CURRENT STORYLINE -- SPOILERS!

[ghosta]

The reason why I like the "slave" issue is that we can implement some sort of slave hunters and scientists that arrive before it starts to get a military operation (for the aliens). So we get access to the technology to stand a chance vs them.

Would also be cool to make maps with UFOs and civilians in cells behind force fields or something like that

[TrashMan]

You idea is nice Sarin, but it runs into one inherent problem - the need to change some of the things already in-game.

that's why I went with a a story idea that preserves the already done stuff, but changes the fluff and stuff to come to be more reasonable and believable.

[ghosta]

How about changing the big one alien mind to a more individual one. Like having clusters that spread news/thoughts/orders.
This would allow some research topics that are available after some special aliens got captures (not like "capture 10 aliens alive" more like "you can find a alien commander in every bigger ship, it looks like the others, but it is stronger/has psi powers/has additional guards") something like that. I dont like the concept of "all aliens are equal".

[homunculus]

1) i think the versions that seem most believable in this thread are the ones that claim that the virus is not intelligent by itself, but joins the host's brain into the common consciousness by enabling a telepathic link.

the intelligence of such a psionic society would be immense, wouldn't it?
it's like the brains of all the population of several inhabited worlds joined together in a cluster.
i would guess there would be more than a few humans who would voluntarily like to be part of such system.
bio weapon thing wouldn't even be necessary imho, the aliens might just have created the virus or something else with similar effect to enhance their own race by linking their minds together.

2) there is something about the x-com:eu story that makes it so great.
this is the modern form of mythology, the ufo mythology, brought to life in the game.
especially the greatness of x-com:eu story in my eyes is in that the ufo mythology is not made subject to any quality control by rational thinking and common sense, and totally preserves the ego-stroking grotesqueness of the myth (i hope this phrase is understandable?).

this is why the brain harvesting is imho brilliant, because the brains are what humans are so proud of.
what i don't like so much about the virus idea (i can anticipate i might need a disclaimer: i can live with it, of course, lol) is that in the original story the aliens are the victimized victims of the evil bio weapon developers that also became victims themselves in the end. and the bio weapon itself is a victim of its own immense size. this gets so emo.

i would rather see aliens gathering human brains (preferably without body) to work for their research cluster while they amuse themselves with souvenirs from the primitive planet the same way we amuse ourselves with folk art.
or use human brains for thinking their simple thoughts (like a brain extension) and thus freeing their own brain resources to deal with the higher arts and sciences.
they could even be making a good business from selling the brains back to their home world, somewhat analogously to europeans conquering the americas.

3) on the other hand, i suddenly remembered it would be nice to try to contribute something to the thread.

if people are looking for an explanation why the aliens are coming in small groups, i think it is apparent in the original story about the conquering of the races and the search for new races in the galaxy.
all that is needed is to remove the initial attack on mumbai.
and the explanation is as follows:

the first ufo-s contain only tamans because the scouting ships that arrive first where sent when the ortnok were not conquered yet.
and then they contain ortnoks and tamans but no shevaar, because the shevaar were not conquered when the next scouts were sent, and also the particle beam was not invented before.

and they are abducting humans rather than just waiting for the ark to arrive, because they first need to build a gateway or wormhole creation device of some sort.
the abducted humans are taken to some close planet or moon or orbiting ufo to work as slaves to build the giant gateway device that is needed for the ark to arrive.
i hope this could be made to sound as much like the babel tower myth as possible.

all this is possible if people are willing to let go of the initial mass slaughter attack on mumbai, of course.
as already said in this thread several times, the initial mumbai thing makes some of the storyline look awkward and, sorry, i am also totally out of ideas about how to fix it, except claiming that the aliens lost too many of their scouting force to build the gateway themselves and now resorted to plan B which is abducting.

to find out (without attracting too much attention in the process) why aliens are abducting humans, and to stop it if possible, would be enough to call phalanx into existence imho, but with the attack on mumbai it would already be all out war from the start, and phalanx would not need to be so secret.

4) oh, actually there's one more possible reason for the aliens to come to earth: the aliens are just gathering specimens for their galactic zoology museums.
but the universe is big and they have many museums and every museum wants a specimen, and therefore the human race is bound to be exterminated in the process.
this would also explain the combat AI shortcomings which are almost unavoidable from the development point of view, because the aliens that would come to earth would be not fighters but museum agents and other random geeks.
they only hire ortnoks as bodyguards when things turn out dangerous, but the menacing looking ortnoks are also not extremely bright in the brains department.
the phalanx would be interested in presenting their research results in as horrifying form as possible to get more finances, until at some point the real truth unfolds.

ok, whatever, 1 and 2 were my opinions (which is a matter of taste), 3 was a suggestion, and you can figure out what 4 was, i guess.

[Zardox]

Hi,
Just played through the single player campaign (as far as it goes) and really enjoyed it.

Then did some reading in all the storyline threads to see where the game is going?

Few points as feedback for everyone to consider (All IMHO obviously!):

Why do you have to explain everything about the aliens?  They are, after all, alien.

For me, the best part of the story was the bits around the time I discovered that the Kerrblade was an autopsy tool and before the research of "Strange Behaviour".
NOT KNOWING or understanding in this case is better... it's creepy.
What are these guys doing?  Do they mean to wipe us out?  If so... why don't they just do it?
(Oh... and BTW... once you control the space around a planet if you have drive systems like the aliens, you can easily destroy all life on the surface of the planet)
So, they are not destroying us...why?

So, my suggestion is that you can leave large parts of unexplained plot.  That's okay.

Particularly when dealing with a 'hive mind' element.

I have seen some questions about why the aliens come in small groups?  Why don't bees always swarm?  To my thinking, it could be  because earth, and the individual humans on it are of minor concern. 
Our technology is primitive.  We are just a very minor curiosity.
When the 'hive mind' becomes aware of us it is in no hurry.  It has all the time in the world universe...and it knows it.  It will assimilate everything... and it 'knows' it.  It is simply a matter of time.
The problem for PHALANX of course is that it is impossible to have any secrets.  Once one alien knows something about PHALANX (weapons, tactics, base locations) then they all know it.  And if one human mind becomes part of the hive mind... it knows everything.
I think the big issue for the aliens and the hive mind (note I am treating these two as separate) is when PHALANX starts to use alien equipment.
Think of it like this: We know about ants.  We stand on them.  Some kids burn them with magnifying glasses.  We poison them. And a few people even study them.  Once in a while one will bite you.  You squash it and maybe hurt for a minute and then move on.  We all know about ants and yet we don't really care too much or think about it too much.
Now imagine one day you go out into your garden and suddenly you are hit with a blinding beam of light... your cloths catch fire!
It turns out some kids have left a magnifying glass outside and the ants have picked it up and modified it and are now using it as a weapon against you. 
I bet you... and probably the whole human race will suddenly focus a whole lot more attention on the ants!

That said, the (alien) technology seems wrong for a hive mind?  The ships have pilots' chairs and stations which a human would feel comfortable (in terms of assuming a role as pilot or navigator I mean)?
And that in itself suggests that they were built by aliens that were not part of the hive mind when they constructed the ships... yet if this was the case the ships would have some kind of communications equipment?
Unless, the aliens who built the ships had telepathic power and were not part of the 'hive mind'?  That suggests the 'hive mind' and the telepathic abilities are separate issues?

Not to mention that the AI play doesn't suggest a hive mind either.  Why would individuals take cover?  Their goal is to destroy members of the team... taking cover gets in the way of that goal?
I am trying to picture an ant or bee swarm here.
The only reason I can think that an entity controlled by a 'hive mind' (or with a hive mentality) might take cover is if their numbers were small and they had to preserve every individual?

So, I would suggest a few plot twists could work quite well with the initial aliens (Talman) being a separate issue to the whole 'hive mind' thing.

As for the virus...
At the moment that part of the plot seems 'rushed' and incomplete.
I would suggest that you could even make the virus a completely different plot all on it's own.
Maybe the 'hive mind' virus is a completely separate thing to the initial alien attacks by the Talman etc?

At one point I even considered the possibility that the aliens were waging their own war (nothing to do with us) and Earth simply 'got in the way'.  Perhaps the aliens were visiting to see which side we were on?  (Maybe it never occurred to them we were on neither side?)
Or maybe they were puzzled by the fact we were so difficult to communicate with?

Anyway... those are my thoughts FWIW.  Take it or leave it.

EDIT: Oh - a small point on the one thing that niggled at me throughout the game - "Terrorist"?
When the aliens attack - please call it an "INCURSION" (a hostile entrance into or invasion of a place or territory, esp. a sudden one; raid: "The bandits made brief incursions on the village").  The use of 'terrorist' implies the aliens have a political goal and more besides.  Do these aliens understand earth politics?  If so, why can't we communicate with them?  Wrong word entirely.

Overall though.  I enjoyed this game.  Thanks. Looking forward to seeing what develops.
 

[Talon112]

Zardox raises some good arguments.

I don't really like the virus as it sits now, Maybe mix up some of the story lines into something more believable?

Splitting the invaders into two or even three factions would be a fun twist. Sometimes they all work together, but then, sometimes they starts to infight, especially when a plan goes wrong.

The 'Terror Sites' smack of UFO:EU, I thought you were trying for a different angle than that, but keep the spirit?

Anyway, if I wasn't tired after work, I'd pen up a version of my own.

[shevegen]

> Why do you have to explain everything about the aliens? 

I do not think one necessarily has to explain everything, but if their background story is more plausible,
then the whole game wins in more detail.

> Not to mention that the AI play doesn't suggest a hive mind either.

I think the AI is a bit suboptimal right now, but on the other hand, a hive mind concept could be
interesting - it would give the whole aliens a more BORG like feeling (Star Trek)
Doesnt necessarily have to be a "hive mother" commanding, but it could be a good integrated
communication among the more intelligent aliens, and this could impact the gameplay
in that these aliens behave better than very "offensive" and stupid aliens, whose only
aim would be to rush forward and kill enemies without thinking much. You know... the
typical strong alien beasts.


> At one point I even considered the possibility that the aliens were waging their own war (nothing to
> do with us) and Earth simply 'got in the way'.

I think this is problematic because, if they have a war, why would they send units over to Earth, and
why would they try to start another war? I think it is much better if the aliens are evil and want to
expand into new territories.

>  Perhaps the aliens were visiting to see which side we were on?

Visiting, or visiting-and-killing-people? ;-)

> (Maybe it never occurred to them we were on neither side?)

Interesting idea but I think it would rather distract from the main focus of the game - human vs alien.

Whether the aliens fight other aliens, is not necessarily that interesting in the first place. (It could
be interesting maybe lateron, when different aliens are "discovered", which even fight against
both humans and other "earlier" aliens, but I think the main plot should always be humans vs aliens)


> Or maybe they were puzzled by the fact we were so difficult to communicate with?

Come on ... they are supposed to be smart. They should not be puzzled, they should lay
down different strategies and follow up on that.

[Zardox]

> Why do you have to explain everything about the aliens? 

>>I do not think one necessarily has to explain everything, but if their background story is more plausible,
then the whole game wins in more detail.

Agreed.  But the 'danger' I see here is that the plot ends up explaining everything right down to the last detail.
It is not impossible (probable actually) it could take years, generations or even centuries to learn about an alien race.  So, just for the sake of a 'tidy' plot you should not overdo it.  Not knowing exactly what motivates the aliens and why they are behaving in such an alien way potentially adds to the plot.
You don't always have to spoon feed readers / gamers... and nor should you.
Great Sci Fi writers of the past didn't.

"My god!  It's full of stars..." (IIRC) ;-)

> Not to mention that the AI play doesn't suggest a hive mind either.

>>I think the AI is a bit suboptimal right now, but on the other hand, a hive mind concept could be
>>interesting - it would give the whole aliens a more BORG like feeling (Star Trek)

That was my thought too.  Ortnok are not the brightest according to the Autopsy Report.  Put more of them in and have them advance without worrying too much about cover.

>>Doesnt necessarily have to be a "hive mother" commanding, but it could be a good integrated
>>communication among the more intelligent aliens, ...

I agree.  I would suggest, based on what I have seen so far that Ortnok are led by a Taman in small...um... herds?

> At one point I even considered the possibility that the aliens were waging their own war (nothing to
> do with us) and Earth simply 'got in the way'.

>>I think this is problematic because, if they have a war, why would they send units over to Earth, and
>>why would they try to start another war? I think it is much better if the aliens are evil and want to
>>expand into new territories.

Who says they were trying to start a war... yeah the back story... I am inclined to agree this may need a review.
They just came down to see if we could be any use to them... then for some strange reason we objected to being cut up for research?
Hmmm... weird.
I mean any intelligent species would understand that this research would benefit everyone in the long term and wouldn't mind if a few of its members were dissected in the name of research?
I mean it's not like they suffered?  Bloodspiders are engineered to be efficient?
 

>  Perhaps the aliens were visiting to see which side we were on?
> (Maybe it never occurred to them we were on neither side?)

>>Interesting idea but I think it would rather distract from the main focus of the game - human vs alien.


>>Whether the aliens fight other aliens, is not necessarily that interesting in the first place. (It could
>>be interesting maybe lateron, when different aliens are "discovered", which even fight against
>>both humans and other "earlier" aliens, but I think the main plot should always be humans vs aliens)

Yes, but I am just saying that while their exact motivation is unclear the story is richer (IMHO).

> Or maybe they were puzzled by the fact we were so difficult to communicate with?

>>Come on ... they are supposed to be smart. They should not be puzzled, they should lay
>>down different strategies and follow up on that.

This goes back to the whole 'hive mind' part of the story too.
In a true 'hive mind' the individuals are not too smart on their own.  This is why I don't really like the whole 'hive mind virus' thing.
Individuals are pretty much just drones and operate on a few simple rules to perform their task.  (IIRC you can simulate the behaviour of an ant colony with less than a dozen simple rules)
That's why I don't think a true 'hive mind' would bother with things like taking cover.
I like the idea of a more 'nodal' type intelligence where there are small nodes which operate as a unit and maybe are raised from birth that way.
This is about half way to a hive mind from individuals?

And the plot does say they the aliens seem to think our attempts to communicate with them as individuals are strange.
But then it rapidly does a back flip and has them learning sign language etc...

As for why they don't attempt to communicate:  Maybe they don't see any need to communicate with us.  We have nothing to offer because we are so primitive?

They could be basically Xenophobes too.  Or the Taman might see us as a threat for some reason (humanoid form - but different from them)

Hey... it could be about religion! ;-)  Maybe our existance disproves the existence of their god  .

[TrashMan]

1) i think the versions that seem most believable in this thread are the ones that claim that the virus is not intelligent by itself, but joins the host's brain into the common consciousness by enabling a telepathic link.

the intelligence of such a psionic society would be immense, wouldn't it?
it's like the brains of all the population of several inhabited worlds joined together in a cluster.
i would guess there would be more than a few humans who would voluntarily like to be part of such system.
bio weapon thing wouldn't even be necessary imho, the aliens might just have created the virus or something else with similar effect to enhance their own race by linking their minds together.

Sounds good to me too, but for story and realism purposes, limit the telephatic link by distance. That would also explain why the attack on Earth is initially slow and weak - the smaller the numbers, the lesser the inteligence and effort, and the main forces of the aliens are far away, so a telephatic links in not possible.

this is why the brain harvesting is imho brilliant, because the brains are what humans are so proud of.
what i don't like so much about the virus idea (i can anticipate i might need a disclaimer: i can live with it, of course, lol) is that in the original story the aliens are the victimized victims of the evil bio weapon developers that also became victims themselves in the end. and the bio weapon itself is a victim of its own immense size. this gets so emo.

i would rather see aliens gathering human brains (preferably without body) to work for their research cluster while they amuse themselves with souvenirs from the primitive planet the same way we amuse ourselves with folk art.
or use human brains for thinking their simple thoughts (like a brain extension) and thus freeing their own brain resources to deal with the higher arts and sciences.

Hmm..don't like the brain harvesting idea myself..unless they got a very good reason to do so.

3) on the other hand, i suddenly remembered it would be nice to try to contribute something to the thread.

if people are looking for an explanation why the aliens are coming in small groups, i think it is apparent in the original story about the conquering of the races and the search for new races in the galaxy.
all that is needed is to remove the initial attack on mumbai.
and the explanation is as follows:

the first ufo-s contain only tamans because the scouting ships that arrive first where sent when the ortnok were not conquered yet.
and then they contain ortnoks and tamans but no shevaar, because the shevaar were not conquered when the next scouts were sent, and also the particle beam was not invented before.

that would imply all the other races were conquered and sent towards earth within the span of a few months tops. Not very bloody likely.

Better to have the aliens simply split their forces in various groups, and since the Tamans are the lightest warriors they have, they also form the "scout corps" of a sorts. So the first one sent were Tamans. Then the aliens send bigger forces, but the lack of a interstellar telephatic link makes them react slower (or act dumber).

Either way, if there's ANYTIHING I'd remove from the original story, then that would have to be the inteligent telephatic virus and ht aliens conquering a WHOLE GALAXY and then heading here. (no offense to anyone, but that's one of hte stupidest ideas in the history of stupid ideas.)

[TrashMan]

Regarding the virus, you have several routes you can go with it.

1. Keep everything as it is (wouldn't recommend it)

2. Virus is not inteligent itself, but makes the host suceptable to psychic control, from someone else (who?)

3. Ditch the virus puppets idea completely and instead have it be normal aliens that just want to wage war. I mean really, EVERY single game that came out lately about invading aliens (UFO style) has some sort of aliens-are-mind-controlled-by-someone schtik. It's getting old. Really old.
The virus could simply be a Bio-weapon used against humans when the aliens see we're kicking their collective butts.

[homunculus]

Sounds good to me too, but for story and realism purposes, limit the telephatic link by distance. That would also explain why the attack on Earth is initially slow and weak - the smaller the numbers, the lesser the inteligence and effort, and the main forces of the aliens are far away, so a telephatic links in not possible.

distance dependency of telepathic link is already in the story, afaik.
there is some text about you needing a certain number of aliens in your containment facility to study the alien intelligence.
also, there is statement that if the alien population would split itself in two there would be two separate hive minds with their individual interests, with the awkward statement that those hive minds would rather fight than join together again.

if the virus is not intelligent by itself, or at least does not contribute to the collective intelligence if the host is dead, then the more aliens you kill in a mission, the less intelligent the remaining aliens should become.

also, to those who say that the aliens should be swarming and not taking cover:
when you play the human team, you are the hive mind of the humans, and you still order your soldiers to take cover.

[TrashMan]

So why not have warring hive-minds? That would make the whole story even more plausible, since earth wouldn't be facing a unified, large galactic force, but rather only one smaller faction. That would certanly boots the survival chances.

As for the killing aliens to reduce intelligence - more alien reinforcements are coming. Those you kill are replaced easily, probably faster then you can kill them.


Also, when you're the hive mind of the human, you control only a very small force at any time. So conserving your resources? A very good idea. When you have 1000000000000000000 troops at your disposal? What do a few matter?

[Coconut Jonlan]

Though i hadn't read this when i wrote it. I still think the comments here on Mumbai are valid, that a full-scale slaughter doesn't mesh well with opening gameplay, nor does it seem necessary.

I have to agree with this.

1. We have an entity that is concerned about resources - and has previously used "cloak and dagger" techniques to proliferate.

2. we have a species of very low genetic diversity (i.e. us)

It makes no sense for the aliens to reveal themselves in this manner for the reasons suggested - anatomy and genone mapping could be done by a just a few secretive abductions ay worst  - all that's needed (in theory) to map a genone of an individual is a single nucleus of a single cell - mapping the entire genome of the species could be acheived with a few hundred - perhaps a few thousand samples - easily obtained without the subject even knowing about it.

The virus could be spread by insect sized robotic probes released in a few key areas (this is quite within our own technology today so well within the grasp of a technological civilisation 1my older than ours) with the infected then left to do the work of the aliens for them - just like before.
So humanity could easily fall with barely a shot fired.
In that context then the Mumbai attack makes no sense whatsoever.
What would make sense is if there was something within Mumbai that was a serious enough threat to the aliens for them to expend both their own precious resources and the resources of the planet they wished to conquer - divert attention away from the wormhole device construction - and reveal themselves.
Perhaps a genetic predisposition common in people from the Indian sub-continent that confers resistance to - or an ability to subvert or control the virus - something ity had never encountered before.

This makes far more sense in the context of the storyline - prior to remote relese of the virus the aliens must perform a genetic cleansing operation to remove the "dangerous" individuals from the population- while that is going on the virus can only be released in a  controlled and very direct manner using the virus ships.

[Dusty]

I wonder, if was thought some messy things for the storyline;

For example another secretive militia and organization supporting the aliens, or missions like raiding human places like the U.N. or any other important politic place, looking for vital data (maybe kidnaping a polititian supporting aliens or related with a enemy organization), or could be found that PHALANX is serving the alien interests, so you will be doing new missions to remove the current leaders or spies

Combat between different races of aliens is interesting, for example a revolt of lizards, BTW that will not turn the lizards in "good aliens". is just for cross fire scenaries with many aliens fighting each other while your squad is doing rescue missions

Or an assault to an UFO, but inflight, maybe a squad delivered with a stealthy aircraft with less room for soldiers, to kill some key-alien leaders

i think also aliens should take cities

[homunculus]

So why not have warring hive-minds? That would make the whole story even more plausible, since earth wouldn't be facing a unified, large galactic force, but rather only one smaller faction. That would certanly boots the survival chances.[...]

both hive minds want to grow and therefore they should join.
if they didn't want to grow then they wouldn't be looking to assimilate new humanoids, i guess?
or was it that they just came here for resources?

[...]As for the killing aliens to reduce intelligence - more alien reinforcements are coming. Those you kill are replaced easily, probably faster then you can kill them.[...]

i was talking about one tactical mission scale.

when you have few aliens in the containment, then according to the story they are not very intelligent.
this is because the telepathic link diminishes with distance.
this is also the same reason why there would be two separate hive minds if the aliens split up in large enough communities.

if there is separate mind in alien containment, then there should also be separate mind in tactical missions and the intelligence of that mind should depend on the number of aliens alive in the tactical mission.

but then the last few aliens should always be captured alive as, according to the story, they should be like imbeciles or worse.

[...]Also, when you're the hive mind of the human, you control only a very small force at any time. So conserving your resources? A very good idea. When you have 1000000000000000000 troops at your disposal? What do a few matter?

i think it matters because i assume you would want to get the job done in the tactical mission, even as an alien.
i have never seen 1000000000000000000 aliens in any tactical mission.

[...]The virus could be spread by insect sized robotic probes released in a few key areas[...]

afaik somewhere in the storyline it said that the amount of infected blood that must be transferred must be large enough, this is why aliens will be using this large syringe thing.

========
the dominant life forms on earth are fungi and bacteria, etc, if the virus was intelligent by itself and the hosts didn't need to be intelligent, then it doesn't make much sense to target humans only.

on the other hand, if the virus just enabled a telepathic link between the hosts, then why would a single separated host be less intelligent than before getting infected?