regarding gatling/minigun

[TrashMan]

If he doesn't want it in the game, alright. I can accept that altough I'd like to see the min.

But I'd rather he just flat out said "I hate the idea of a portable gattling cannon. My game! Does not go in! Period!", rather than go around with the "It's impossible to make one, it's not realistic!" statements (in the same game that has plasma pistols and particle accelerator cannons I might add).

I think everyone by now can see that you CAN make one...heck, even now...let' alone 80 years in the future with added alien tech.

[BTAxis]

You can always make a mod for the game that does include the minigun. Such a mod would only be a set of ufo configuration files. All people would need to do is use your 0ufos.pk3 as opposed to the stock one.

Of course, there's also the matter of UFOpaedia descriptions, so it'd be a little more involved than that, but you get the idea.

[Aiki-Knight]

If he doesn't want it in the game, alright. I can accept that altough I'd like to see the min.

But I'd rather he just flat out said "I hate the idea of a portable gattling cannon. My game! Does not go in! Period!", rather than go around with the "It's impossible to make one, it's not realistic!" statements (in the same game that has plasma pistols and particle accelerator cannons I might add).

I think everyone by now can see that you CAN make one...heck, even now...let' alone 80 years in the future with added alien tech.

He doesn't simply hate the gatling gun. He's got good reasons. A gatling gun doesn't fit with the other early-game weapons. It's not a stupid idea; it just doesn't fit with the thrust of the game. XCOM games did have a gun that looked like a gatling, but of course you remember that its fire rate was similar to other firearms. I for one appreciate the realism of the current weapons load-out. Who knows what they'll have in 2084? But I like the contemporary basics of the early game. Why is everyone so fixated on having a man-portable rotary cannon? Did Jesse Ventura in "Predator" leave such a lasting imprint? I for one thought it was one of dumbest parts of the movie. Fun. But dumb, you know?

Here's an idea: why don't you go borrow a 50-pound barbell from your local gym, and just go for a walk. See how far you get before you figure that it's just too cumbersome to carry around. I bet a gatling gun with ammo, even a super-futuristic small one, would weigh much more. You have to understand that all those barrels multiply the weight. Honestly - give it a try and let us know how many hundreds of meters you walked before you had to take a break. I'm not making fun of anyone. I know that a regular machine gun with ammo was a burden, and it didn't weigh 50 pounds, which isn't THAT much, when you think about it.

And as you're walking with it, consider whether you could

1. run with it
2. storm rooms with it
3. swing it around fast enough to aim at and shoot at enemies who appear at close range
4. Hit the ground into the prone position with it, the  get up again
5. hold it reasonably steady, in addition to its weight, while firing it under recoil.

Could you do these things in full body armor, with helmet, ammo, water canteen, various equipment? In the dead of winter? On a 40-degree summer day (plus humidity)? At night, with poor vision? All I'm saying is, ultimately, who could do this? You'd need an Olympic athlete, who'd get killed by an enemy sniper for being so slow-moving. What if the weapon got dirty? (Hey - it rains. Stuff falls out of trees. Sometimes you have to hit the deck). What if it gets wet?

Well, I suppose we've discussed this to death.

[DanielOR]

Aiki-Knight: oh, "to death" does not begin to cover it.  "death" was about 3 pages ago when the dev(s) said "no way" for the first time.  Since then the topic has been resurrected and beaten to death multiple times.  This string should be renamed "necromancy".

[Kildor]

But there are some miniguns in multiplayer game.

[DanielOR]

IT LIVES!  It has rizen AGAIN!

aaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

[TrashMan]

He doesn't simply hate the gatling gun. He's got good reasons. A gatling gun doesn't fit with the other early-game weapons. It's not a stupid idea; it just doesn't fit with the thrust of the game. XCOM games did have a gun that looked like a gatling, but of course you remember that its fire rate was similar to other firearms. I for one appreciate the realism of the current weapons load-out. Who knows what they'll have in 2084? But I like the contemporary basics of the early game. Why is everyone so fixated on having a man-portable rotary cannon? Did Jesse Ventura in "Predator" leave such a lasting imprint? I for one thought it was one of dumbest parts of the movie. Fun. But dumb, you know?

Who said anything about it being a early-game weapon?
Oh, UFO had gattling guns..the real deal.
All the reasons I've heard so far are purely subjective...nothing that really holds water.

*SNIP*

You fall in the same logical hole as before - you treat it as a assualt rifle instead of a specialized weapon. I ask you now to apply all these arguments to a large missile launcher. According to these arguments, such a launcher is the stupidest thing ever...yet it's there. There are even missile launchers or weapon systems that require two people to man properly! Oh noes - you can't run with it or storm room with it! Obviously, the military is sooo stupid to have these, right?

So, let's not forget the following:
1. game is set in the future
2. human have alien tech
3. humans have power armor

All things considered, a gattling canon is PERFECLY workable.
Power armor solves the issues of mobility and stabiltiy, while modern tech can solve the issue of weight and ammo. In fact, I'd be surprised if by 2084 you couldn't build a gattling cannon that's perfecly man portable. Don't forget, we had one for 20 years allready - all it needs is to be further refined and improved, as all weapons do.

[Nevasith]

We never get to an agreement as people who want MG will not give up and those who doesnt want it will not either.
Now lets thing about the potential use of minigun

Only idea i got for tactical missions is to use it to lock some area with heavy fire. How would you do it?
Well the only way is to get a good spot for it- easy to defend and with good sight over the area. Maybe a rooftop- or a hill?
How to get there? You need to walk there- often assign someone with short range weapon to protect the MG gunner and clear the way.
The point is, that by that time a sniper would get there much earlier and would already kill anything he can aim. On tactical missions speed is crucial- you need to get onto position before the enemy does.  And you REALLY dont need 10k rounds per minute in tactical missions. An ordinary light support gun- single barrelled medium speed and weight weapon- something with you can fall into the dust while being shoot at and than shoot back, or you can easily fetch up the stairs and take position. That will be much more useful . You are mostly fighting in the urban area! You cant just shoot around and raze the city yourself!
Aditional problem with MG is its mechanical construction- the more movable parts the bigger risk of failure. Minigun needs a good working environment to work properly- special point to place it, special handling and even than you cant be sure if a sudden wind blow wont push some dust into a rotating mechanism and lock the gun
As for the rocket launcher- it is useless at the moment until tank-like vehicles are introduced. I hope there will be a grenade alternative for rockets even then. Whatever happens the Rockets should have really high accuracy as almost every missile now has some guiding system and its relatively easy to hit a tank from quite afar

[Surrealistik]

As for the rocket launcher- it is useless at the moment until tank-like vehicles are introduced.

The rocket launcher is by no means useless. It's effectively an ultrapowerful AoE sniper rifle, and indispensible early game on the hardest difficulty. A situational weapon certainly, but useful nonetheless just like a minigun would be (unparalleled crowd control, superb versus heavily armoured targets).

Anyways, I pretty much agree with Trash-Man. There is no compelling logical reason to necessarily bar a minigun, and arguments so far offered against it have been nothing but sophistry, or baseless kneejerk antipathy.

[TrashMan]

@Nevasith:

Actually, I'm discussing this cause I like to discuss such thing, but more importantly, because when I know something is right or wrong and I hear people say otherwise, I get a naggin' impulse to correct them...epsecially if it's about something I like or have a interest in.

Speaking of which - I used  the rocket launcher quite a bit.. Far from useless. Rather accurate and packs one hell of a punch.

A minigun would be used in specific circumstances - in places where you get  a good overview and where you need firepower - like base defense. You can defend the whole corridor from multiple opponents with a minigun.

[Falion]

Hmmm....the idea of the mini-gun for base defense is very intriguing, it would go a LONG way to denying easy corridor access in a base assault by any would be intruders. My thoughts are changing a bit on this...as if such a weapon was to be put into the game but for "specific" uses such as this...it could be a good thing. In regards to being able to make a MG plausible, it certainly would be less difficult than in mass producing hand held laser, plasma, or particle weapons...that much is surely true. Be interesting to have a vehicle mounted MG, guarding base entrances...or even wall mounted with motion sensors if such is even possible with this quake engine.

What about it Winter, BT? Any chance of getting a MG in the single player game for very specific uses as noted above, just not for any field work?

[TrashMan]

Hmmm....the idea of the mini-gun for base defense is very intriguing, it would go a LONG way to denying easy corridor access in a base assault by any would be intruders. My thoughts are changing a bit on this...as if such a weapon was to be put into the game but for "specific" uses such as this...it could be a good thing. In regards to being able to make a MG plausible, it certainly would be less difficult than in mass producing hand held laser, plasma, or particle weapons...that much is surely true.

No, it would be more difficult.

The current portable minigun (Microgun) has still too many bugs to be used EFFECTIVELY. You can't fire it full speed while standing up, you got to reduce the RoF by more than a half and it's a bit heavy.

Now, by 2084 they might have fixed those bugs (I explained how before) - heck I would be surprised if they didn't. Let's assume they didn't - the microgun was forgotten and nobody looked seriously into portable miniguns until the UFO's came calling.
Now, our dear Cmdr. Navare had to sift tough all the past research projects and he would probably stumble onto this. He might think "hey, 80 years have passed since this was reported and it sorta worked. Hmmm.. technolgoy has progressed by now, we even got some alien stuff in the labs. Maybe we CAN make this work!"
So this wouldn't be a starting tech. Heck, maybe this could be a late-game tech.

Either way, when you put such a thing together it won't be easy to make or cheap. Just the ammo alone will cost ya.

Now, I've been playing with this weapon modded in, and I've been experimenting with it for days. I generally only have one guy with this, since shooting costs a lot of TU's and it's not accurate at longer ranges. (14TU's for a 20 bullet burst, 30 TU's for full auto - 50 bullets). If 2-3 aliens are close together (close being relative) this thing can butcher them.
The biggest problem is getting a clear shot for a full auto. T&he aliens run away, hiding behind something, and if you move, you don't have enough TU's for a full auto. Maybe I'm making it too TU expensive...Maybe it needs another mode of fire.. Dunno, I gotta experiment a bit more. I've even considered making the full-auto expend 100 bullets...would empty the 200 bullet magazine quick, but a single agent can fit 2 in the inventory (total of 600 bullets)

[Falion]

Well...if such a weapon could be made to work, say in the time frame that we are talking about in 2084. Could this not be a vehicle mounted weapon, or held by someone wearing advanced power armor for a base defense scenario. If not...just scrap the whole idea to the waste basket and forget about it totally. Sounds like it may be more trouble than its worth in the long run. Here I was just getting used to the idea, of such a weapon being used possibly / hopefully for base defense 

You sure it would be more difficult to produce this type of weapon ( since we already did it....bugs aside ), compared to making weapons we have no idea of how to manufacture like a hand held particle weapon? Regardless, this is my last thoughts on the issue...

I'm eagerly awaiting 2.3 

[TrashMan]

By 2080? Definately should be fully man portable.

It is now, alltough..not quite. Reducing the RoF mean reducing the main atractivenes of a minigun - weight is in reality a secondary problem.
Currently the Micorgun weighs only slighly more than a standard heavy MG.

So basicely, you focus on techniques to reduce recoil. There are some already. The VHS* rifle uses (will use, it's still a prototpye) a "air cushin" system that makes it almost recoilless, even at full auto. Caseless ammo exists for some time. There are other technological and design advanacements out there too.

So by 2080 I wouldn't be surprised if you could make a man-portable minigun that can be used effectively even without power armor. F'course, for game purposes I would make the power armor a requirement.







*

more info:
http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/3000/3088.htm

[DanielOR]

Very cool rifle indeed and does propose and elegant solution to the recoil problem.  This part of the way to making a gattling protable.