Machine gun / Autocannon Discussion

[Vengence]

 Currently it seem that the machine gun is generally ineffective. Why not replace the machine gun with a autocannon as a supporting weapon? It seems logical that a autocannon with HE rounds, should serve as a much more effective squad support weapon.

Discuss.

[Winter]

Because the laws of physics say there is no possible way an autocannon/minigun will ever be an effective infantry weapon, unlike a good reliable machine gun.

Regards,
Winter

[mattheus]

But small caliber (5,56 or 7,62) minigun could be usable thing in heavy powerarmor if man in it weights three times as much as normal soldier. Such minigun's are used in transport helicopters as fire support weapons. Even giving machine gun fire while standing is unrealistic, machine gun should be fired in crouching mode or when laying down.

But machine gun is quite useless in moment. Maybe it could be useful when huge (2x2) alien monsters with very high health points are implemented, but in moment most aliens would be killed also easily by assault rifle and submachinegun fire. Otherwise it works when spreading bullets in line of aliens - but this is very unrealistic situation, because they will hide normal wise.

[Surrealistik]

The machine gun is one weapon I've changed dramatically after an extensive series of tweaks and playtesting. Deadly accurate when crouched (most deployed machine guns are highly accurate), deadly inaccurate when standing, the 100 clip size it's supposed to have, with per bullet damage comparable to the assault rifle (it uses the same ammunition, and I don't see why it'd have less muzzle energy). I've also given it a 'spread' autofire mode that allows a soldier to sweep an area, and potentially kill multiple enemies. Thus far it works wonderfully in its intended role as support/suppression.

[SpaceWombat]

I support Surrealistik's point of view.
About the accuracy: Modern special forces like Navy Seals and Army Rangers use squads with a machine gunner. And they are using it while moving. A machine gun does not have that much recoil as one might think (fired one myself). It is heavy and the accuracy is quite lower when used standing of course but that does not matter because its role is surpression fire and "wall of steel".

Since some assault rifles are also available as light machine guns (with 100 rounds ammo barrel) there is some similarity between assault rifles and machine guns. I think there should be a distinction between those two like different ammo as we see it today - 7.62mm ammo for "real" mgs and 5.56mm for modern assault rifles. Machine guns have a bigger punch (more kinetic energy) but lack the effectiveness over high ranges as well as some weaknes against certain amrour types (larger diameter of the projectile leads to less penetration).

[DaCheetah]

I've been using the MG, it works great if you are crouched.  I gave it to a guy with low Strength but high heavy weapons... now he's like an assault troop...  DEADLY reaction fire, great for covering alleys and windows.

[Woreczko]

The machine gun is one weapon I've changed dramatically after an extensive series of tweaks and playtesting. Deadly accurate when crouched (most deployed machine guns are highly accurate), deadly inaccurate when standing, the 100 clip size it's supposed to have, with per bullet damage comparable to the assault rifle (it uses the same ammunition, and I don't see why it'd have less muzzle energy). I've also given it a 'spread' autofire mode that allows a soldier to sweep an area, and potentially kill multiple enemies. Thus far it works wonderfully in its intended role as support/suppression.

Heh, I tweaked MG in quite a different way. MG in the game has no tripod, neither there is any option to deploy it, so I made it moderately accurate while standing and less so when crouching (from my experience it`s more difficult to use a heavy weapon while crouching than when standing up if it doesn`t have any tripod or similar device, as you can`t lean backwards very much, neither turn easily if situation demands it). To compensate it has a good fire of rate: 5 shots/12 TU and 20 shots/20 TU. However, just as you, I made it deal similar dmg/shot as assault rifle and increased magazine size to 100 as per ufopedia

[Surrealistik]

Heh, I tweaked MG in quite a different way. MG in the game has no tripod, neither there is any option to deploy it, so I made it moderately accurate while standing and less so when crouching (from my experience it`s more difficult to use a heavy weapon while crouching than when standing up if it doesn`t have any tripod or similar device, as you can`t lean backwards very much, neither turn easily if situation demands it). To compensate it has a good fire of rate: 5 shots/12 TU and 20 shots/20 TU. However, just as you, I made it deal similar dmg/shot as assault rifle and increased magazine size to 100 as per ufopedia

Crouching is an abstraction for deployment, in so far as my interpretation of the machine gun is concerned (seeing as it is not actually an option, and crouching is the closest thing).

I've been using the MG, it works great if you are crouched.  I gave it to a guy with low Strength but high heavy weapons... now he's like an assault troop...  DEADLY reaction fire, great for covering alleys and windows.

SMG is superior in just about every way. Given the pitiful per bullet damage of the MG's individual shots, it doesnt even feature armour penetration as an advantage (unlike the assault rifle).

[Opeth666]

I used the machine gun through most of the game, and prefer it over even the particle cannon.  I find that starting out, 3 snipers, 3 machine gunners and 2 grenade launcher/rocket guys are a good mix.  The only problem is that later in the game, the laser rifle is really good, but it requires assault skill and not heavy weapons.  The heavy laser isn't nearly as good, and neither is the particle cannon due to high TU costs and low accuracy.  The machine gun is fantastic in covering a team on reaction fire, as well.

[Cutaway]

Before anyone starts, Project SALVO revealed that any hand-held multi barrel automatic firearm with the rifle calibre above 5.56mm or various Pistol/PDW rounds is STRICTLY UNSUITABLE for man-portable use.

If a hand-held multi barrel weapon comes to exist, It would at the most have 2/3 barrels which would be a quater/half the firepower of a Minigun(6,000RPM) and chambered in either 5.56mmNATO or the likes of various Pistol/PDW rounds. It would be in the form of a Rifle/Squad Automatic Weapon and no way a Gatling type weapon as this would be very bulky/ammo thirsty/clumbersome/hhard to maintain etc. Remember not to be under the impressions that "Hand-Held Miniguns" as seen in "Predator" and "T2JD" can be fired by a person. Even a "Macho Man" wouldnt be able to handle the recoil force of a Minigun as it is very powerful, Thats why Miniguns are strictly used as mounted weapons.

[TrashMan]

But small caliber (5,56 or 7,62) minigun could be usable thing in heavy powerarmor if man in it weights three times as much as normal soldier. Such minigun's are used in transport helicopters as fire support weapons. Even giving machine gun fire while standing is unrealistic, machine gun should be fired in crouching mode or when laying down.

It's no use. Winter hates the very idea of a minigun and since he believes it totally implausable (even with 2080 tech and alien tech) he won't allow it in his game. I already tried to convince him otherwise, but he has the final word in anything regarding UFO:AI (think of him as a mostly benevolent dictator).

[DanielOR]

Please, please let us not start another discussion of miniguns - it has been beaten to death multiple times...

As for MG - I am with Opeth666 - I find MG useful from start to finish, almost.  Love that thing.  I replace them with heavy lasers, somewhat grudgingly, only because of the low spread.  However, considering numebr of rounds fired, the jury is still out. 

Btw, HL is the only weapon that needs more than 1 reloading on a typical mission.  That thing just goes through cartridges...

[Cutaway]

Please, please let us not start another discussion of Miniguns - it has been beaten to death multiple times...

Thats why either Nordenfelt/Bira/Gast action machine guns would be far more practical for a Man-Portable multi barrel firearm.

Nordenfelt machine gun


Nepalese 'Bira gun'.


WW1 German 'Gast gun'.


1957 Winchester-Olin 'Salvo Rifle'.


The "AO-63" assault rifle from the 1988 movie 'Red Scorpion'.


http://www.rediscov.com/spring/VFPCGI.exe?IDCFile=/spring/DETAILS.IDC,SPECIFIC=594,DATABASE=objects

[sirg]

Because the laws of physics say there is no possible way an autocannon/minigun will ever be an effective infantry weapon, unlike a good reliable machine gun.

Yes, that it's true, but how about this - I fired a rocket at an alien wearing that improved armor, and it didn't kill him. Where were the laws of physics then?

[Nevasith]

maybe it would resemble failure of rocket targeting system- if there is any installed- i mean, it is really difficult for a rocket to track a small moving object. Still if the rocket hits even close to the alien- even if he is not torn apart by the explosion, the shock should change him into bloody mass inside of armour