian aliens (forget their name off hand; Sheeva?) seem a little over powered. They have tons of TUs, have enough armour/hps to withstand bullets or plasma damage from numerous hits (a little less from plasma, but not much), carry heavy weapons and are bright enough to flank and ambush. In reality I'm sure this is what anyone planning such invasions would go for, but in a game don't you want to balance things? Have some aliens with high move rates but limit either weapons load out or have them light on armour/hps? It just seems a heck of a leap from Tamans to these guys. That with the RF issues make some maps pure hell. Sometimes I can't get out of the Firebird and position for one or two turns before getting half my team wiped out.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: H-Hour on April 07, 2013, 10:32:18 am
I've sent guys out to check to make sure the zone is clear around a cover spot, gone to cover, then had an alien move, what must have been twenty squares, walk right by about six guys, all on overwatch with a variety of weapons, walk by them, still in view (I spread the angles of my guys) turn and kill 1 to 2 of them with auto fire before anyone fights back.

AFAIK, the visibility check occurs on a per-soldier basis -- this means if an alien walks out of view of a soldier at any point, the RF counter resets for that soldier. So even if the alien was in view of at least one of your soldiers at all times, he was likely dropping in and out of view of the different soldiers, which caused their RF counter to reset. The aliens actually seem pretty smart in using this against the player -- not sure if that's built in to the AI or just a by-product of some other calculations.

The Shevaar's drawbacks will become more apparent as you go further into the campaign. Some maps are pure hell, yes. We hope to address this better in the future. In the meantime, use a lot of smoke on those maps to stay safe(r).
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Patupi on April 08, 2013, 10:44:23 am
OK, in the game I'm on currently part of it was lack of reasonable weaponry. For some reason alien light armour just didn't appear for ages, thus no laser research beyond ship and base weapons. With laser rifles and their pulsed autofire on RF things are slightly better (Still haven't managed to get the cash together to make any nano-armor for the troops though!) but still aliens are walking right through any defensive line and wasting people left and right from point blank range, even when I have a choke point the enemy has to come through to make sure they are ALWAYS in sight of my guys continuously! The solar array for instance with it's main entrance.

With laser rifles I have had one or two instances out of several dozens where my guys manage to actually shoot the enemy on RF before he walks up to one square away and blast my guys. It just seems odd that the enemy tactic seems to be basically individual suicide mode, especially when they aren't present in overwhelming numbers (say, crashed fighter). Even odder that it works for them! I've still had half my squad wasted like this. Having to 'replay' missions continually to avoid this kind of thing defeats the object of not having a save game in the combat missions (which honestly I agree with, if the combat was a little better balanced).

One other thing that has bugged me through all versions of this game. No auto save on geoscape prior to a mission. Admittedly, in a finished game it's probably not a big thing, but right now with crashes (admitedly not as prevalent as it used to be) it's really annoying! I've only had one crash to desktop since using 2.5, but I've had quite a few missions where I almost gave up, constantly trying to 'replay' missions and wanted to go back and just ignore that crash completely, but I didn't think to save prior to the mission. Also still getting the odd 'crash' where the mission just ends with no mission report, just goes back to geoscape, firebird is mysteriously back at base and all troops have vanished from the game. I've had this a lot in all versions of the game and it's still happening (though not as much again on 2.5). So far it's happened on the military bunker and one other map (I forget which one at present). An auto save would really help with that!
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Patupi on April 08, 2013, 10:56:47 am
One other thing while I'm thinking of it. I'm not sure if this is an illusion or not but it seems as if the enemy knows precisely where my soldiers are all the time, whether they can see me or not. I had suspicions on that for a while, but it came to a head on a base defense mission. I had troops below ground and above ground on opposite sides of the map. My above ground troops rounded a corner and spotted a Sheevar on the other side, very close to my other group underground, facing those underground troops position, waiting. Since it hadn't spotted my above ground troops I went back around the corner into hiding and waited. Another spot view next turn showed him barely two squares from where he was, still facing my underground troops. Next turn (still spotting with above ground troops) I moved my underground troops forward, still out of sight but getting closer to the exit. The Sheevar immediately went round the corner towards my under ground troops and blasted them now they were in range.

Was it psychic detection? Was it hearing the underground troops? If the later how come my guys can't hear the enemy out of sight? Something is again a little imbalanced here. Whatever mechanism is being used seems too accurate, letting the enemy chose it's approach to avoid ambushes almost exclusively and place their own very effectively. That in addition to stronger troops (on average), more accurate weapons fire (hover nets seem to shoot my guys from across the map 1/3 of the time on average for example), and more TUS seems a little overpowering!
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: H-Hour on April 08, 2013, 11:47:01 am
Patupi, it sounds to me like perhaps you're not using RF correctly, so I'll ask a couple basic questions which you probably already know about and do, but just to be sure:

1. Do you know that you need to reserve TUs for reaction fire? Your soldiers won't automatically RF during the alien's turn. They must have enough spare TUs for their selected RF firemode.

2. Are you turning RF on? There is a RF button and you must activate it or your soldiers will not RF.

3. Are you relying on higher TU firemodes in reaction fire? I typically rely on 8 TU firemodes for RF (AR/Laser snap shots, shotgun/plasma ball). Anything higher and the aliens can usually get off a shot without catching return fire.

... An auto save would really help with that!

I'm pretty sure an autosave is made. Maybe you have to use F9 to reload it? Not sure about that. I never used it, but many people do. Hopefully one of them will tell you the load procedure.

When you crash from battlescape back to geoscape, please attach your ufoconsole.log (where to find it (http://ufoai.org/wiki/Bugs#Useful_bug_reports)) to a bug report on our issue tracker (http://ufoai.org/bugs/).

Was it psychic detection? Was it hearing the underground troops?

The AI always knows where you are. This is common in many games as it's very difficult to create a challenging AI if they don't know where to look. AI improvements are always welcome, but it's a bit of a specialised field and hard to attract talent.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: ShipIt on April 08, 2013, 04:37:01 pm
The game auto-saves before each mission to 'slotquick.savx'. This is the same as saving by <F5> and can be loaded using <F9>.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Patupi on April 08, 2013, 10:27:03 pm
Thanks for the help on this H-Hour.

1&2) Yes, I am holding enough time so I can enable the 'engage RF' button. I generally don't use the button above; the 'Reserve TU' or whatever it says. As far as I can see you don't HAVE to use the 'Reserve TU' button to make RF work. With the engage RF button on it stops you from using what it needs for that particular mode (selected on the fire popup menu). I generally just keep the engage RF down when I'm holding position and disengage it when I'm trying to move to a new spot (with attempts at covering my people while their moving, but little luck with that yet).

3) Until recently I wasn't aware that rapid fire was better and RF worked better with shorter TU using weapon modes. So I now do know why laser's pulse mode works so well. Fairly short TUs and has 6 shots. I'm not sure what calculation it uses to compare what TU's your weapon mode uses and what TUs the enemy has left at any given moment, but I'm aware it multiplies it's checks based on how many shots the weapon mode uses.

One other thing. I've heard that certain skills of the soldier improves Reaction Fire. Is it an average of all of the improvements or is it a certain specific skill such as speed or mind? I'd more think it'd be specific to the weapon type, and maybe be an average of speed and weapon type (such as heavy, assault etc).

Another quick query. The game used to use the weapon skill 'Heavy weapon' on certain weaponry, but now these have specific other skills like 'explosive' or 'close'. What use is improving heavy weapons skill? Does it improve handling heavy weight weapons? I thought strength handled that? Also there seems to be a sharp division between normal encumberance and over encumbered. Going from max move 31 suddenly down to 19 when you pick up a grenade seems a tad extreme! Shouldn't it go down gradually?

(EDIT: Thanks for the info on autosaves Shipit! I hadn't checked the key commands in so long I'd forgotten (or never knew!) that there were short cut keys for quick save/load. I thought it was only on the save/load menu!)
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: H-Hour on April 09, 2013, 09:08:30 am
I'm not sure what calculation it uses to compare what TU's your weapon mode uses and what TUs the enemy has left at any given moment, but I'm aware it multiplies it's checks based on how many shots the weapon mode uses.
The RF match-up is a straight TU-to-TU comparison. If a RF firemode costs X TU, the unit will RF against a target after they spend X+1 TU in visible range of the unit. This is why low TU firemodes are better for RF -- the target gets to spend less TUs before receiving reaction fire.

The idea that multi-shot firemodes (burst/auto) are "better" in RF is false, IMHO. The number of shots only effects how RF understands its chance to hit. If a unit has a low chance to hit, it may decline to RF. More shots means more chance to hit, and therefore less chance it will decline to RF, but in my experience this is only relevant if you regularly rely on RF over long distances.

Throughout much of the game, aliens are using primarily 8 TU firemodes, so effective defensive RF requires (IMHO) 8 TU firemodes as well (the alien spends 10 TU moving into view and firing). A couple extra shots in a burst firemode is not worth the extra 4 TU, as aliens can then enter view, fire and step back out of view before receiving fire. The 12 TU firemodes are only effective over medium-long ranges, when you're confident your soldier can take fire (unlikely to be hit) and you want to increase the chances your RF will hit its target.

One other thing. I've heard that certain skills of the soldier improves Reaction Fire.
No, there is no stat which effects RF.

Another quick query. The game used to use the weapon skill 'Heavy weapon' on certain weaponry
It will be removed before 2.5 ships. It's now useless.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Patupi on April 09, 2013, 10:28:02 am
The RF match-up is a straight TU-to-TU comparison. If a RF firemode costs X TU, the unit will RF against a target after they spend X+1 TU in visible range of the unit. This is why low TU firemodes are better for RF -- the target gets to spend less TUs before receiving reaction fire.
Hmm, which is problematic. Often the enemy isn't in line of fire very long, favoring running round corners right up to you and firing repeatedly. To be able to actually damage him it needs to be both high damage AND short TU operation, which is rare. Wave damage on lasers (pistol especially) would likely fire then, but not be enough damage to actually stop anyone. Though with multiple guys all there to hit... maybe. I'll try using a combination of shotguns and laser pistols next time.

On a related subject, since long ago on a different game I gave up trying to use smoke grenades effectively and somehow never tried it in this one... I was in error! I just tried using them and definitely like them. Helps a lot in using mobile cover. Still aliens seem to plow into the smoke and open up at point blank range, but usually they don't seem to have much TU left to do much, for whatever reason. Odd since even without smoke they tend to walk straight up to you before firing *shrugs*

Out of interest H-Hour, do you happen to know if the computer DOES allow the aliens to know your precise position continually or is there some 'sense' of where humans are if not in view? Does it just remember last position and what seems to be their attacks are just coincidence? It seems a little much. I've had aliens wait and wait, but just as I move in range (despite being out of sight) they wizz round the corner and blast me.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: H-Hour on April 09, 2013, 11:39:19 am
Hmm, which is problematic. Often the enemy isn't in line of fire very long, favoring running round corners right up to you and firing repeatedly. To be able to actually damage him it needs to be both high damage AND short TU operation, which is rare. Wave damage on lasers (pistol especially) would likely fire then, but not be enough damage to actually stop anyone. Though with multiple guys all there to hit... maybe. I'll try using a combination of shotguns and laser pistols next time.
Definitely use multiple soldiers for effective RF. It's easy to miss and, as you said, most 8 TU firemodes are not enough to kill outright (shotgun is the star weapon for close-quarters defense). On corners, don't put soldiers should-to-shoulder, because the aliens are good at finding lines of fire to pick off a soldier on the edge without exposing themselves to the other soldiers. Instead position a standing soldier one grid behind a crouched soldier, who is in turn one grid back from the edge of the corner, so the alien must walk fully into view before firing on them.

On a related subject, since long ago on a different game I gave up trying to use smoke grenades effectively and somehow never tried it in this one... I was in error! I just tried using them and definitely like them. Helps a lot in using mobile cover. Still aliens seem to plow into the smoke and open up at point blank range, but usually they don't seem to have much TU left to do much, for whatever reason. Odd since even without smoke they tend to walk straight up to you before firing *shrugs*

Out of interest H-Hour, do you happen to know if the computer DOES allow the aliens to know your precise position continually...
The AI always knows where you are. This is common in many games as it's very difficult to create a challenging AI if they don't know where to look. AI improvements are always welcome, but it's a bit of a specialised field and hard to attract talent.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Patupi on April 09, 2013, 09:18:17 pm
Well, I tried multiple soldiers on low TU weapons, even going so far as to try pistols (haven't made enough laser pistols to use yet) but it was pretty hopeless. A couple of times the enemy does come up and get shot at, but mostly they come out of cover and pot shot someone (often kill shot as I still haven't got the money for advanced armor yet!), often two shots before anyone can return fire. With pistols, when they worked, I got six direct hits on a Sheevar and didn't really affect him. Hopefully laser pistols will be better for that, though the stated damage of 25 on the snapshot is not promising! I've had laser pulse strikes from the laser rifle hit multiple times before taking one down, so a shot with that much less damage is likely to barely scratch him!

On the AI front I sort of assumed it would be a combination of random, group exploration, combined with mission parameters (hunt civilians/soldiers if seen) and that they'd have an expanding locus of attention based on last known position. A 'watch and wait' mode once enemy position is known, but is not in sight right now, is reasonable (which I've seen) but as I said they seem to move on the attack whenever you get close, way before they should know you are in range! Right now I don't see a way for any ambush set up by the player to work at all reliably... if ever! The only way to win seems to be to advance rapidly from cover to cover, or to advance retreat, attempting to catch the enemy when they leave cover... problematic at best, and heavily dependent on the map.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Patupi on April 13, 2013, 03:28:07 am
OK, still not going well on reaction fire, even with laser pistols, but using smoke grenades, hiding most of my people (with laser rifles or stun tasers) and then having a couple of laser pistol guys run out of cover and spot for those in cover works great. Still getting awkward bits at entrances to buildings, but other than that it seems to be a good tactic... with the aliens I've met so far at least. Nothing beyond Taaman, Sheevar, Bloodspiders and the hovernet
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: GPS51 on April 13, 2013, 06:06:34 am
Smoke grenades are the #1 used item in my games for a reason. Just lob 1 or 2 (depending on spread) to cover your group and then let the aliens charge you. You just have to make sure to get LOS every turn by moving at least 1 unit out of the smoke. No more dealing with strange RF, just efficient combat!
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Visitor on April 14, 2013, 04:56:00 pm
Hello. After years following losing my account and two random failed attempts on the way with making another, I show up to share a few thoughts about 2.5 dev and the thing I also find not overly good about it - a good excuse for making an account again, at last, even if probably I will use it somewhat rarely.

I see the whole discussion went to the topic of tactics, but the problem I see in the game, a thing that irritates me currently, is not just the fact that aliens have overpowered RF (though it should be balanced) but how generally stats are set for them. In the first months of the game (in-game time, of course) when I see a skinny taman clad in it's armor but still walking casually through half of the map, shooting (with deadly accuracy) one of my marines with his bulky plasma blaster and still having enough AP in reserve for RF I can only call bullshit, especially since by comparison soldiers of 'competent' level in stats get half as much mobility with the weight of just standard issue outfit - assault rifle, spare magazine, grenade and armor.

I can understand that aliens have to have a bit above-average stats to make up for AI shortcomings (together with alien powers to detect every living creature on the map etc). I can also understand that there are ambitious players, veterans of many X-com games who want a constant challenge and threat but making every little alien ultra-mobile sniper stopping rockets with it's face on Normal difficulty I find to be a plain mistake and a waste of opportunity of making different enemy types/species different (since, especially late-game every one of them is comparatively resistant, quick, strong and heavily armed).

I'd suggest leaving hardcore aliens for hardcore difficulty and offer normal enemies for normal difficulty which, as far as I know, is suggested for regular player hoping for balanced play. Balancing alien stats and their progression thorough the game, setting some stat cap on them and so on will take care of both matrix-RF-reflexes of aliens and general combat silyness where, while I still in the end can win, I am forced to experience situations where in case of aliens, max range = optimal range and my sharpshooters barely equal medium-range accuracy of random alien weaklings with sidearms. It's not a challenge at that point, it's breaking the immersion for me.

That being said, I have to disagree with statement that 2.5 sucks. Right now, again - despite it being a dev version - I have quite some fun with it (alien commando at every difficulty and few maps glitched recently excluded) and I thank the devteam for their work.

A few other things I am lacking currently:
Progression is nice, seeing aliens deploy new ships and armaments is nice but it's sad some stuff disappears for the sake of scaling difficulty - in the late-game I'd like to see, even in token amount, aliens still taking a kerrblade or two for harvesting mission, packing a plasma grenade in addition to their rifle or sending occasional scout ship in geoscape - things that would improve immersion a bit as they realistically would maintain their usefulness thorough invasion campaign.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Patupi on April 15, 2013, 10:51:26 am
I too do not think 2.5 sucks, exactly. I just get so frustrated with it I give up for a little while every now and then. Plus I don't think the aliens have TONS better RF than the human player. RF seems to suck all round, just a little more for the humans, though that may just be the accuracy of the aliens and the fact they are almost always seem to be set in a good position.

Yes, alien accuracy seems high. I've seen a hovernet from literally across the map sniper my guys 50% of the time which seems excessive when my laser rifles seem to have an accuracy of 8% at that range! And yes I was kneeling! OK, I know it might have been coincidence but it seems to happen way too often. True with smoke grenades a lot of these troubles do go away, but it seems a kludge fix to me, and not being able to set any defensive position is just wrong in my opinion. As far as I can tell if I set up a careful crossfire, use snap shot only on RF, have good armour (currently the first nano armour) I can get 1 out of 6 of the aliens that pop up. The others all seem to shoot me once or twice before I can get a shot in, they invariably hit where I miss occasionally even at short range (due to being forced into snap shot when they aren't) and even with my armour sometimes they one shot me. IRRITATING!

Still, at least I have found a way around that, even if it forces me on a constant staged offensive.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: korda on April 21, 2013, 10:28:39 pm
I don't think that it's ok when game has content that requires so much in-depth knowledge about game mechanics, tactics etc. It's stupid. It just pisses off normal players. I really can't understand how you can give that advices here H-Hour, if they are required to play and succeed at normal difficulty why aren't they written in bold letters in-game? I would expect to see a discussion about advanced tactics for harder game modes here...

After reading through some threads I have feeling that this game is being changed for harder-better enthusiasts.

Btw, is 2.5 really so hard? I'm playing 2.4 on easy now, I wonder how strong punch in my face will 2.5 be for me...
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Denthar on April 22, 2013, 01:37:37 am
Btw, is 2.5 really so hard? I'm playing 2.4 on easy now, I wonder how strong punch in my face will 2.5 be for me...

If you don't use smoke and flashbangs, it's a bloody nightmare.

If you do, then it's fairly easy up until some of the later aliens appear with what's essentially a super shotgun.


I also want to say something about this post from H-Hour:
The AI always knows where you are. This is common in many games as it's very difficult to create a challenging AI if they don't know where to look. AI improvements are always welcome, but it's a bit of a specialised field and hard to attract talent.

Just because aliens always happen to know where you are, doesn't mean they have to behave like they've got a direct line of sight.

While I've never done AI in my life (if I had, I'd offer to help), I've got a pretty good notion that either state machines (and some other bits and bobs) or fuzzy logic could be very useful in giving the AI a bit more variety and kill off the homing notion.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Visitor on April 25, 2013, 08:07:00 am
To be honest, I don't mind homing that much - and actually, in bigger maps there's still a lil glitch where aliens will stand guard in corners of it instead of closing in on Phalanx troopers.

I'd still claim that the problem lies in the stats of aliens that make all kinds of creatures annoying when they home - they seem as they get no weight penalties from stuff on top of great attributes and plain unfair amount of TU, forcing player to basically go through the whole game exploiting one or two tactics with little wiggling room and plenty of redundancy if one wants to avoid heavy losses - so, still beatable, just not fun.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: H-Hour on April 25, 2013, 10:46:23 am
You can check your theory by playing as the aliens in skirmish mode. You'll find that even the hovernet, which has way more speed than any other alien, only gets slightly better TU (less than 30% over average phalanx rookie). And as this chart (http://ufoai.org/wiki/File:Accuracy-with-weapons.png) shows, accuracy and weapon stats on average have only a marginal effect on actual accuracy. It's effective at the very upper ranges (which the phalanx soldiers can never reach), but because non-robotic alien weapon stats have such a wide spread, its not easy to predict where they will fall on this spectrum.

As an example, a hovernet will only have around 15% better accuracy than a phalanx recruit firing an assault rifle on snap shot.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Visitor on April 28, 2013, 12:45:02 am
Compared teams in skirmish mode (thanks for suggestion!), my theory was confirmed - it may not be accuracy skill on it's own, but it shows that starting alien groups have very high skills in general - while Phalanx recruit starts with around-average weapon proficiencies - at best - and possibly is barely competent in one or two categories (usually mind and/or strength):

- average taman is between very good and outstanding in mind, with proficient accuracy in case of the whole team and between very good and outstanding proficiency in every weapon class - quite 'upper ranges' unreachable by Phalanx H-Hour mentioned - on top of average strength and often - competent speed, thus outclassing even experienced, decent human trooper in most stats, often by several degrees.

- all other alien races are comparable to that, with some of them having all three - accuracy, speed and weapon proficiencies high enough to explain going thorough long distances, then still being able to shoot and/or RF with high accuracy. Even if enemies like hoverbots don't have weapons in-built during single player campaign, all alien units - including tamans - have also enough strength to be armored and carry decent assault weaponry without being over-encumbered, while also requiring less items in general (hoverbots or bloodspiders cannot bleed out or panic and thus wouldn't need first aid kits even if AI would care about preserving troops and not have unlimited numbers of them).

Optimistically assuming that alien stats don't get higher than that thorough the campaign as per raising tenacity of invading force, basic invader mooks are more capable - AI aside - than the best and most experienced human infantry, and that not counting weaponry/armor which is understandably and logically superior, at least a first and for which - if I am not mistaken (do tell if it was only fluff /rumour/changed feature) - aliens get additional bonuses in comparison with Phalanx.

There are no weak aliens. Even basic 15% higher chance of scoring a hit (and it does seem higher than that - was weapon proficiency taken into account?), when considering damage dealt with alien weaponry coupled with regular psychological mechanisms making failure more impressionable than success - especially when using limited resources - explains why many people in this and Mary Sue Aliens thread (http://ufoai.org/forum/index.php/topic,7318.0.html) seem to indicate it's nearly only the shortcomings of AI and exploitation of a few tactical maneouvers that allow the player to win.

Edit: Adding a link, cleaning up the text.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: H-Hour on April 28, 2013, 10:55:27 am
Visitor, please go back and read my post again. The point is that even though aliens have much higher stats, this does not have a strong influence on TU or accuracy, as the chart (which does account for accuracy and weapon stats) showed. To test this in Skirmish mode, you should play as both the aliens and phalanx, using the same weapons to compare compare accuracy at similar ranges.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: ManicMiner on April 28, 2013, 01:03:04 pm
Hi

I started the Mary Sue thread and haven't posted much since so just to quickly summarize where we are from my POV - constructively!

Firstly I like the weight enhancements and the simplification of the weapons classes / skills (IMO "heavy" + "High Explosive" made better sense if merged). The AI and game rules are, IMO, overcomplicating things and this is where some of the issues crop up.

Perhaps the answer is to have a sanity check on how the gameplay can be made a bit more intuitive. A good start would be to ensure heavy/HE weapons need to be two-handed across the board. Anything designed to be held in one hand shouldn't be "heavy".

RF should be a dual concept thing: reacting to an unexpected enemy appearance, AND "lying in wait". At the moment it's all of the former, none of the latter.

I'd like to see the RF modes set to either. So, for example, sniper shots given an accuracy boost if the soldier is holding the weapon "2-handed" AND knelt/lying down at the end of the round if he/she is "lying in wait" rather than standard RF but there should be a time penalty for enabling that mode in addition to having enough movement points left over to pull off an aimed shot with an accuracy boost.

Standard RF should apply if an alien walks into view and shoots at your grunt who just happens to be holding a laser rifle in one hand so he/she can retaliate. Only snap shots or "spray shots" should be used unless the soldier is armed with a light one-handed weapon like a plasma pistol. No human or alien should be able to pull off a sniper shot or an aimed shot when shooting a heavy/2 handed weapon from the hip while standing up.

The aliens should be subjected to these exact same conditions.

Secondly the aliens should have one penalty than your grunts don't because your grunts should have the element of surprise and have a good idea where they'll be in relation to the dropship, whereas even if they are expecting organised resistance the aliens have other mission goals, like terrorizing citizens and rounding up cattle.

So if you've got an alien with a grenade in one hand and a heavy weapon in the other walking out of a building and seeing the dropship in Round One, it shouldn't be able to pull off a pinpoint-accurate aimed shot in the Round 2 RF unless it's dropped the item in the other hand, knelt down and preserved enough TUs to actually perform that shot after its round has ended.

Or something like that.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: noctilucus on April 29, 2013, 03:35:23 pm
... The AI always knows where you are. This is common in many games as it's very difficult to create a challenging AI if they don't know where to look. AI improvements are always welcome, but it's a bit of a specialised field and hard to attract talent.
Maybe too simple, but how about setting the area of/around the phalanx ship as target for the aliens until they start seeing phalanx soldiers?
Another possibility would be to add 1 characteristic to each phalanx soldier's position: as long as it hasn't been spotted yet, set to 0 meaning the AI will ignore those position. As soon as the soldier has been spotted, set it to 1 and continue to give the AI full knowledge of that position. This sort of assumes that the aliens are clever enough to keep track of your soldiers after they've been spotted once.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Garavani on May 11, 2013, 07:12:45 pm
Hey guys just dropping my two cents though it's just an echo of what has been said by many others.  I really enjoyed 2.4 and turned a lot of my friends onto the game.

I understand the devs have been playing the game a lot more than me and require a greater challenge to have fun, and since no one is paying you that is your right, it's your game. 

In my opinion 2.5dev is too hard for the casual player, and even for someone who is fairly apt at tactical games if feels like you have to lean on what I consider cheesy tactics (smoke grenades) in order to win with acceptable loses.  This will turn off the vast majority of your players though.

Just my thoughts, please don't reply with "It's fine just learn some tactics".  If the game frustrates me when 2.5 release launches I just won't play.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Duke on May 14, 2013, 11:56:08 pm
I recently applied a small but significant change to reaction fire.
Not really a bugfix, but let's call it a fix for a design bug.

There was a check for visibility that tested 3 points of the target: eyes, belly and feet. If two of them were not visible, it was considered a bad hit chance. Reasonable so far. The problem was that if visibility was interrupted, the reaction timer was reset (as intended) and started over.

After the change only one of the three points is needed. That will result in
- reaction occurring earlier
- RF hitting the cover more often.
Overall, RF should *feel* much more right now.

So everybody who complained about RF not working is encouraged to get latest HEAD from git and try again.
Have fun :)
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: ShipIt on May 19, 2013, 09:12:29 am
Confirmed RF feels quite different now. Soldiers blasting away there ammo with every none-zero chance to hit. I wonder when people will start to complain about this.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: ShipIt on May 20, 2013, 10:33:23 pm
There was also this (https://github.com/ufoai/ufoai/commit/34ea5edf6ca161104ec6f07ee3d1aca3af0490e4) commit, which prevents aliens on certain missions from fielding the advanced weapons. This makes some missions much easier.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Merlin on May 24, 2013, 09:50:56 am
There was also this (https://github.com/ufoai/ufoai/commit/34ea5edf6ca161104ec6f07ee3d1aca3af0490e4) commit, which prevents aliens on certain missions from fielding the advanced weapons. This makes some missions much easier.

Oh thank god. I'm playing on 2.4 and those guys end up with hightech weapons right as I make one D-F ammo. I swear those guys are watching me. Hopefully 2.5 will give me some breathing room on some missions.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: ShipIt on May 24, 2013, 07:39:34 pm
... Hopefully 2.5 will give me some breathing room on some missions.

Humanity is in great danger! The aliens come to take us down! No time to take a breath!

Tbh, the missions are much harder to solve in 2.5.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: GPS51 on May 24, 2013, 07:56:14 pm
I always got a kick out of shooting down a scout late game and having 6 pb rifle toting heavies come rolling out. Sounds like steps are being taken to polish off a few of these quirks :)
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Merlin on May 25, 2013, 02:29:56 am
Humanity is in great danger! The aliens come to take us down! No time to take a breath!

Tbh, the missions are much harder to solve in 2.5.

I hope so, as my usual tactics haven't changed in forever. For example, downed UFO; Bazooka the biggest danger, snipe him if he lives or move on to others, start moving out those that haven't shot.

I tend to blow through my TUs as I can't seem to get my guys to reaction fire. But enough people have talked about that. I just dislike when my flamethrower at full TUs on overwatch, is looking at the door and 3 aliens walk by him without him shooting one. So my usual tactic for most the game is movement.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Duke on May 26, 2013, 12:43:18 am
Merlin, about flamethrower RF: try again now ;)
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Merlin on May 26, 2013, 10:55:03 pm
Merlin, about flamethrower RF: try again now ;)

Haven't been able to try flamers yet in 2.5. But on the note of weapons, what's the research path to Laser Rifles?

EDIT: Oh and how do Medikits work? They don't seem to heal anymore nor stop bleeding out.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: ShipIt on May 27, 2013, 06:28:40 am
Haven't been able to try flamers yet in 2.5. But on the note of weapons, what's the research path to Laser Rifles?

EDIT: Oh and how do Medikits work? They don't seem to heal anymore nor stop bleeding out.

About Medikits there is a thread already where most of your questions should be answered already.

About Laser Rifles, well, its part of the game for you to find out whats going on.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Merlin on May 27, 2013, 07:24:25 am
About Medikits there is a thread already where most of your questions should be answered already.

About Laser Rifles, well, its part of the game for you to find out whats going on.

What's going on is that I'm in April, hoverbots hurt, and no upgrades to my ground troops besides keriblades and plasma pistols. If I have to actively catch one of those hoverbots I'm gonna be in for some pain.

EDIT: Oh and this may have been mentioned but something is wrong with the harbor map. I can't go about height 4 or 3. Makes getting into those cranes or buildings impossible.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: ShipIt on May 27, 2013, 07:47:40 am
What's going on is that I'm in April, hoverbots hurt, and no upgrades to my ground troops besides keriblades and plasma pistols. If I have to actively catch one of those hoverbots I'm gonna be in for some pain.

Back in 2.4 the Laser weapons research felt like wasting time. The player could get the more powerful Plasma weapons within the same time frame. So we delayed the appearance of the handheld Lasers, which now outperform the Plasma weapons in many ways. But you are on your own to find out how to get them. Oc I can tell it´s not about catching a Hovernet.

You play the nightly build of 2.5-dev? Whats the build date of your version (see main menu screen)? What difficulty level?
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: ShipIt on May 27, 2013, 07:56:06 am
...
EDIT: Oh and this may have been mentioned but something is wrong with the harbor map. I can't go about height 4 or 3. Makes getting into those cranes or buildings impossible.

The maxlevel (some level buttons are greyed out so you cannot access them) does not influence the playability of the map. It´s just a relic from those days back in time when computers did not have unlimited processing power.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Merlin on May 27, 2013, 08:05:31 am
Back in 2.4 the Laser weapons research felt like wasting time. The player could get the more powerful Plasma weapons within the same time frame. So we delayed the appearance of the handheld Lasers, which now outperform the Plasma weapons in many ways. But you are on your own to find out how to get them. Oc I can tell it´s not about catching a Hovernet.

You play the nightly build of 2.5-dev? Whats the build date of your version (see main menu screen)? What difficulty level?

I just feel odd as I have like nothing to research right now. Heck right now it's climb up the UFO parts tech tree.

As for the game, May 25 is the date on the main menu. Running on normal, and I just bumped into a terror mission. Found a new alien(Or the green one from 2.4 in a new skin) and plasma rifles. But then I found out the map was wonky and quit. Also, while I don't feel the aliens are any tougher(hoverbots are op), I do feel that the maps are way more stacked against me than the older maps. That or I just memorized everything about them.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: ShipIt on May 27, 2013, 08:51:23 am
I just feel odd as I have like nothing to research right now. Heck right now it's climb up the UFO parts tech tree.
...

In 2.5 we tried to reduce the mission count. Along with the changed research tree this might result in an empty research queue for some players in the very early stage of the campaign.

... the map was wonky ...

?

...
 Also, while I don't feel the aliens are any tougher ...

There were no changes made regarding this. But because of the weight/encumberance and wounds system the missions are harder to solve imo.

...
 I do feel that the maps are way more stacked against me than the older maps. That or I just memorized everything about them.

Because of a bug in the map selection code in 2.4 (and presumably earlier versions, too) you only saw a small part of the available maps. E.g. most of the time you shot down a UFO in 2.4 you would have to play the "+ufocrash" map. This was fixed, but oc not every map is as good as it should be. If you feel like a map needs to be impoved, you are invited to write your thoughts down as a feature request in our issue tracker (http://ufoai.org/bugs/ufoalieninvasion).

Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Merlin on May 27, 2013, 09:19:38 pm
Actually I'm in June, with a terror mission looming. As for the map that was wonky, it was titled like "Harbor". It had these rasied platforms on stilts with a staircase going up to them. I saw some workers run down them in a panic, but could not raise my veiw to see the actual platform. So if an alien gets up there, I can't do anything about it.

So far I like 2.5. It's a bit more kick you in the teeth but you can tell there's issues with it. Maps, wounds, and RF still a bit wonky. I just posted thoughts in this topic as it's like the main discussion topic for it, even if the title is wrong.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: UFOhunter on May 28, 2013, 05:38:55 pm
I've played 2.5dev now for over a year (game time of course) and thought I'd add my two cents:

Overall the game is still great. Fighting the aliens is more difficult than I remember from 2.3/4, but generally it's good to keep it challenging. Re op - flashbangs are definately working in my game. I also get RF for my own guys, though rarely (no prob for me though), and in comparison to that alien RF seems a bit over the top...

Other than that:

1. It's cool to have smoke grenades to hide yourself, but when hiding "in the clouds" becomes the primary thing to do in some maps it is imo less fun. Also firing out of the smoke screen just to avoid getting killed feels a bit like cheating, but otoh with so deadly aliens it remains often your best choice.

The above seems to be related partly to starting positions on certain maps - sometimes your tough elite guys prefer to approach the combat zone from the worst thinkable tactical position, which means you throw smoke grenades around for some time until finally finding cover.

I never tried the map editor - can you actually modify starting positions there?

2. I have no prob with the Aliens having superior capability for reaction fire, but when they hit  (nearly) everything 20-30 squares away, but otoh do nothing when you crouch or run directly in front of them it feels strange.

3. It seems particle rifles and needler guns are the most advanced weapons? If so I'm wondering whether they're coming too early or if research is too fast generally. As said, I'm in the game for over a year now and for a good deal of time the aliens only use those two basic categories of weapons and nothing else anymore.

Maybe alien teams could still use a bit variety in equipment in later battles, maybe depending on their role or UFO to make things more interesting.

Is it actually possible to mod which (of the available) weapons aliens use in specific missions and from a certain point in time?

4. Power armour slows you down a tad? I thought I get one of those nifty power suits that amplify human power ;) Also, it seems to do worse vs. later alien weaponry (said particle thingies). Is this intended?

5. Sometimes alien behaviour is strange - on some maps they are super-aggressive, on others more passive. This wouldn't be a prob in itself, but sometimes it's contrary to the specific type of mission you play. For example in base attacks only some of them enter my base, but the bulk stands around outside doing nothing until I hunt them down. Otoh I'd expect them to be more on the defense when their UFO just got knocked out of the sky by PHLX interceptors.

6. There are some nice maps I have not seen before, but overall there seems to be less variety than I remember. I skimmed through other threads, read some maps have probs now, so maybe this is only a temporary issue.

7. When firing multi shots using beam weapons like lasers and PBs the beams sometimes start way besides the weapon (probably a known prob)

8. Imo, aliens should die more often instead of get stunned purely from wounds. At least in my campaign I barely had to make serious efforts to capture aliens alive because many simply got stunned during combat (maybe luck on my part though).



Overall still a great game, far from "sucking completely" :)


Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: H-Hour on May 28, 2013, 07:00:09 pm
1. Starting positions are a big part of the problem, but general lack of cover is the heart of the issue. Yes, you can modify these in the map editor, and its not terribly difficult to add more cover. More mappers with the will to fix up these tactical issues would be great.

3. Are you mixing up "particle" and "plasma" weapons? Particle shouldn't come until pretty late in the game, maybe a year in. Although if you're playing Very Hard they'll come sooner.

Alien equipment was recently changed so that even late in the game you will face some of the lesser weapons. To mod this further, look into /base/ufos/equipment_missions.ufo as well as /base/ufos/alientype_missions.ufo.

4. Early on in the 2.5-dev cycle, power armour performed worse against particle weaponry, but this was fixed a while ago. Are you using recent builds?

5. These are pathfinding issues in the AI. The base is the worst map for them, because aliens generally try to move as close as possible to your soldiers, even if that's on the ground directly above them (and it usually is).

8. I found this as well. Stunning was not necessary. Worth fixing at some point, but I haven't looked into it.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: kurja on May 28, 2013, 07:24:03 pm
#5

Would it be possible, with reasonable effort, to have some sort of "nav point" thingie for AI aliens in the maps? Like an invisible object the AI would want to home in on, and the nav point thingie probably should disappear after a set number of turns... okay that's not a quick thing to implement but would enable mappers to direct the aliens a bit.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: ShipIt on May 28, 2013, 07:35:25 pm
...
8. Imo, aliens should die more often instead of get stunned purely from wounds. At least in my campaign I barely had to make serious efforts to capture aliens alive because many simply got stunned during combat (maybe luck on my part though).
...

This happens on crash sites, where some aliens are already hurt so they have only few stun points left. And, as H-Hour said, I never had to actively stun an alien during my campaign, too.

...
Overall still a great game, far from "sucking completely" :)

Good to hear from time to time.  ;)


After all, I played some more missions and found the changes in RF and the adjustments to the alien weaponry are really changed the "feel" of the game. Your soldiers are using the RF much more liberally, so now it is easier to trap aliens in good positions. Also, because of the changed weaponry the overall difficulty in the late stage of the campaign went down. That´s because your vets in Power Armour have no problems to survive a hit from a Plasma Blaster/Rifle, so they can fire back afterwards.

So, if you play 2.5-dev, make sure your version is up-to-date.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: UFOhunter on May 28, 2013, 07:37:01 pm
Thx for the answers.

Re version, I installed the full version from the Win nightly build thread

"ufoai-2.5-dev-1351893478-Debug-pentium-m-O1-sse2-7z-small-win32.exe"

I didn't use the update utility yet, maybe I should do that. I just have to get around silly AVG to give false alerts...
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: H-Hour on May 28, 2013, 07:53:50 pm
We now offer nightly builds you can download for windows, so you don't need the update utility. Look under the Development section on our download (http://ufoai.org/wiki/Download) page and download the "UFO:AI installer". That is updated regularly.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: ShipIt on May 28, 2013, 08:50:14 pm
#5

Would it be possible, with reasonable effort, to have some sort of "nav point" thingie for AI aliens in the maps? Like an invisible object the AI would want to home in on, and the nav point thingie probably should disappear after a set number of turns... okay that's not a quick thing to implement but would enable mappers to direct the aliens a bit.

We have something similar for civvies. Not sure if it works, though.

Biggest problem is, nobody is actively developing or even maintaining the AI code. Oc DarkRain did some fixes and improvements, but I doubt we can make big steps soon.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: kurja on May 28, 2013, 10:52:58 pm
We have something similar for civvies. Not sure if it works, though.

Biggest problem is, nobody is actively developing or even maintaining the AI code. Oc DarkRain did some fixes and improvements, but I doubt we can make big steps soon.

yay, but if that already exists, do you think it would be possible for a mapper to use it to direct the alien team?
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: ShipIt on May 29, 2013, 06:20:39 am
yay, but if that already exists, do you think it would be possible for a mapper to use it to direct the alien team?

Right now it´s just for civilians (info_civilian_target).

Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Mattn on May 29, 2013, 08:59:57 am
Actually I'm in June, with a terror mission looming. As for the map that was wonky, it was titled like "Harbor". It had these rasied platforms on stilts with a staircase going up to them. I saw some workers run down them in a panic, but could not raise my veiw to see the actual platform. So if an alien gets up there, I can't do anything about it.

Maybe worth a bug ticket - then we won't forget this bug.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: kurja on May 29, 2013, 02:43:45 pm
Right now it´s just for civilians (info_civilian_target).

Yes, I meant if the same could be implemented for alien team with reasonable effort to enable suggested function.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: UFOhunter on May 29, 2013, 04:59:03 pm
We now offer nightly builds you can download for windows, so you don't need the update utility. Look under the Development section on our download (http://ufoai.org/wiki/Download) page and download the "UFO:AI installer". That is updated regularly.

Thx for the hint, I now changed to the latest build.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Merlin on May 30, 2013, 07:50:32 am
More I play the more I'm beginning to change my mind about 2.5

1) Weapon nerfs/changes - Shotgun, Grenade Launcher, and Bazooka all seem to have been weakened.

2) Research is slower - The rate you go up the tech tree seems to be much slower. I've had about 2 weeks go by with my guys sitting at their stations playing bejeweled since they have nothing to do.

3) Aliens are tougher - this one is a debatable complaint. I'm seeing the aliens do insane shots which happens far more often that I think it's the normal thing for them, even if this is an 'XCOM' like game. Alien Blasters and Hoverbots are probably the worse with insane range and the Bots having a huge pool of TU.

4) Maps favoring the Aliens - Now I know I only saw a small pool of the maps in 2.4, but they seemed rather even with a few being a pain. The Mansion and the Supermarket are two. But the maps here seem to favor the aliens a lot, starting you off with poor cover or putting the aliens in places that you have no way of getting to for the first couple turns while they shoot you. That and shot down aliens UFOs having about the same number as UFOs that land seems unfair.

I'm save scumming far more in this game than I did in the ACTUAL XCOMs. Mainly due to the fact that I have a limit to the soldiers I can throw at them.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: H-Hour on May 30, 2013, 11:09:53 am
1. Try other weapons then.

2. You have nothing to research? What have you got researched already? Easier campaign difficulties progress more slowly, so if you're playing on Easy or Very Easy you're more likely to encounter dead time.

I'm seeing the aliens do insane shots which happens far more often that I think it's the normal thing for them

This is UFO:AI's equivalent of "The RNG hates me" (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=RNG).

4. There are lots more maps you'll encounter in 2.5-dev. Many of them aren't very good, but it was decided that variety is more important, since players may face around 100 missions in a campaign.

Mainly due to the fact that I have a limit to the soldiers I can throw at them.

Are you sure? You get tons of soldiers in 2.5. You should be able to sustain pretty heavy losses and still recruit. I lost about one soldier per mission throughout my game and had plenty of extra recruits available at all times.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: kurja on May 30, 2013, 02:53:15 pm

1) Weapon nerfs/changes - Shotgun, Grenade Launcher, and Bazooka all seem to have been weakened.
There are improvements to be found in tech tree for some of the conventional weapons

4) Maps favoring the Aliens - Now I know I only saw a small pool of the maps in 2.4, but they seemed rather even with a few being a pain. The Mansion and the Supermarket are two. But the maps here seem to favor the aliens a lot, starting you off with poor cover or putting the aliens in places that you have no way of getting to for the first couple turns while they shoot you. That and shot down aliens UFOs having about the same number as UFOs that land seems unfair.

Untill recently aliens were basically idiots waiting to be slaughtered, in 2.4 it was a rare event to lose a soldier and some of the maps were built with this in mind... Get into mapping if you want this fixed :)
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Merlin on May 30, 2013, 09:42:03 pm
1. Try other weapons then.

2. You have nothing to research? What have you got researched already? Easier campaign difficulties progress more slowly, so if you're playing on Easy or Very Easy you're more likely to encounter dead time.

This is UFO:AI's equivalent of "The RNG hates me" (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=RNG).

4. There are lots more maps you'll encounter in 2.5-dev. Many of them aren't very good, but it was decided that variety is more important, since players may face around 100 missions in a campaign.

Are you sure? You get tons of soldiers in 2.5. You should be able to sustain pretty heavy losses and still recruit. I lost about one soldier per mission throughout my game and had plenty of extra recruits available at all times.

1) What can my soldiers use unless they are Riflemen or snipers? Close or Heavy, why are you here? Get out.

2) Before I was complaining how fast it was to get plamsa weapons and alien tech. But for a good month my guys were basically doing nothing.  Plasma weapons hadn't shown up, I had researched the two aliens that were attacking, and only UFO scouts and fighters were running around. So yeah I had nothing to do on Normal for about half way into April to near the end of May.

3) Yeah I know it's RNG hates me. But something is just off when an Alien can regularly hit my guys with a Plasma Blaster, an apparently Close range weapon.

4) This is a current complaint. I'm sure as time goes on the maps will become better. But it's either wait for that, take up modding, or work through the problem. Also base missions hurt since the cameras don't seem to be functional yet.

5) I'm losing about 1-3 soldiers per mission now. Maybe when I get better armor that number will decrease. But Blasters and Hoverbots are chewing through my men. And I only get more troops at the end of a month and if the country likes me. It's actually possible to run out of men in this game.

There are improvements to be found in tech tree for some of the conventional weapons

Untill recently aliens were basically idiots waiting to be slaughtered, in 2.4 it was a rare event to lose a soldier and some of the maps were built with this in mind... Get into mapping if you want this fixed :)

I'm doubting the weapon upgrades. Sure there's probably plasma grenades for the launcher but nothing for the others. I'm this close to firing all soldiers that don't have good assault or sniper stats.

Again the maps can be fixed with time. People have probably bought up the fact about the maps before so I'm late to the party. I'm just stating how I feel.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: kurja on May 30, 2013, 10:56:43 pm
I'm doubting the weapon upgrades. Sure there's probably plasma grenades for the launcher but nothing for the others. I'm this close to firing all soldiers that don't have good assault or sniper stats.

You have alien tech and teams of top scientists AND it's the future, why so doubtful? That being said, I agree that assault and sniper skills are rather important.

Again the maps can be fixed with time. People have probably bought up the fact about the maps before so I'm late to the party. I'm just stating how I feel.
ofc. I simply insinuated that you could start working on it, if that wasn't obvious :p
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: H-Hour on May 30, 2013, 11:38:23 pm
1) What can my soldiers use unless they are Riflemen or snipers? Close or Heavy, why are you here? Get out.
Heavy is deprecated and will be removed before 2.5 is finished. Close: SMGs/shotguns before you face armour, then just the riot shotgun with saboted slugs until you can research plasma blaster, which is really deadly. Explosives: grenade launchers and maybe Rocket Launcher depending on your style and the map. You should think of them as roles, not merely categories of weapons. Each has its particular strengths and your team should be assembled with that in mind. My personal approach is to use assault as my generalists, then bring along the other skill sets to cater to specific situations. The specialists can throw grenades (smoke, frag, flashbangs) to support other troops when they're not in an ideal position to use their primary.


2) Before I was complaining how fast it was to get plamsa weapons and alien tech. But for a good month my guys were basically doing nothing.  Plasma weapons hadn't shown up, I had researched the two aliens that were attacking, and only UFO scouts and fighters were running around. So yeah I had nothing to do on Normal for about half way into April to near the end of May.
Oh I thought you were talking about a gap further in. Yes, there's a bit of a lull early on, especially for experienced players who push hard on research right away. There's actually a "beginner's month" built into campaigns at normal difficulty and lower, so try hard difficulty to get right into the action quicker.

3) Yeah I know it's RNG hates me. But something is just off when an Alien can regularly hit my guys with a Plasma Blaster, an apparently Close range weapon.
IIRC, aliens have a tendency to use the snap shot and burst modes of the plasma blaster, which are more accurate than the primary ball mode. But I'd still contend it's a case of distorted perception. Our human brains tend to exaggerate the unexpected in our heads. If a shot has a 10% chance to hit, I won't take it because it seems almost worthless. But if I face 5 rounds from a 10% plasma blaster shot each alien turn, I'm likely to get hit a few times each mission. Each time it feels like a long shot, but that's just because my brain discards all the times it didn't hit.

I'm doubting the weapon upgrades. Sure there's probably plasma grenades for the launcher but nothing for the others. I'm this close to firing all soldiers that don't have good assault or sniper stats.
That'd be crazy. Explosives guys with grenade launchers almost always rack up the most kills. And I'd hate to take on some maps, like Shelter or even Oriental, without a close specialist or two.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Merlin on May 31, 2013, 09:53:53 am
I love the fact that I'm getting actual replies about my concerns. This is awesome.

Heavy is deprecated and will be removed before 2.5 is finished. Close: SMGs/shotguns before you face armour, then just the riot shotgun with saboted slugs until you can research plasma blaster, which is really deadly. Explosives: grenade launchers and maybe Rocket Launcher depending on your style and the map. You should think of them as roles, not merely categories of weapons. Each has its particular strengths and your team should be assembled with that in mind. My personal approach is to use assault as my generalists, then bring along the other skill sets to cater to specific situations. The specialists can throw grenades (smoke, frag, flashbangs) to support other troops when they're not in an ideal position to use their primary.
So the Heavy machine gun which didn't see any nerfs will be removed. Great. Anyway!

Close - SMGs/Shotguns? I don't use the SMGs, like ever. I rarely use side arms unless I have to. And Shotguns took a heavy nerf with only snapshot as their firing mode and what seems to be lower range.

Explosives - again, great weapons hit with nerfs. The grenades seem weaker and with burst fire out it's hard to kill aliens with just 1 shot. Rockets seem to have taken a nerf to the aim and more TUs to shoot. Why take them when a rifleman can lob 2 grenades and still move?

Oh I thought you were talking about a gap further in. Yes, there's a bit of a lull early on, especially for experienced players who push hard on research right away. There's actually a "beginner's month" built into campaigns at normal difficulty and lower, so try hard difficulty to get right into the action quicker.

That might explain some things. Main base had 3 labs(now 4) so I blew through research.

IIRC, aliens have a tendency to use the snap shot and burst modes of the plasma blaster, which are more accurate than the primary ball mode. But I'd still contend it's a case of distorted perception. Our human brains tend to exaggerate the unexpected in our heads. If a shot has a 10% chance to hit, I won't take it because it seems almost worthless. But if I face 5 rounds from a 10% plasma blaster shot each alien turn, I'm likely to get hit a few times each mission. Each time it feels like a long shot, but that's just because my brain discards all the times it didn't hit.

I have a tendecy that the aliens seem to have sniper like aim with a close range weapon. Why are they even allowed to use that from distance? Haven't used it much(No Close based soldiers remember?), but I believe the shotgun won't even let you shoot past range X. Why does the Blaster get a pass? More to the point, I can't say anything about their percentages because I never SEE theirs. I see mine.

That'd be crazy. Explosives guys with grenade launchers almost always rack up the most kills. And I'd hate to take on some maps, like Shelter or even Oriental, without a close specialist or two.

But there's no weapons that suit them well. I only have a close specialist or two for stunning. Otherwise on the bench. I also doubt that there's weapon upgrades beyond plasma nades for the starting human weapons. One reason I wanted to try to mod this was just for that reason.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: kurja on May 31, 2013, 10:53:58 am
So the Heavy machine gun which didn't see any nerfs will be removed. Great. Anyway!

Heavy skill is going away, nothing uses that skill anymore, afaik the machinegun isn't going anywhere

Close - SMGs/Shotguns? I don't use the SMGs, like ever. I rarely use side arms unless I have to. And Shotguns took a heavy nerf with only snapshot as their firing mode and what seems to be lower range.

smg's are extremely effective in early game, that is, against targets that don't have armour. Don't you use flamethrowers? Those are deadly against, well, anything.

Explosives - again, great weapons hit with nerfs. The grenades seem weaker and with burst fire out it's hard to kill aliens with just 1 shot. Rockets seem to have taken a nerf to the aim and more TUs to shoot. Why take them when a rifleman can lob 2 grenades and still move?
Rocket launcher certainly is cumbersome to use. As Phalanx commanders we can only hope that our scientists could improve their performance against heavy late game enemies.

However, remember that the Ex skill is also used for thrown explosives!

But there's no weapons that suit them well. I only have a close specialist or two for stunning. Otherwise on the bench. I also doubt that there's weapon upgrades beyond plasma nades for the starting human weapons. One reason I wanted to try to mod this was just for that reason.
Cdr. Navarre says he understands your frustration in this grave situation, but also insists that research for advanced terrestrial technologies should not be abandoned; given adequate resources, surely his team can come up with satisfying results.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: ShipIt on May 31, 2013, 11:43:09 am
That being said, I agree that assault and sniper skills are rather important.

Back in 2.4, in the beginning I researched the Bolter (Electromagnetic Rifle). After I had them, there was no more need to use any other weapon. My teams were usually six Bolter-guys and two using a GL. With this team I played from the beginning to the very end without loosing a single soldier.
Playing 2.5 you need a different mindset. You need to use a wider range of weapons in battlescape missions. And you will loose soldiers on your way to victory.

Cdr. Navarre says he understands your frustration in this grave situation, but also insists that research for advanced terrestrial technologies should not be abandoned; given adequate resources, surely his team can come up with satisfying results.

And when he finally comes up with a result, using this on the battlefield feels like cheating.  8)
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Visitor on May 31, 2013, 11:50:52 am
It seems that in the recent months, great many of people complained about RNG and aliens being marathon running snipers. I suspect that there was a change that makes the whole thing harder. I am not sure if there's connection but the funny thing is that if one plays on any but the easiest difficulty levels, phalanx troopers seem to have skills below average of what you can expect of professional soldier. Occasional 'average' here and there among the stats, and 'competent' in mind is often the best you can expect - but most of other stats indicate that the recruit is actually subpar to regular human being.

(Though I realize it's like that since ancient times - still, given the occasion and speaking about Phalanx troops being weak, maybe stat labels could be adjusted, if not stats themselves).
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: kurja on May 31, 2013, 11:56:46 am
Back in 2.4, in the beginning I researched the Bolter (Electromagnetic Rifle). After I had them, there was no more need to use any other weapon. My teams were usually six Bolter-guys and two using a GL. With this team I played from the beginning to the very end without loosing a single soldier.
Playing 2.5 you need a different mindset. You need to use a wider range of weapons in battlescape missions. And you will loose soldiers on your way to victory.

And when he finally comes up with a result, using this on the battlefield feels like cheating.  8)
Ah but let's not get ahead of ourselves, I'm as sure as you are that the results will be well worth the wait for but let's not pressure our research teams with such expectations =)
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: H-Hour on May 31, 2013, 06:00:47 pm
So the Heavy machine gun which didn't see any nerfs will be removed. Great. Anyway!
No weapons are going away, just the references to the skill in the UI. All heavy weapons have been re-classed as Close, Assault or Explosives.

Close - SMGs/Shotguns? I don't use the SMGs, like ever. I rarely use side arms unless I have to. And Shotguns took a heavy nerf with only snapshot as their firing mode and what seems to be lower range.

Explosives - again, great weapons hit with nerfs. The grenades seem weaker and with burst fire out it's hard to kill aliens with just 1 shot. Rockets seem to have taken a nerf to the aim and more TUs to shoot. Why take them when a rifleman can lob 2 grenades and still move?
This is why you shouldn't compare weapons as like-for-like (ie - "assault weapons are better than close weapons"), but should think of them as serving different purposes. Shotguns (and plasma blaster) are extremely powerful 1-shot, short-range weapons to be used in tight quarters and especially for reaction fire when you expect aliens to walk around a close corner. These guys can keep all your other guys safe in close quarters situations when you need a single, low-TU shot to kill the alien before it can get a shot off. Grenade launchers no longer have burst, but they do have much longer range than they used to, and way more range than a thrown grenade. That makes them all the more useful for indirect fire, bouncing around corners, shooting through windows and bursting a round off a wall next to an alien otherwise unreachable. This is a role no other weapon can perform well beyond a few grids. RPG accuracy was reduced (it used to be the most accurate weapon in the game, more than sniper rifles), but recently their power and splash radius has been increased quite a bit to compensate.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: UFOhunter on May 31, 2013, 08:24:03 pm
Played a bit around with the recent build. It certainly adresses some of the points I made earlier. One prob for me though is that I get now very often black squares on battlescape maps, and quite a lot of them. Checked the bugtracker, seems to be known as #4859 if I read this right. Still I can play on without probs, it doesn't crash, just looks weird. Different settings didn't help.

Additions and improvements I've seen so far are very nice. The previous version I had hadn't even the weight thing implemented :)
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Conan on May 31, 2013, 08:43:04 pm
Please make the "very easy" more easier, as I am in late game with power armour, stingray, hand particle weapons and my men still die like flies. I only choose my men based on strength as noobs get immediately overloaded with armour + 1 decent gun; also run out of funds and nations hapiness really quickly :(

Was there an earlier stable version of UFO AI where I could use 12 men mission? and where can I download earlier than 2.4?
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Merlin on May 31, 2013, 09:10:06 pm
Again I like the fact that I'm getting replies to concerns I have.

smg's are extremely effective in early game, that is, against targets that don't have armour. Don't you use flamethrowers? Those are deadly against, well, anything.
Rocket launcher certainly is cumbersome to use. As Phalanx commanders we can only hope that our scientists could improve their performance against heavy late game enemies.

Know what else is effective early? Assault rifles just with better range. And no I don't use flamers. It's probably going to be changed to "Close" but currently it's heavy in my version, I think. Maybe. Anyway, range is the game since aliens rarely get close and when they do they tend to kill the person they got near. And unless the lab boys figure out how to make anti-matter rockets for ground troops I'm probably not going to use it.

This is why you shouldn't compare weapons as like-for-like (ie - "assault weapons are better than close weapons"), but should think of them as serving different purposes. Shotguns (and plasma blaster) are extremely powerful 1-shot, short-range weapons to be used in tight quarters and especially for reaction fire when you expect aliens to walk around a close corner. These guys can keep all your other guys safe in close quarters situations when you need a single, low-TU shot to kill the alien before it can get a shot off. Grenade launchers no longer have burst, but they do have much longer range than they used to, and way more range than a thrown grenade. That makes them all the more useful for indirect fire, bouncing around corners, shooting through windows and bursting a round off a wall next to an alien otherwise unreachable. This is a role no other weapon can perform well beyond a few grids. RPG accuracy was reduced (it used to be the most accurate weapon in the game, more than sniper rifles), but recently their power and splash radius has been increased quite a bit to compensate.

Blaster is short range. Explain why the aliens have great aim with them across the map. Moving on from that, Shotguns need 2-3 shots at close range to down an alien. Grenade launchers were great at indirect fire in 2.4 and still are in 2.5 if they could kill anything. Also, lower RPG accuracy but larger splash radius? That could blow up in a commander's face(HA).

My biggest problem is that I don't see any reason to use weapons besides Assault and Sniper. 2.4 I ran about 3 Assaults, 2 Snipers, and the others tended to shift around depending on the map. I liked using a Rocket to take out the biggest problem I saw on the field. Now it's all Assault and Snipers. Maybe it's just my line of thinking or playing, but Close is too risky and Explosive too much work. Work meaning not being able to kill, hit, or carry anything.

Also about the weapons, which skill do they use? When looking at the Shotgun it says Close, but when looking in the UFOpedia, the 'requirements' say heavy. And a few weapons seem to keep this odd dual skill thing.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: kurja on May 31, 2013, 10:25:00 pm
Know what else is effective early? Assault rifles just with better range. And no I don't use flamers. It's probably going to be changed to "Close" but currently it's heavy in my version, I think. Maybe. Anyway, range is the game since aliens rarely get close and when they do they tend to kill the person they got near. And unless the lab boys figure out how to make anti-matter rockets for ground troops I'm probably not going to use it.

At shorter range smg's are way better, just sayin'. Faster reaction shots and they also weigh less which can make a big difference. Don't get me wrong I love to use those ar's myself but they're not all there is. In some maps you don't have the range to your advantage and in those spots flamers take out even the heaviest targets when ordinary pre alien incursion tech only-bullets basically just bounce off.

Blaster is short range. Explain why the aliens have great aim with them across the map. Moving on from that, Shotguns need 2-3 shots at close range to down an alien. Grenade launchers were great at indirect fire in 2.4 and still are in 2.5 if they could kill anything. Also, lower RPG accuracy but larger splash radius? That could blow up in a commander's face(HA).

My biggest problem is that I don't see any reason to use weapons besides Assault and Sniper. 2.4 I ran about 3 Assaults, 2 Snipers, and the others tended to shift around depending on the map. I liked using a Rocket to take out the biggest problem I saw on the field. Now it's all Assault and Snipers. Maybe it's just my line of thinking or playing, but Close is too risky and Explosive too much work. Work meaning not being able to kill, hit, or carry anything.

Also about the weapons, which skill do they use? When looking at the Shotgun it says Close, but when looking in the UFOpedia, the 'requirements' say heavy. And a few weapons seem to keep this odd dual skill thing.


idk about the blasters, still sounds like rng to me, I never really liked to use those those myself anyway.

Even though the gl has lost it's 3 round burst mode I still use it a lot, it has great range, and right in early game you can cut off aliens with incendiary rounds, and ofc you can lay indirect fire which is always nice. Carry a sniper rifle and anything else, like, ammo for the rifle and you're already over the lightest encumbrance threshold, capable of one aimed shot per round, with a gl you can shoot twice or shoot and move. Having said all this, I guess it comes down to your personal preference, I use a lot of assault rifles and snipers myself too though.

So far I've heard only rumors, nothing direct from Cdr. Cavarre, about advancing our shotgunners' damage output. As for advanced launcher grenades, antimatter rockets and some other things... look, I'm trying really hard not to post spoilers ;)

afaik nothing actually uses the heavy skill anymore.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Merlin on June 01, 2013, 03:58:50 am
At shorter range smg's are way better, just sayin'. Faster reaction shots and they also weigh less which can make a big difference. Don't get me wrong I love to use those ar's myself but they're not all there is. In some maps you don't have the range to your advantage and in those spots flamers take out even the heaviest targets when ordinary pre alien incursion tech only-bullets basically just bounce off.
Doesn't matter when the hoverbots have enough TUs to move in shoot you three times for death. I like keeping my guys alive so I don't like getting close to aliens unless I know I can kill them on MY turn. Because reaction shots are still wonky. Put my guy on burst fire, he shoots (OMG) but fires one bullet before the alien turns and shoots him dead. When on burst fire. To me it's very unreliable so I use range and speed.

idk about the blasters, still sounds like rng to me, I never really liked to use those those myself anyway.
Biggest problem is that a close range weapon can be fired at distance with average results.

Even though the gl has lost it's 3 round burst mode I still use it a lot, it has great range, and right in early game you can cut off aliens with incendiary rounds, and ofc you can lay indirect fire which is always nice. Carry a sniper rifle and anything else, like, ammo for the rifle and you're already over the lightest encumbrance threshold, capable of one aimed shot per round, with a gl you can shoot twice or shoot and move. Having said all this, I guess it comes down to your personal preference, I use a lot of assault rifles and snipers myself too though.
It's insanely heavy limiting ammo and support items possibly even armor. Sure my sniper can only walk a bit and shoot but he has the advantage of being far away or putting down his target. It is preference but to me it's not just preference it's what I feel like I HAVE to use.

So far I've heard only rumors, nothing direct from Cdr. Cavarre, about advancing our shotgunners' damage output. As for advanced launcher grenades, antimatter rockets and some other things... look, I'm trying really hard not to post spoilers ;)
Which falls back into the research problems I'm having in the fact of no research. I just got armor, in June. JUNE! At this rate I'll have to raid an alien base with tier 2 armor and plasma weapons.

afaik nothing actually uses the heavy skill anymore.
Odd mine still lists the skill used on the Flamer and Machine Gun.

Again I'm not saying it's bad, just I liked 2.4 more at this rate.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: kurja on June 01, 2013, 07:35:52 am
I like keeping my guys alive so I don't like getting close to aliens

My point was that in some maps you might not have the luxury of choosing at what distance the battle will be fought. Ofc there are ways to enforce a distance but that's tactics for you, you like long range so you go for that, but it's not always possible. How do you purge a landed ufo of aliens using only long range combat?

afaik hovering robotic aliens aren't early game opponents?

Odd mine still lists the skill used on the Flamer and Machine Gun.

Some texts still have "heavy" in them but game mechanics-wise nothing should actually use that skill anymore.

Again I'm not saying it's bad, just I liked 2.4 more at this rate.

okay. it's still "wip" though =)
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: ShipIt on June 01, 2013, 08:50:39 am
Also about the weapons, which skill do they use? When looking at the Shotgun it says Close, but when looking in the UFOpedia, the 'requirements' say heavy. And a few weapons seem to keep this odd dual skill thing.

If you are playing a recent version and see stuff like that, please report it in our issue tracker (http://ufoai.org/bugs/ufoalieninvasion). Remember, all this is still WIP.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: H-Hour on June 01, 2013, 12:02:26 pm
Merlin, it looks like the shotgun (and probably other weapons) still show "heavy" dependencies in the ufopaedia, but this is inaccurate. The skill that the game uses will always be the one that appears when you're looking at the weapon/ammo in the equipment menu. I've made a note (http://ufoai.org/bugs/ufoalieninvasion/issues/4851) to remove these ufopaedia errors when I remove the heavy skill from the UI. Please let us know if you find any other places that heavy still appears.

Regarding shotguns (I include the plasma blaster in this category). It sounds to me like you haven't quite mastered reaction fire and, for that reason, have focused your tactics on long-range encounters, using assault rifles when you have to close range. This is not a bad strategy and maintaining range is often smart when its possible. But on quite a few maps this is just not possible, and shotguns have a few advantages over assault rifles in close quarters match-ups. The attached image describes a situation where a shotgun is much better. Note: If you're taking 2-3 shots to down an alien with a shotgun, you must be using flechettes and only hitting with a few flechettes each shot. I'd recommend saboted slugs over flechette shells for killing power.

Regarding grenade launchers. I really don't know what to say on this but to respectfully disagree. These guys are the biggest killers for me at every stage of the game. Nothing can match their ability to kill at short, medium and medium-long range. Sure, I have to minimize extra equipment for low-strength rookies, but it's a small trade-off to make. The reason I only take two (8 man team) or 4 (12 man team) is because they are purely offensive.

Doesn't matter when the hoverbots have enough TUs to move in shoot you three times for death. I like keeping my guys alive so I don't like getting close to aliens unless I know I can kill them on MY turn. Because reaction shots are still wonky. Put my guy on burst fire, he shoots (OMG) but fires one bullet before the alien turns and shoots him dead. When on burst fire. To me it's very unreliable so I use range and speed.
There's no partial reaction fire (ie - shooting only one shot of a burst mode). It sounds like it was set to snap not burst. Easy mistake to make, even when you're sure you got it set up right. I know every time I thought RF "didn't work properly", when I made a thorough investigation, I found I had set up the wrong firemode, or had it turned off, or my soldier was wounded causing the firemode TU cost to be higher, or the alien moved out of view.

On a separate note: players have different styles and tactical preferences, and this is not a bad thing. I just wish people wouldn't jump to the conclusion that something is "useless" just because it doesn't fit their profile. I, for instance, made heavy use of a fast sniper, who racked up the highest kill count while being protected by smoke. But ShipIt hardly used snipers. Some people consider assault specialists the primary offensive units -- but for me they were more defensive generalists, exposing themselves in dangerous forward positions to protect other soldiers and using their RF to soften distant aliens during their turn. I see this difference as part of the benefit of having diverse weaponry.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Visitor on June 01, 2013, 12:09:05 pm
It sounds like it was set to snap not burst. Easy mistake to make, even when you're sure you got it set up right.
Just for the sake of having it confirmed and sure - isn't it possible to have 'partial' RF if amount of ammo/energy required for shots is lower than what would be used with full magazine/battery (correct me if I am wrong)? If so, that may give impression of not fully activated RF while in reality it's logical effect of shortage of whatever weapon shoots with.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: H-Hour on June 01, 2013, 03:11:28 pm
Just for the sake of having it confirmed and sure - isn't it possible to have 'partial' RF if amount of ammo/energy required for shots is lower than what would be used with full magazine/battery (correct me if I am wrong)? If so, that may give impression of not fully activated RF while in reality it's logical effect of shortage of whatever weapon shoots with.
Hmm, that's a good point. I'm actually not sure what would happen. I believe during the player's turn you can't fire a burst shot if you don't have 3 ammo left. But if the RF was set to burst before the player ran so low on ammo, maybe it doesn't check. Would be interesting if get a chance to confirm this.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: homunculus on June 01, 2013, 10:59:12 pm
I remember having fired bursts with less ammo than needed to fire all shots, and it just fires less shots.
Someone might confirm it again, if there need to be absolutely certain.

(excellent thread title, by the way, very relaxing ;D)
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: UFOhunter on June 02, 2013, 12:13:53 pm
I remember having fired bursts with less ammo than needed to fire all shots, and it just fires less shots.
Someone might confirm it again, if there need to be absolutely certain.

Same for me.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Merlin on June 03, 2013, 09:47:29 am
Regarding shotguns (I include the plasma blaster in this category). It sounds to me like you haven't quite mastered reaction fire and, for that reason, have focused your tactics on long-range encounters, using assault rifles when you have to close range. This is not a bad strategy and maintaining range is often smart when its possible. But on quite a few maps this is just not possible, and shotguns have a few advantages over assault rifles in close quarters match-ups. The attached image describes a situation where a shotgun is much better. Note: If you're taking 2-3 shots to down an alien with a shotgun, you must be using flechettes and only hitting with a few flechettes each shot. I'd recommend saboted slugs over flechette shells for killing power.

I haven't 'mastered' reaction fire because reaction fire is as fiddly as a fiddler on a roof of a fiddling school. Made of Fiddles. The image makes no sense to me. Why does it matter that the alien ended up using just 2 more TUs to move when, as long as he moves into the soldier's field of vision and range, he should be fired on? See this is why I don't reaction fire or when I do, it's "okay everyone take 2 steps. That's all the TUs we can spare because everyone is on reaction fire and it takes all TUs to do it. Alien's turn." Really Reaction fire has been a problem for me since I first started on this game. Also I just use whatever the shotguns I start with come with which tends to be saboted slugs. 2-3 Shots for the Tamen, Hoverbots is a deathwish and anything else it's throw the thing away.

Regarding grenade launchers. I really don't know what to say on this but to respectfully disagree. These guys are the biggest killers for me at every stage of the game. Nothing can match their ability to kill at short, medium and medium-long range. Sure, I have to minimize extra equipment for low-strength rookies, but it's a small trade-off to make. The reason I only take two (8 man team) or 4 (12 man team) is because they are purely offensive.

Maybe with plasma grenades they can kill but the normal shot doesn't seem to do much damage at all. Note that when I use it, I try to use it to yes shoot around corners and walls to get to targets. And unless you hit the target, the damage seems quite pathetic. If you and others can make it work, that's great for you guys. I don't see how but hey, this is a game that can be played a number of ways.

On a separate note: players have different styles and tactical preferences, and this is not a bad thing. I just wish people wouldn't jump to the conclusion that something is "useless" just because it doesn't fit their profile. I, for instance, made heavy use of a fast sniper, who racked up the highest kill count while being protected by smoke. But ShipIt hardly used snipers. Some people consider assault specialists the primary offensive units -- but for me they were more defensive generalists, exposing themselves in dangerous forward positions to protect other soldiers and using their RF to soften distant aliens during their turn. I see this difference as part of the benefit of having diverse weaponry.

I understand that it's personal style and preferences. There's no way to make a game like this where everyone does the same thing, and if they do you're doing it wrong. I just see no reason to use the half the weapons in the game as they put my soldiers at more risk then I want them to be in. Close is a death wish, Heavy will be gone/is gone, and Explosive is only useful for grenades on my Riflemen. That's how I see the game thanks to fiddly reaction fire from my side, insane TUs from the enemy, and changes that I see weaken a play style I had grown to like from 2.4. 

Again I'm not saying the game is bad, and understand that it's still WIP. But this version seems to take everything I learned and got into a habit of doing from 2.4, and flipped it around. I don't know what's what anymore.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: H-Hour on June 03, 2013, 10:22:13 am
I haven't 'mastered' reaction fire because reaction fire is as fiddly as a fiddler on a roof of a fiddling school. Made of Fiddles. The image makes no sense to me. Why does it matter that the alien ended up using just 2 more TUs to move when, as long as he moves into the soldier's field of vision and range, he should be fired on?

Ahh, ok. You don't realize how reaction fire works. If your build is after May 7, you should have an entry in the ufopaedia, under Basic Concepts (Ground Combat), which explains reaction fire. It is not a free shot on the enemy as soon as they appear. It's a first-to-the-draw race using TUs. Here's the text we've added to the game that explains it.

Quote
Units can fire on enemy units when they wander into their field of view during the enemy's turn. Soldiers will execute a reaction shot when an enemy unit spends more Time Units (TU) in their field of view than the cost of their reaction fire.

This means that a unit which has been set to execute a reaction shot that costs 8 TU will take the shot after the enemy spends 9 or more TU within their field of view. But be careful -- aliens can take reaction shots just like PHALANX soldiers.

Soldiers firing weapons with low TU costs will execute more reaction shots -- and receive less reaction fire from the enemy -- than soldiers who fire weapons which cost more TUs.

Addenda

A soldier will not perform reaction fire unless they have saved enough Time Units in the last turn and reaction fire has been enabled in the soldier's control panel. Commanders can choose the firemode the soldier should use with reaction fire in the firemode selection window.

If an enemy unit wanders out of a unit's view -- even for a moment -- the reaction fire counter will be reset. A unit must spend enough TUs consecutively in view of a unit to receive reaction fire.

This is why, in the picture example I provided, the difference between an 8 TU and a 12 TU reaction firemode matters so much. Ideally, we'll some day have some in-battle feedback on RF that makes it clearer what is happening. But for now this is all we've got.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: kurja on June 03, 2013, 10:32:23 am
How are you loading your soldiers? If you find yourself short of TU's have you tried going light to get those bonus time units? I usually have my "assault team" without armor and using light weapons, like shotguns, lasers or rifles, wielding forty-plus TU's they basically sprint from cover to cover spotting enemies for snipers and grenadiers to kill and when they don't have a shot I'll use smoke and shoot them close up in the back :) At the end of my turn I arrange them defensively for reaction fire. Reaction fire mechanics are now really simple actually, actions that take less TU's happen first and a target needs to be seen for as many TU's as a reaction shot needs. which is where those shotguns are handy.

You didn't comment on my question of purging ufo's or small buildings, what's your strategy for that if you don't carry any short range weapons?
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: ovvldc on June 03, 2013, 06:30:52 pm
Which reminds me, do the aliens still have God vision, as in that they know where XCOM crew are even if they cannot see them? That was a problem in 2.3 from a tactical perspective - you could never sneak up on an alien.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: H-Hour on June 03, 2013, 07:24:14 pm
Which reminds me, do the aliens still have God vision, as in that they know where XCOM crew are even if they cannot see them? That was a problem in 2.3 from a tactical perspective - you could never sneak up on an alien.
Yes, there is not really any stealth in single player.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: DarkRain on June 03, 2013, 07:26:46 pm
@Merlin: Which is your build's date? I have this feeling you are using an old one for some reason.

@ovvldc: Technically what they know is if they'll be closer (straight line distance) to one a enemy unit if they move to any given position and if they'll have LoS from there. That makes them both, basically impossible to sneak on, and completely unable to navigate a semi-complex map to save their lives.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Merlin on June 03, 2013, 09:05:15 pm
Ahh, ok. You don't realize how reaction fire works. If your build is after May 7, you should have an entry in the ufopaedia, under Basic Concepts (Ground Combat), which explains reaction fire. It is not a free shot on the enemy as soon as they appear. It's a first-to-the-draw race using TUs. Here's the text we've added to the game that explains it.

This is why, in the picture example I provided, the difference between an 8 TU and a 12 TU reaction firemode matters so much. Ideally, we'll some day have some in-battle feedback on RF that makes it clearer what is happening. But for now this is all we've got.

You know, after I walked away the word "Threshold" stayed with me and I think I figured that out after walking away. But if that's the case, it still makes no sense and is in my mind rather silly compared to the other two games that I can compare it to, X-Coms and the remake XCOM(yeah this is gonna get confusing).

It takes 16 TUs to reaction fire with snap shot. That means an alien can walk, shoot, and leave before he spends 16 TUs if he's moving around a corner. Heck this explains why my snipers never react. An Alien would have to be dancing in front of them the entire turn before the sniper figures out "Hey I should shoot this guy".

I also find it silly because the two XCOM games(The first and the remake) just had you set it up and they would fire on the first guy that walked into sight. When I go on reaction fire I want to spend my unit's turn to overwatch and shoot the guy that turns the corner. But the system here wants me to worry about "okay how long will the Alien be in my line of sight before I die"? No, to me that's a bad idea! I'm giving up my turn to shoot Aliens during their turn! I shouldn't have to worry about how many TUs they decide to burn.

How are you loading your soldiers? If you find yourself short of TU's have you tried going light to get those bonus time units? I usually have my "assault team" without armor and using light weapons, like shotguns, lasers or rifles, wielding forty-plus TU's they basically sprint from cover to cover spotting enemies for snipers and grenadiers to kill and when they don't have a shot I'll use smoke and shoot them close up in the back :) At the end of my turn I arrange them defensively for reaction fire. Reaction fire mechanics are now really simple actually, actions that take less TU's happen first and a target needs to be seen for as many TU's as a reaction shot needs. which is where those shotguns are handy.

You didn't comment on my question of purging ufo's or small buildings, what's your strategy for that if you don't carry any short range weapons?

For gear I tend to have; Primary, Armor, 2 Reloads, Medikit. From there it's extras like grenades or side weapons. I never try to go without armor though at where I am in the game, might as well. Everything one shots my guys it seems. I've had soldiers that could only carry their explosive weapon and armor, that's it. Reaction Fire to me is still fiddly. "Mr. Alien could you stand right there for a minute while I get my sights right to shoot you?" Sure it might be more real, soldier taking time to actually aim, but when I go on reaction fire I want to oh, React, when I see an alien the moment they step in view.

As for Purging UFOs and Small Buildings, combo of grenades and time. Aliens are still stupid and are prone to leaving their hidey holes after enough time. If they don't well; Flash bang around the corner, Grenades and Incendiary at spots where I think the aliens are and smoke right on top my guys. Because Aliens can just walk through past my guy and shoot him in the back if I try to reaction fire.

@Merlin: Which is your build's date? I have this feeling you are using an old one for some reason.

May 25th 2013. I'm not playing a very old one.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: ShipIt on June 03, 2013, 09:31:49 pm
...
It takes 16 8 TUs to reaction fire with snap shot.
...
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: H-Hour on June 03, 2013, 10:20:13 pm
I'm giving up my turn to shoot Aliens during their turn! I shouldn't have to worry about how many TUs they decide to burn.
I'm against this method because it inherently preferences defensive over offensive tactics. If I can be sure that my unit on RF will fire on an enemy the moment it appears, then it is always in my interest to encounter the enemy during the enemy's turn. The enemy will be lower on TU because they will have moved into view and they will probably be closer because they've had to move into my carefully limited field of view. This defensive advantage would be exacerbated by our poor alien AI, which can't really play defensively in this way, doesn't understand indirect fire and loves to rush the closest target.

It would be inherently unbalanced in multiplayer, too.

Heck this explains why my snipers never react. An Alien would have to be dancing in front of them the entire turn before the sniper figures out "Hey I should shoot this guy".
You must keep in mind that a firemode takes into account a series of actions, not just the firing of the weapon as soon as something is spotted. It also entails the time it takes to raise the weapon and sight in the target. If a soldier could just as easily and quickly do this with a sniper rifle as they could with an assault rifle, all soldiers would take them in real life. But scopes reduce situational awareness (hence the range of low-magnification scopes typically used on assault rifles), and sniper rifles are bigger, heavier and take more time to aim unless a sniper has already dialed into the keyhole (something which is not really appropriate for the scale or pace of our battlefields).

Snipers are not reaction fire specialists and shouldn't really be used in that capacity (except on very long range maps from defensive positions). Probably the biggest misconception is that Reaction Fire is Overwatch -- but in UFO:AI we don't yet have any mechanism to properly handle overwatch, in which a soldier prepares himself to fire rapidly on a specific target area. I'd like to see something like this implemented some day, with the ability to spend TUs to increase fire rate and/or accuracy in a small target area in exchange for losing some wider field of view. But it's not here yet.

I also find it silly because the two XCOM games(The first and the remake) just had you set it up and they would fire on the first guy that walked into sight.
Whoa, whoa, whoa! I haven't played the new one, but the old one was definitely not that simple (https://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php?title=Reaction_fire_formula), especially early on (hence the need for reactions training (https://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php?title=Reaction_Training)). The original had a reaction fire stat and, before it was adequately trained, your soldiers almost never took their shots first. The high reaction fire stat of the aliens was also the source of the enter-room-die-immediately frustration that was endemic to clearing UFOs.

Reaction Fire is not properly communicated through the UI, which is a real problem I don't want to pretend doesn't exist. But the system is actually not that complicated when you figure it out, and it does reinforce something that I think is a vital part of the 2.5 weapons balance revamp: the most important tactics are squad-based, not soldier-based. You need to use your soldiers in supportive roles to cover for each other's weaknesses. No matter how good a soldier you have, they will be defenseless in some situations. This is a significant improvement over 2.4, where you basically equipped your guys with the best weapons you could and sent them into a shootout with the aliens. It's often the people who were most used to this old style of play who have had the hardest time adjusting to the new style. But in spite of the title of this thread (which will, apparently, never die), I am convinced that the ground combat in 2.5 is more tactically interesting, more intellectually challenging and, therefore, more fun, than 2.4.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Merlin on June 04, 2013, 02:59:36 am


8 TUs to prepare + 8 to snap shot = 16 TUs. Aliens must pass a 'threshold' before being shot. I used 16 TUs so they must use 16 TUs before I shoot.

I'm against this method because it inherently preferences defensive over offensive tactics. If I can be sure that my unit on RF will fire on an enemy the moment it appears, then it is always in my interest to encounter the enemy during the enemy's turn. The enemy will be lower on TU because they will have moved into view and they will probably be closer because they've had to move into my carefully limited field of view. This defensive advantage would be exacerbated by our poor alien AI, which can't really play defensively in this way, doesn't understand indirect fire and loves to rush the closest target.

It would be inherently unbalanced in multiplayer, too.

So rather than making it work that way for fear of making game play too defensive, you make players play defensive anyway because they can't rely on Reaction Fire? Also, don't care for balance in multiplayer myself so can't say how it would affect it.

You must keep in mind that a firemode takes into account a series of actions, not just the firing of the weapon as soon as something is spotted. It also entails the time it takes to raise the weapon and sight in the target. If a soldier could just as easily and quickly do this with a sniper rifle as they could with an assault rifle, all soldiers would take them in real life. But scopes reduce situational awareness (hence the range of low-magnification scopes typically used on assault rifles), and sniper rifles are bigger, heavier and take more time to aim unless a sniper has already dialed into the keyhole (something which is not really appropriate for the scale or pace of our battlefields).

Snipers are not reaction fire specialists and shouldn't really be used in that capacity (except on very long range maps from defensive positions). Probably the biggest misconception is that Reaction Fire is Overwatch -- but in UFO:AI we don't yet have any mechanism to properly handle overwatch, in which a soldier prepares himself to fire rapidly on a specific target area. I'd like to see something like this implemented some day, with the ability to spend TUs to increase fire rate and/or accuracy in a small target area in exchange for losing some wider field of view. But it's not here yet.

I used snipers as an example since they have some of the largest pools of TUs needed to reaction fire. An alien would need to sit there dancing before they fired. Worst case alien come around the corner and shoots him from across an open field killing him before the sniper goes "oh look ET, better shoot him". Also, given that aliens are invading with plasma weapons, anti matter engines and a plan to conquer the human race, I thought we gave up on 'realism' when it came to the specific actions a soldier must do to shoot.

Whoa, whoa, whoa! I haven't played the new one, but the old one was definitely not that simple (https://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php?title=Reaction_fire_formula), especially early on (hence the need for reactions training (https://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php?title=Reaction_Training)). The original had a reaction fire stat and, before it was adequately trained, your soldiers almost never took their shots first. The high reaction fire stat of the aliens was also the source of the enter-room-die-immediately frustration that was endemic to clearing UFOs.

Reaction Fire is not properly communicated through the UI, which is a real problem I don't want to pretend doesn't exist. But the system is actually not that complicated when you figure it out, and it does reinforce something that I think is a vital part of the 2.5 weapons balance revamp: the most important tactics are squad-based, not soldier-based. You need to use your soldiers in supportive roles to cover for each other's weaknesses. No matter how good a soldier you have, they will be defenseless in some situations. This is a significant improvement over 2.4, where you basically equipped your guys with the best weapons you could and sent them into a shootout with the aliens. It's often the people who were most used to this old style of play who have had the hardest time adjusting to the new style. But in spite of the title of this thread (which will, apparently, never die), I am convinced that the ground combat in 2.5 is more tactically interesting, more intellectually challenging and, therefore, more fun, than 2.4.

My soldiers from the first XCOM game tended to shoot. They don't here. Maybe it was the bonkers pathfinding that made them dance for the soldier to shoot. Or maybe it's because I grouped soldiers that started with high reaction as cover soldiers. Point is, it worked more for me in that game than it does here. Also Aliens still do the enter-room-die-immediately in this game, more so because I've seen Hoverbots move, shoot 3 times, and still reaction fire.

To me there is no reason to rely on something that will not work most the time. Why sit there and pray the enemy will give you enough time to shoot when you can take cover or throw a grenade or do something that doesn't equal into putting your head between your legs and kissing your hide good by. No reason to use half the weapons, no reason to try to be defensive other than smokes, and when hoverbots show up en-mass say good bye to your soldiers. 2.5 combat is more luck, more confusing, and outright far more frustrating. God help the players if you guys ever put in Chryssalid like enemies. But I doubt nor would want the game changed just for me. Just putting forth my problems and concerns.

Also, doesn't the forum let those that control it change the name of topics?
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: ShipIt on June 04, 2013, 06:27:13 am
8 TUs to prepare + 8 to snap shot = 16 TUs. Aliens must pass a 'threshold' before being shot. I used 16 TUs so they must use 16 TUs before I shoot.

How do you spend eight TUs to "prepare" for RF? It´s simply enabling it and your soldier will use RF if he gets a chance, as often as he has enough TUs and ammo left to fire. So, if you enable RF while your soldier has eight TUs left, he is able to shot once (if the correct firemode is set in the firemode menu), if he has 16 TUs left he can shoot twice during the aliens turn.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: homunculus on June 04, 2013, 08:46:58 am
Assuming that reaction fire is not supposed to be the primary means of killing aliens, but an emergency measure to try to save your poorly placed soldiers, I see nothing wrong with the reaction fire as long as it works according to this spec.
If X-COM reaction fire didn't work like that, then I think UFO:AI reaction fire is better.

The only thing that I would debate (your opinion may differ, of course) is that the shots should be fired half-way through the time units needed for the shot. This is because after pulling the trigger and firing the shot there should be some time for recovery.

Along the same lines (of firing half-way), it is possible to do something that has a similar effect to sneaking up to an alien.
It is estimating where the alien has moved far enough not to have time units to shoot when it has line of sight to your soldier.
Then next turn you walk around the alien (to the alien's side or behind) and kill it with a knife.
If the shot was fired half-way through the time units, it would be more difficult to walk around the alien.
Killing aliens with a knife is a bit fun, though.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Merlin on June 04, 2013, 09:18:51 am
How do you spend eight TUs to "prepare" for RF? It´s simply enabling it and your soldier will use RF if he gets a chance, as often as he has enough TUs and ammo left to fire. So, if you enable RF while your soldier has eight TUs left, he is able to shot once (if the correct firemode is set in the firemode menu), if he has 16 TUs left he can shoot twice during the aliens turn.

Okay here's how i try to set up RF. I select a soldier and click to 'prepare' RF mode which takes 8 TUs. Then I have to select a 'Fire' mode for my weapon. So I select the Gun icon right next to the Reaction Fire Icon. A menu comes up asking what fire mode would I like to save for. I select Snap Shot, which costs 8 TUs. 8 + 8 = 16. Took me 8 TUs to go into RF mode, and another 8 for the lowest firing mode. 16 TUs to snap shot during the enemy turn. Alien has to dance for 16 TUs before my men shoot.

Assuming that reaction fire is not supposed to be the primary means of killing aliens, but an emergency measure to try to save your poorly placed soldiers, I see nothing wrong with the reaction fire as long as it works according to this spec.
If X-COM reaction fire didn't work like that, then I think UFO:AI reaction fire is better.

Smoke does the same thing and is far less random/guess work/praying.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: H-Hour on June 04, 2013, 10:46:00 am
Okay here's how i try to set up RF. I select a soldier and click to 'prepare' RF mode which takes 8 TUs. Then I have to select a 'Fire' mode for my weapon. So I select the Gun icon right next to the Reaction Fire Icon. A menu comes up asking what fire mode would I like to save for. I select Snap Shot, which costs 8 TUs. 8 + 8 = 16. Took me 8 TUs to go into RF mode, and another 8 for the lowest firing mode. 16 TUs to snap shot during the enemy turn. Alien has to dance for 16 TUs before my men shoot.
No, you're misunderstanding this. RF is simply enabled or disabled, and doing so doesn't use any TUs. When you select a RF firemode, you're not spending those TUs, but telling the game which firemode to use. The firemode TUs are reserved this turn, which prevents you from accidentally spending them doing other actions, but the TUs are only spent during the enemy's turn when reaction fire is taken.

The threshold -- the amount of TUs an alien must spend in view of your soldier before that soldier will take reaction fire -- is equivalent only to the cost of the reaction firemode. So, if you have set reaction fire to a snap shot that costs 8 TU, the threshold is 8, not 16.

With this in mind, go back and look at the image I attached earlier in the thread. It should make more sense now.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: ShipIt on June 04, 2013, 11:19:00 am
.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: kurja on June 04, 2013, 03:55:19 pm
perhaps you can now see why some like to have those smg's and shotguns combined with tu's spared for rf?
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Merlin on June 04, 2013, 08:28:49 pm
No, you're misunderstanding this. RF is simply enabled or disabled, and doing so doesn't use any TUs. When you select a RF firemode, you're not spending those TUs, but telling the game which firemode to use. The firemode TUs are reserved this turn, which prevents you from accidentally spending them doing other actions, but the TUs are only spent during the enemy's turn when reaction fire is taken.

The threshold -- the amount of TUs an alien must spend in view of your soldier before that soldier will take reaction fire -- is equivalent only to the cost of the reaction firemode. So, if you have set reaction fire to a snap shot that costs 8 TU, the threshold is 8, not 16.

With this in mind, go back and look at the image I attached earlier in the thread. It should make more sense now.

Semantics. Sure I didn't spend the TUs during my turn but unless I turn off RF, I can't use those either. Hence the word cost. It Costs the soldier that much TUs to use RF rather than say move, change gear, heal, etc.

.

Now see that explains it far better.

perhaps you can now see why some like to have those smg's and shotguns combined with tu's spared for rf?
Only if it kills something which in my practice of firing at the alien at close range on my turn, I end up needing another shot. So hoping for the Alien to not kill me on their turn so I can shoot back isn't viable to me.

Reaction fire is still clunky to use and hopefully more to the point, this shows just how confusing it is to some people. Sorry I'll take my chances for a kill on my own turn thank you. Even if the aliens get enough TUs to do everything and still RF.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: H-Hour on June 04, 2013, 08:57:14 pm
Sorry I'll take my chances for a kill on my own turn thank you.
So, now we've learned that you didn't understand how reaction fire works when you became frustrated with it. And we've gone through quite a lot to explain to you how it does work. And you're not even going to try it out?!
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Visitor on June 04, 2013, 10:08:51 pm
Don't worry, we do appreciate your effort, H-Hour. But if guy doesn't like how the whole RF works, then even the best explanation, with the best intent in mind won't help. I do understand his disappointment somewhat - you basically freeze action of your trooper, on the off-chance he will perform it during enemy's turn, after said enemy will get into line of sight and spend some TUs and even then it may be that enemy will fire first making the whole setup more useless than rushing in possibly could be or RF won't kill the alien and phalanx boys will get a mouthful of hot, hot plasma anyway.

Funnily enough - I find some things needing adjusting when aliens travel great distances or shoot with uncanny accuracy and I do find them when there are issues with balance like this one (http://ufoai.org/forum/index.php/topic,7745.msg59488.html#msg59488).. but I cannot recall me being really annoyed by RF, despite informations of it being (at least uspposedly) overpowered for aliens/of little value for Phalanx.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: kurja on June 04, 2013, 11:41:57 pm
Semantics. Sure I didn't spend the TUs during my turn but unless I turn off RF, I can't use those either. Hence the word cost. It Costs the soldier that much TUs to use RF rather than say move, change gear, heal, etc.

No!! Not a matter of semantics. An 8TU snapshot as reaction fire costs 8TU, not 16, no matter how you turn it. If you have 40TU, spend 32 walking and shooting so you have eight left, you can activate RF and the 8TU shot will then happen on the alien turn (if conditions are met). 8, not 16!

As it is, reaction fire sure isn't suitable for sniper overwatch or similar as you've noted but it still has it's uses. I use it extensively.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: H-Hour on June 05, 2013, 12:15:07 am
I do understand his disappointment somewhat - you basically freeze action of your trooper, on the off-chance he will perform it during enemy's turn, after said enemy will get into line of sight and spend some TUs and even then it may be that enemy will fire first making the whole setup more useless than rushing in possibly could be or RF won't kill the alien and phalanx boys will get a mouthful of hot, hot plasma anyway.
RF is much more than just a shoot now or later choice. If you can shoot at an alien safely and move into a safe position during your turn, you should almost always do it. Reaction Fire is for all the other times when you can't quite kill an alien and need an alternative solution.

Consider a situation where you have an alien at mid-range spotted by two soldiers with laser rifles. You estimate that a burst shot has a good chance of hitting with one round at this range and two hits are enough to bring down this alien. However, one of your soldiers already used many of his TUs. If he fires a burst shot at the alien, he won't have enough TUs to move into a safe position, so any other alien can walk into the open area and fire at him.

Instead of taking the chance and hoping to get lucky, you can move your soldiers behind a nearby building and put one crouched in front of the other. Now they only have enough for a snap shot, but at this range they're almost certain to hit. The alien is almost certainly going to come around the corner and fire at one of your soldiers, so with their 8 TU snap shot they'll get their shots off first. Now you've traded one likely kill for an even more likely kill, and added on the bonus that your soldiers will be in a safer position.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Merlin on June 05, 2013, 04:34:56 am
No!! Not a matter of semantics. An 8TU snapshot as reaction fire costs 8TU, not 16, no matter how you turn it. If you have 40TU, spend 32 walking and shooting so you have eight left, you can activate RF and the 8TU shot will then happen on the alien turn (if conditions are met). 8, not 16!

As it is, reaction fire sure isn't suitable for sniper overwatch or similar as you've noted but it still has it's uses. I use it extensively.
Yes. It is a matter of semantics. I get that it doesn't take 16 TUs to go into RF mode, thanks to Shipit explaining it to me. It only costs/takes/save/needs/youcan'tusetheseTUsifyouwanttodothis 8 TUs. But regardless of the number it still costs/takes/save/needs/youcan'tusetheseTUsifyouwanttodothis. You're saying it doesn't take 8 points to use because they are still there, I'm saying it does techincally take 8 points(because again Ship explained it with the pic and I get it now), because while I don't lose those 8 points, I still can't use those 8 points in my turn if I want to use RF.

The points are lost but I can't use them if I want to RF. So it has a cost, a refundable cost if you want to do something using those points instead of using RF, but a cost none the less. And again, I used the Sniper example for hyperbole. Lemme try this again. I use 8 RF on a shotgun to watch the door. The alien walks in a way to not let me see it for 8 TUs and shoots my guy in the side killing him. A sniper watches an area, and never shoots anything because the TUs are too high for him to cover. A shotgunner has to get lucky that the alien is brain dead.

So, now we've learned that you didn't understand how reaction fire works when you became frustrated with it. And we've gone through quite a lot to explain to you how it does work. And you're not even going to try it out?!

I still don't see how it works. No wait, I see how it works mechanically, not practice. The only time RF will work is if the alien is in vision enough. And there's very few times where you can grantee that the alien will spend the TUs to be allowed to get shot. Here lemme see...

RF is much more than just a shoot now or later choice. If you can shoot at an alien safely and move into a safe position during your turn, you should almost always do it. Reaction Fire is for all the other times when you can't quite kill an alien and need an alternative solution.

Consider a situation where you have an alien at mid-range spotted by two soldiers with laser rifles. You estimate that a burst shot has a good chance of hitting with one round at this range and two hits are enough to bring down this alien. However, one of your soldiers already used many of his TUs. If he fires a burst shot at the alien, he won't have enough TUs to move into a safe position, so any other alien can walk into the open area and fire at him.

Instead of taking the chance and hoping to get lucky, you can move your soldiers behind a nearby building and put one crouched in front of the other. Now they only have enough for a snap shot, but at this range they're almost certain to hit. The alien is almost certainly going to come around the corner and fire at one of your soldiers, so with their 8 TU snap shot they'll get their shots off first. Now you've traded one likely kill for an even more likely kill, and added on the bonus that your soldiers will be in a safer position.

Ah ha. Depending on how the alien moves, your two soldiers won't get a shot off. He can spend enough to get killed, move enough so only one can fire, or moves the side of the second guy(the standing one) with TUs to spend. Aliens have weird movement patterns and it makes little sense covering alien UFO doors in places as they can walk to your side and kill you that way. I said the AI is kinda dim yes, but this is an XCOM style game. The AI always has weird movement patterns.

Which brings me back to, why take a chance on RF when Smoke saves my bacon more often. The reason I wanted RF explained to me was to see if I was doing it wrong, to see if I can shoot them when I see them. I was wrong in both. I wanted RF to be 'prepare to shoot' rather than 'prepare to react to shoot'. So thanks for putting up with me and thanks for explaining how it works, even if the answer wasn't what I was expecting.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: kurja on June 05, 2013, 11:32:53 am
Yes. It is a matter of semantics. I get that it doesn't take 16 TUs to go into RF mode, thanks to Shipit explaining it to me. It only costs/takes/save/needs/youcan'tusetheseTUsifyouwanttodothis 8 TUs. But regardless of the number it still costs/takes/save/needs/youcan'tusetheseTUsifyouwanttodothis. You're saying it doesn't take 8 points to use because they are still there, I'm saying it does techincally take 8 points(because again Ship explained it with the pic and I get it now), because while I don't lose those 8 points, I still can't use those 8 points in my turn if I want to use RF.
OK, activating RF does take away from what you can do in your own turn. Good that you now understand the actual TU cost (8 instead of 16). But what would be the alternative? Have RF cost nothing?
The points are lost but I can't use them if I want to RF. So it has a cost, a refundable cost if you want to do something using those points instead of using RF, but a cost none the less. And again, I used the Sniper example for hyperbole. Lemme try this again. I use 8 RF on a shotgun to watch the door. The alien walks in a way to not let me see it for 8 TUs and shoots my guy in the side killing him. A sniper watches an area, and never shoots anything because the TUs are too high for him to cover. A shotgunner has to get lucky that the alien is brain dead.
And if your options are going through the door with 8TUs, finding yourself facing an alien with 0 TU left? You'd rather do that than instead wait for next turn by the doorway with RF activated?
Which brings me back to, why take a chance on RF when Smoke saves my bacon more often. The reason I wanted RF explained to me was to see if I was doing it wrong, to see if I can shoot them when I see them. I was wrong in both. I wanted RF to be 'prepare to shoot' rather than 'prepare to react to shoot'. So thanks for putting up with me and thanks for explaining how it works, even if the answer wasn't what I was expecting.
OK. If it sucks so bad you're probably better off not using it then.

imho some sort of overwatch mode of rf would be sweet, like pre-targeting a square for quick rf if an enemy walks there, but afaik such a feature is not planned (can a dev confirm this please?)
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: H-Hour on June 05, 2013, 11:39:35 am
Ah ha. Depending on how the alien moves, your two soldiers won't get a shot off. He can spend enough to get killed, move enough so only one can fire, or moves the side of the second guy(the standing one) with TUs to spend. Aliens have weird movement patterns and it makes little sense covering alien UFO doors in places as they can walk to your side and kill you that way..

The situation where an alien walks around a corner then past your units (and thus out of view) is a fairly simple tactical problem that you would be able to solve if you weren't trying to find a reason to think RF is useless. The solution is to position your soldiers not right on the corner, but at least 4 grid spaces from the corner. This way, the alien will not be able to get past you without spending at least 8 TU. See attached image. Note: the aliens know this, and you'll see different behaviour when you position your soldiers this way.

I'm not sure what you mean by "move enough so only one can fire". If you meant walking out of view, then disregard this. But if you meant that an alien can spend just enough TUs for only one soldier to fire -- that's not possible if they both have the same 8 TU firemode for reaction fire. As soon as the alien goes over the 8 TU threshold, all soldiers who have an 8 TU firemode on reaction fire will fire (assuming they maintained view).

imho some sort of overwatch mode of rf would be sweet, like pre-targeting a square for quick rf if an enemy walks there, but afaik such a feature is not planned (can a dev confirm this please?)
It's not officially on the roadmap or anything, but I am in favor of this and hope we'll get there eventually.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: ShipIt on June 05, 2013, 06:17:32 pm
@Merlin

What´s the build date of your version? You should see it at the bottom of the main menu.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: kurja on June 06, 2013, 07:09:45 am
shipit, in some earlier version a shot from a standing actor would hit a squadmate crouched in front of him/her, has this changed?
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: ShipIt on June 06, 2013, 09:56:14 am
shipit, in some earlier version a shot from a standing actor would hit a squadmate crouched in front of him/her, has this changed?

Yes. It´s save now.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: homunculus on June 06, 2013, 10:15:02 am
For anyone who wants reaction fire to happen instantly, would you like the aliens doing the same to you?
As soon as you stick your nose around the corner into the alien's field of vision, you would get blasted by the most time unit intensive firemode of heavy particle beam.

It took some time but at last I remembered the main problem with firing: the burst firemode. In this case it would be more realistic if the first shots of the burst were fired sooner. Like a sequence of single shots (uh, I just tried to model in my head the burst accuracy decrease with sequential shots dependent on the soldier's skill of handling recoil, but I guess that would be too radical change).
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: kurja on June 06, 2013, 01:28:08 pm
For anyone who wants reaction fire to happen instantly, would you like the aliens doing the same to you?
As soon as you stick your nose around the corner into the alien's field of vision, you would get blasted by the most time unit intensive firemode of heavy particle beam.
Not "instant reaction fire" per se but a parallel function, that would likely cost more tu's or come with some other complication. I don't think there's any debate over the fact it is a shortcoming of the current game mechanics that it is impossible to have a soldier simply sit tight, aim his/her weapon at a doorway and shoot at a hint of movement in the said doorway; currently the tu cost of firing a weapon is said to include 1) assuming firing position/raising the weapon, 2) aiming and finally 3) taking the shot. Suggested "overwatch mode" would, for an example, spend the tu's needed for stages 1 and 2 immediately, thus less tu's would be needed during the alien turn to actually fire - assuming the enemy ever walks into the targeted area as an actor in overwatch mode would not take any reaction shot at enemies moving about elsewhere. Thus, it would actually cost tu's just to enable this mode, in total it would cost more tu's than normal reaction fire, shots would only be taken on enemies moving in a pre-defined area, plus side being that the shots would happen faster. (ofc the above is just one way of doing it that has been discussed around here)

I'm confident this would not wreck game balance or make normal rf obsolete. But surely this has been discussed through before, just mentioning...

Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: homunculus on June 07, 2013, 11:39:37 am
Not "instant reaction fire" per se but a parallel function, that would likely cost more tu's or come with some other complication.
I don't understand what would be the difference. The aliens would still blast you into cinders as soon as you look around the corner.
currently the tu cost of firing a weapon is said to include 1) assuming firing position/raising the weapon, 2) aiming and finally 3) taking the shot.
That assumes UFO:AI is a computer game. It is not, it is a real world battle between humans and aliens ::)

The last TU cost is missing:

4) recovering from recoil.

Therefore the shot should happen sooner than the total time units cost.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: kurja on June 07, 2013, 01:22:59 pm
I don't understand what would be the difference. The aliens would still blast you into cinders as soon as you look around the corner.That assumes UFO:AI is a computer game. It is not, it is a real world battle between humans and aliens ::)

Only if the alien happens to have pre-targeted that particular corner in it's turn (and having done so would have moved and fired less during it's turn, and during your turn would not take rf shots towards anywhere else). You make it sound like it would become impossible to move at all.

As for getting shot in the face when peeking around a corner, I don't see why that shouldn't happen every now and then.

The last TU cost is missing:

4) recovering from recoil.

Therefore the shot should happen sooner than the total time units cost.
whatever. it's not like I was laying out plans for some shortly upcoming feature.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: homunculus on June 07, 2013, 02:30:39 pm
As for getting shot in the face when peeking around a corner, I don't see why that shouldn't happen every now and then.
whatever. it's not like I was laying out plans for some shortly upcoming feature.
Oh, well, that seems to miss the point entirely. I meant your soldiers (or the aliens) shouldn't be able to run so long in the enemy reaction fire area. Which should be at least half-way similar to what you seem to be suggesting.
That, and first shot of a burst happening even sooner.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Xeinar on June 07, 2013, 03:21:58 pm
The overwatch idea is good (still it seems a redundance of RF reserved points).
In order to avoid instant kill, the rule could be something like: 1) the unit steps in the line of sight 2) if a second uncovered step is taken, (overwatch) RF is activated 2) if a second step is take and goes in cover, there is no RF 3) if the unit rotates on the same spot without taking a second step, no RF is activated.

This would:
- keep on working with the TU count (take one step AND firing would result in a preemptive RF)
- allow aimed RF (sniper rifle, for example)
- avoid instant kill (the soldier/alien can react to a false movement before being blasted)
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: H-Hour on June 07, 2013, 05:02:31 pm
I am more inclined to keep it simple, not RF-specific and without conditions, such as:

Overwatch will improve accuracy and reduce the TU cost of firing by half, but limit the unit's visibility. A soldier will leave overwatch when they move, crouch or turn.

Then, entering overwatch would cost a flat rate (say, 20-24 TUs). The benefits (improved accuracy and cheaper firemode) could be used during the player's turn or during the enemy's turn in reaction fire.

This would interact well with the TU-cost distributions we have in place. A pistol (4 -> 2 TU) would be able to RF after a single grid movement. A snap shot or shotgun (8 -> 4 TU) would give the target an opportunity to retreat but not to do anything else. Burst modes and the cheapest flamer firemode (12 -> 6 TU) would RF before the target could fire everything but pistols. And an aimed Sniper Rifle (20 -> 10 TU) would not be able to beat an alien in a close-up battle, but would be more effective at returning fire when covering distant areas (which would fit its role well).

At a cost of 20-24 TUs, it would interact well with the average TUs of a lightly equipped sniper (40-42). A light sniper could enter overwatch and still get off two shots in a turn (Sniper Rifle only). An assault rifle soldier with normal equip average TUs (~32) could enter overwatch and still possibly take two snap shots in a turn, but would be unable to move much having done so. However, a lightly equipped assault rifle soldier (40-42 TUs) could enter overwatch and then take three to four burst shots. That may be excessive. This could be resolved by making the overwatch cost a % of total TUs, but this would create a situation where the player would not be certain how much it costs and it would go against TU transactions for every other action in the battlescape.

Benefits:

Drawbacks:
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: MonkeyHead on June 08, 2013, 11:51:24 pm
Just going to drop my own minor opinion in here if that is ok with everyone.

Played 2.4 through one full campaign, and switched to 2.5 after that - played it solidly now for a month or so, taking a campaign into the middle game, but no further before choosing to restart. Why you ask? Needlers.  >:(

I know that sounds like a minor peeve, but other than that the balance for 2.5 is overall very good (tested extensivley in the single mission mode to check how needlers compared to particle weapons in the regard). 2.5 rewards agressive play, and punishes mistakes. I was winning most ground combats, and would loose at least one trooper per mission, until those god damn needle guns came along. Quite simply IMHO they are OP when combined with the wound/bleeding out system. Aliens carrying them become death dealing gods. I know the damage done by one needle is tiny - but when several dozen of them can impact on troops even in partial cover from the entire length of the map away, taking away most of a group of troops health and leaving them bleeding out due to multiple wounds in a turn or two time and time again from whole map range it becomes a bit of a joke. I totally get them having a high RoF and cloud like dispersial, but the damage they can deal at long range is a bit silly when you consider the sheer volume of fire (which totally negates thier current level of dispersial) that they can lay down from one end of the map to the other. As soon as needlers came along I would lose almost all my ground combats and should I manage to win one I would lose most of my troops, regardless of approach (flashbangs/smoke grenades, highly cautious cover taking, use of RF, staying at extreme range, NOTHING HELPED!). Has anyone else had such difficulty with them? Unlike other Alien weapons (such as extreme short range of plasma blaster, innacuracy of plasma rifle) they seem to have no weakness.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: H-Hour on June 09, 2013, 12:42:16 am
It's definitely a change when needlers start appearing, but I find the threat from them is very map-dependent. The more open ground you have to cover the more difficult it becomes. The high TU costs of the needler, however, are its big drawback. I found the most effective way to deal with them was to not draw their fire. On large open maps, smoke was the only effective way to prevent return fire. On smaller maps with some cover, indirect fire and drawing the enemy in to a closer range where I could use low TU firemodes helped. The nice thing about needlers is knowing I can get off a snap shot without taking RF.

But of course the needlers are still gonna fire some. For these occassions, I found I really had to use all 12 soldiers (have you gotten the Herakles yet?). When soldiers were injured I just had to take them off the front lines and task another soldier or two to patch them up. If you're still going in with just 8 soldiers, you may not have the manpower to do that. But keep the research program up and you'll get the Herakles not too long after needlers start appearing. And in really dire situations, it helps to have some rookies that you can sacrifice by putting them in harm's way (be sure to keep the rest of your soldiers well away from them!). For this purpose I typically bring 1-2 "scouts", lightly equipped and unarmoured for extra TUs, carrying an assault rifle and a ton of grenades. They're great for reconnaissance and gutsy grenade tossing that saves everyone else. But they never survive long so I don't mind sending one to his death to protect one of my veterans.

From the mid-game onwards (about when needlers start to appear), I found most of the time I had at least a few soldiers off deployments in hospital and sometimes up to 10. Training up a bigger squad that can rotate on and off the battlefield will help for this (and the incentives and stat-growth rate for this should improve in future versions).
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: ShipIt on June 09, 2013, 08:31:29 am
In addition, you can take advantage of this also. You are nearly garanteed to score at least a few hits, which is good for improving the assault skill. And afterwards, you can simply wait for the alien to bleed out. Also, hitting them this way will sometimes make them go mad.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: homunculus on June 22, 2013, 11:54:52 am
Similar to this post in another thread (just a random post that I remember having seen recently, I don't know the general opinion):
Usually, my problem with larger map is not civilians as much as having to play hide and seek for half an hour if not longer[...]
The one greatest turn-off for me has been the size of maps.

I remember once upon a time there were people in the forum (not me, BTW) who wanted large maps where you would have to travel miles before you meet the aliens, but when people saw them the posts about tedious missions appeared (I don't mean the period when there were too many missions, I mean before that time).

I wouldn't mind a large map now and then, even if just to remind the players of what large maps are like, but I would suggest to try to increase the ratio of smaller and more compact maps in future map-making.

Also, sometimes I feel that the soldier models might be too small for the environment and could be drawn larger in the square they stand on, and that might increase the maps being perceived as large, but that's another topic entirely.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Battlescared on July 15, 2013, 03:13:00 am
Adding to this thread, but it's about reaction fire.  This may be a bit of a wounded pride rant.

It sucks.  It is way overpowered for the enemy.

Sorry for the QQ.  That's how I feel about it after encountering them and watching them decimate my team.  For the first few battles, it was about even and reasonable.  Then all of a sudden they just became near invincible, reacting before my troops can do anything.  At this rate, nobody will last long enough to build up stats to be a match for them.  I'm playing on hard mode, and I don't mind a challenge, but this is sort of beyond reasonable for this early in the game.  I'm only in the second month and they're pulling out blasters and one shotting everyone with them before I can barely get a shot off.

That may be what you want, but it's not really the experience I want (though I might get used to it).  I want to be challenged, but when I can't lay out a decent strategy since every move I make causes them to just react and blow me away, the only thing left is to cower in the drop ship and hope they can't fire through it (bug reported).

"version" is "UFO: Alien Invasion 2.5-dev AMD64 Jul 13 2013 Linux DEBUG"
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: Battlescared on July 17, 2013, 01:47:11 am
Kk, QQ is over.  Played with it more, and figuring out tactics to counter the quick reactions of the enemy.  Casualties are up from previous versions.  Hightend sense of dread against the enemies, something that was somewhat missing in the previous versions of UFOAI, and something the original UFO Defense had in plenty.

Bottom line, reaction fire sucks, but it can be beaten, and the game seems to be better for it.  Good job.
Title: Re: 2.5 sucks completely
Post by: H-Hour on July 17, 2013, 10:51:38 am
Bottom line, reaction fire sucks, but it can be beaten, and the game seems to be better for it.  Good job.
Thanks for posting the followup!