project-navigation
Personal tools

Author Topic: storyline question: Why is phalanx a secret organization?  (Read 31354 times)

Offline TrashMan

  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 833
    • View Profile
Re: storyline question: Why is phalanx a secret organization?
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2012, 11:57:00 am »
Its funny you mention the NSA because signals intelligence is a good reason behind total secrecy.

While there might or might not be alien sympathisers we still have the issue that global communications is not only insecure but we are constantly beaming signals into space for satellites to bounce back which is very easily intercepted by the aliens.

If they learn how to translate these signals a publicly known organisation aimed at combating the alien threat would be a priority target, thus starting the hunt for the base. 

By keeping the organisation it a secret it removes that obvious target and PHALANX operations blend into the pre-existing military responses.  The early improvement in response and technologies would possibly be dismissed by the aliens in that it can be expected for Earth's combat forces to adapt hence why the aliens have improved equipment ready to go when Earth steps things up.

By the time it would become obvious that Earth has a dedicated response, PHALANX is in a much better position to defend itself (well if the player plays properly they will anyway)

I don't buy it for 1 second.

a) aliens knowgin about Phalanx doesn't help them to find te base at all
b) There's bound to be organized resistacne, so an organization like Pahalnx really should catch any intelligent alien by surprise. Phalanx or reguklar military - it doesn't really matter. An enemy is an enemy.

Offline headdie

  • Squad Leader
  • ****
  • Posts: 119
    • View Profile
Re: storyline question: Why is phalanx a secret organization?
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2012, 09:37:35 pm »
But knowing about the organisation means you will be looking for deployment patterns knowing that there will be something to look for, when you find regions where human activities show differences to the background norm then you know you have a good candidate for Phalanx

the Earth is not forced to formulate a global response and indeed from the intro I get the impression the aliens are taking advantage of or at least benefiting from the Earth's politically divided capability to respond because although the UN is pretty much in charge, military actions still come down to the political power blocks and if they had been observing us for any length of time then they would know with our backs against the wall, the reality is that we are quite likely to turn on each other when the going gets tough.

Keeping Phalanx a secret would delay the aliens in looking for Phalanx bases in terms of being a unified response rather than just being better than most at responding

Offline TrashMan

  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 833
    • View Profile
Re: storyline question: Why is phalanx a secret organization?
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2012, 10:06:33 pm »
How do you tell apart phalanx from normal military?
What patterns are you looking for?
Human activity and background norms is not something aliens would know much about to begin with.
Why would Phalanx be a higher priority then any of the regular militaries, given how far larger they are?

And again, civies knowing about Phalanx doesn't mean aliens would know anything. They are alines.
the reality is that Phalanx being secret or not would have 0 impact on the aliens.

Offline Nutter

  • Squad Leader
  • ****
  • Posts: 223
    • View Profile
Re: storyline question: Why is phalanx a secret organization?
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2012, 11:35:57 pm »
What patterns are you looking for?

Equipment, training, behaviour, doctrine...

And again, civies knowing about Phalanx doesn't mean aliens would know anything. They are alines.

Aliens that are, most probably, capable of intercepting, decoding and translating our communications. And when civies know, the whole world knows, when the whole world knows, the whole world talks and when the whole world talks, everyone listening in on the talks hears.
They've probably been planning this. Which very much means they had the time to figure out our language.
The rest is mathematics.

Offline TrashMan

  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 833
    • View Profile
Re: storyline question: Why is phalanx a secret organization?
« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2012, 12:25:37 am »
Equipment, training, behaviour, doctrine...

Aliens that are, most probably, capable of intercepting, decoding and translating our communications. And when civies know, the whole world knows, when the whole world knows, the whole world talks and when the whole world talks, everyone listening in on the talks hears.
They've probably been planning this. Which very much means they had the time to figure out our language.
The rest is mathematics.

How the hell would they know the behavior and training of Phalanx? First of all, phalanx tends to not leave survivors to report back.
Secondly the alines don't have a global coverage of Earth. Heck, even the biggest intel agencies on the planet, who can have actuial spies, have a hard time doing their job.

Thirdly, the entire world knows about Delta Force. But we don't know nothing really. Nothing of any military use anyway.

4th, there will be many military forces and organizations fighting alines. Most raf bigger and better funded. Why would they focus on Phalanx?

5th, knowledge of Phalanxes existence itself is meaningless. If the aliens are inteligent, they already know there will be forces opposing them. So in essence, Phalanxes name would only be confirmation of something they already knew.


Offline headdie

  • Squad Leader
  • ****
  • Posts: 119
    • View Profile
Re: storyline question: Why is phalanx a secret organization?
« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2012, 01:59:04 am »
How the hell would they know the behavior and training of Phalanx? First of all, phalanx tends to not leave survivors to report back.
Secondly the alines don't have a global coverage of Earth. Heck, even the biggest intel agencies on the planet, who can have actuial spies, have a hard time doing their job.

There is a time lag between the aliens starting the offensive and Phalanx starting operations, this gives the aliens a set of base data on Earth's performance, which overall is woeful, then as Phalanx starts up there is a small increase in Earth wins, now there are 3 likely explanations in this.

1. This is just a blip in the statistical data (Best Case Scenario) Do Nothing
2. Earth's defenders are picking up their game (Most Likely) Deploy better equipment and hit sites of frequent activity (which is what we see)
3. Earth has 1 or more dedicated teams to the problem (Good Probability) Take them out before they become a problem

Tbh we only see option 2 really come into play in the early game, base attacks happen but we only see when players get sloppy or desperate with their craft launches and follow up attacks dont happen quickly suggesting they are attacks of opportunity rather than a serious attempt to take out the organisation.

Also you dont need spies or a global spy sat network, just the capability to observe the unfolding fight and a satellite phone.  the sat phone provides ground to orbit comms with the fire team and a space craft with downward looking cameras or other sensors that make sense lets you watch enemy movements and most of what equipment they are deploying, the sat phone gives the fire team the ability to relay their own observations in real time so even if the mission is lost you still get all the needed data

Quote
Thirdly, the entire world knows about Delta Force. But we don't know nothing really. Nothing of any military use anyway.
Code: [Select]
Active 21 November 1977 – present
Country United States of America
Branch United States Army
Type Special Operations
Role Tier One Special Operations Force
Size Classified[1]
Part of U.S. Special Operations Command
 Joint Special Operations Command
 U.S. Army Special Operations Command
Garrison/HQ Fort Bragg, North Carolina
Nickname The Unit
Motto Surprise, Speed, Success
you can do similar searches on most spec ops groups and find probably locations, combine this data with google maps and you have a target, might not be the right target but worth a try.  Phalanx cant afford this in the early days as unlike groups like delta who would just relocates to the most convenient US base, Phalanx does not have this option from what i can tell. and some numpty will wiki the info if they find it, if not wikipedia then the incarnation of wikileaks that exists then.

Quote
4th, there will be many military forces and organizations fighting alines. Most raf bigger and better funded. Why would they focus on Phalanx?
Phalanx seems to be effective where the others are not.  remember each individual power block is also trying to respond by themselves so will have these groups in place.

Quote
5th, knowledge of Phalanxes existence itself is meaningless. If the aliens are inteligent, they already know there will be forces opposing them. So in essence, Phalanxes name would only be confirmation of something they already knew.

there is a huge difference between know and there probably is, you can commit to something you know, it is a lot harder to justify personnel, equipment and time to something you that might be the case, knowing something gives you something to find, suspecting something then all you are doing is guessing and it might not pan out that way, sure you keep your eyes open but you are better keeping the bulk of your resources to the known enemy and leave options open to deal with a potential higher calibre of threat

Offline ShipIt

  • Project Artist
  • Captain
  • ***
  • Posts: 906
    • View Profile
Re: storyline question: Why is phalanx a secret organization?
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2012, 10:41:33 am »
Secret or not, the aliens won´t care anyway. To reach their goal they do not need to fight and defeat military resistance.

Offline headdie

  • Squad Leader
  • ****
  • Posts: 119
    • View Profile
Re: storyline question: Why is phalanx a secret organization?
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2012, 12:01:02 pm »
and yet there is military resistance and little political desire for a surrender.  That political will is due to Earth's military putting up resistance, defeat the military and the political will for a surrender is there, unless the politicians willingly surrender the people will fight back, thus a military solution is the best bet for both sides

Offline Nutter

  • Squad Leader
  • ****
  • Posts: 223
    • View Profile
Re: storyline question: Why is phalanx a secret organization?
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2012, 12:46:52 pm »
How the hell would they know the behavior and training of Phalanx? First of all, phalanx tends to not leave survivors to report back.
They don't have to know how Phalanx behaves, they just have to review all engagements where the behaviour of the defending troops deviated from that of regional troops. Then you just check which of these are acting in the same or at least similair manner and boom, you now know where your troops engaged a force that, for some reason went unobserved during intial preparations.
Possible explanations: Sloppy preparations, dedicated response force formed after initial assaults, some other stuff I don't feel like thinking of right now.

Quote
First of all, phalanx tends to not leave survivors to report back.

That's probably because you savescum your fights untill you win.
Not to mention they're probably either in at least rudimentary contact or observing the engagement from orbit. Maybe even preparing a rescue. Which, kind of gives me an idea for a mission.


The rest (and most of this too) was already adressed by headdie anyway.

Offline TrashMan

  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 833
    • View Profile
Re: storyline question: Why is phalanx a secret organization?
« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2012, 03:32:41 pm »
1. This is just a blip in the statistical data (Best Case Scenario) Do Nothing
2. Earth's defenders are picking up their game (Most Likely) Deploy better equipment and hit sites of frequent activity (which is what we see)
3. Earth has 1 or more dedicated teams to the problem (Good Probability) Take them out before they become a problem

Tbh we only see option 2 really come into play in the early game, base attacks happen but we only see when players get sloppy or desperate with their craft launches and follow up attacks dont happen quickly suggesting they are attacks of opportunity rather than a serious attempt to take out the organisation.

Also you dont need spies or a global spy sat network, just the capability to observe the unfolding fight and a satellite phone.  the sat phone provides ground to orbit comms with the fire team and a space craft with downward looking cameras or other sensors that make sense lets you watch enemy movements and most of what equipment they are deploying, the sat phone gives the fire team the ability to relay their own observations in real time so even if the mission is lost you still get all the needed data

Dedicated team? The entire planets military is dedicated. The "movements" during a mission will tell you nothing. The equipment will also tell you little, given Phalanx shares equipment with the rest of the Earth (and especially at the begining)




Quote
you can do similar searches on most spec ops groups and find probably locations, combine this data with google maps and you have a target, might not be the right target but worth a try.  Phalanx cant afford this in the early days as unlike groups like delta who would just relocates to the most convenient US base, Phalanx does not have this option from what i can tell. and some numpty will wiki the info if they find it, if not wikipedia then the incarnation of wikileaks that exists then.

Yeah, and the location of Phalanx base wont pop up on any search. So?
The base is a secret. Their existance isn't.
You dont' know who they are, where they live - just that they are there.


Quote
Phalanx seems to be effective where the others are not.  remember each individual power block is also trying to respond by themselves so will have these groups in place.[/qutoe]

That entirely depends. Realisticly speaking, the military should have plenty of sucesses if phalanx can with a 8-man team. And the alines would have a hard time telling themapart. Even they can, the militaries are still bigger, packing a lot more hardware.


Offline TrashMan

  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 833
    • View Profile
Re: storyline question: Why is phalanx a secret organization?
« Reply #25 on: May 13, 2012, 03:35:42 pm »
They don't have to know how Phalanx behaves, they just have to review all engagements where the behaviour of the defending troops deviated from that of regional troops. Then you just check which of these are acting in the same or at least similair manner and boom, you now know where your troops engaged a force that, for some reason went unobserved during intial preparations.
Possible explanations: Sloppy preparations, dedicated response force formed after initial assaults, some other stuff I don't feel like thinking of right now.

What behavior are you talking about? All military forces (phalanx inluded) have standard military training.
Just how different do you expect Phalanx soldeirs to behave? And you think they would, do you think that every local unit will act the same?

Offline headdie

  • Squad Leader
  • ****
  • Posts: 119
    • View Profile
Re: storyline question: Why is phalanx a secret organization?
« Reply #26 on: May 13, 2012, 04:18:53 pm »
What behavior are you talking about? All military forces (phalanx inluded) have standard military training.
Just how different do you expect Phalanx soldeirs to behave? And you think they would, do you think that every local unit will act the same?

If that is so then why do different national militaries cross train?

A:  different nations do things in different ways, battlefield experience shapes each force depending on what happens and how it is interpreted.

Different movements are the result of differing tactics, for example once force will use off battlefield support more than another who will prefer flanking manoeuvres from more self sufficient units.  Some will prefer to employ UGVs or UAV/UCAVs, all this type of stuff forms signature activities and while we might work to mask that signature they are human nature and will show through in detailed analysis.

For equipment, Phalanx draws from only the most successful, due to it's remit it cannot risk using anything less.  Power blocks will on the other hand will favour cost effective equipment which strangely enough is not quite the same, for example

missile 1 has an accuracy of 80% and a range of 100 miles at £1,000,000 per unit
missile 2 has an accuracy of 78% and a range of 95 miles at 75,000 per unit

Phalanx has to go for number 1 because the superior performance is vital
National Military would be more likely to go for missile 2 because although its performance is slightly inferior its cost per unit is vastly better and they have better infrastructure to mass launch

Quote
Yeah, and the location of Phalanx base wont pop up on any search. So?
The base is a secret. Their existance isn't.
You dont' know who they are, where they live - just that they are there.

The public cant write about something they don't know about, liek with the aliens they can guess but that is all it is.

Quote

Phalanx seems to be effective where the others are not.  remember each individual power block is also trying to respond by themselves so will have these groups in place.[/qutoe]

That entirely depends. Realisticly speaking, the military should have plenty of sucesses if phalanx can with a 8-man team. And the alines would have a hard time telling themapart. Even they can, the militaries are still bigger, packing a lot more hardware.

Phalanx is set up specifically to deal with the alien threat with using the top percentage of the worlds soldiers with the best equipment available.  I covered the equipment issue above so i will focus here on the soldiers. For starters in a military response outside of special forces means you have a mix of abilities ranging from those who could be SF is they wanted to (very small number) to the freshly passed out and the barely able to keep the needed pace, this promotes casulties and loss of moral.  Also being part of an elite group sets up a certain mind set, you dont do something because you have to you do it because that is what you should be doing, because it could help.  Knowing you are at the sharp end promotes tactical innovation and as sense of community and understanding on what your fellow soldier is likely to be doing. 

Basically a well applied small unit can cause more problems for the enemy than an battalion of front line troops.  The battalion is best placed to hold the line and grind to a victory, this is not the type of warfare the aliens are presenting, they are presenting a warfare of small unit vs small unit which is why Phalanx is doing better.

Offline TrashMan

  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 833
    • View Profile
Re: storyline question: Why is phalanx a secret organization?
« Reply #27 on: May 13, 2012, 05:23:32 pm »
No.
Different movements and tactics are not so big and distinctive that you can tell at a glance if the troops are US or russian or whatever. Even if you could - it's a big world, wiht a whole LOT of diferent groupsand division even within one country. Do SEALs and Rangers act the same? How about marines? Regular army? Green Beres? Etc, etc.. All US troops. Does the 1st paratrooper act the same as the 404th paratrooper?
The alines would have a hard tiem telling trooops from different countries apart behavior-wise, let alone being able to single out a single small organization in between hunderds.

And equipment wise, there are many, many differnet SpecOps units, and all use top-notch equipment. And considering many operate all over the wrold, telling them apart from Phalanx is gonna be next to impossible. Especially since Pahalnx uses pretty normal equipment. Effective does not equal expensive and rare. Most of the weaponry is pretty normal according to the descriptions.
And even if it weren't, how easy it is to tell them apart? So many rifels and weapons are similar in apperance and performance that they can confuse even us, let alone aliens.
That's of course, if the aliens even bother doing any of the things you mention (and if they are even capable of telling two different missiles apart while under fire).


Quote
The public cant write about something they don't know about, like with the aliens they can guess but that is all it is.

In which case the aliens will be fed a whole lot of misinformation since peopel will talk smack, which can only be good.



You and I will just have to agree to disagree.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2012, 06:42:58 pm by TrashMan »

Offline headdie

  • Squad Leader
  • ****
  • Posts: 119
    • View Profile
Re: storyline question: Why is phalanx a secret organization?
« Reply #28 on: May 13, 2012, 06:16:16 pm »
You and I will just have to agree to disagree.

I would have to agree there :D

Offline Flying Steel

  • Rookie
  • ***
  • Posts: 99
    • View Profile
Re: storyline question: Why is phalanx a secret organization?
« Reply #29 on: May 13, 2012, 08:04:22 pm »
missile 1 has an accuracy of 80% and a range of 100 miles at £1,000,000 per unit
missile 2 has an accuracy of 78% and a range of 95 miles at 75,000 per unit

Phalanx has to go for number 1 because the superior performance is vital
National Military would be more likely to go for missile 2 because although its performance is slightly inferior its cost per unit is vastly better and they have better infrastructure to mass launch

This makes no sense, if in game I was allowed to buy and deploy option 2, I would totally spam that SAM all over the globe and the UFOs would be failing from the sky like rain.

I feel that this and the phalanx being super secret thing, and how its squad of eight soldiers that take so many hours to deploy are the ONLY counter to the alien attacks... all of these unbelievable elements are part of the same problem. That problem is the plot seems to favor hyping up Phalanx to be hollywood-style-cool so that the player feels important in his power fantasy, instead of giving it a realistic and believable role that does no harm to the game-play and potentially improves it.

Realistically speaking it only makes sense for Phalanx to be completely research-driven. There is nothing much destruction-wise that 8 soldiers flown in via scram-jet can do that 800 local soldiers couldn't. Especially since the latter has the advantage of heavy equipment like a couple dozen AFVs and attack aircraft. But the advantage to the lighter touch could be in capturing biological and technological specimens and bringing them back to isolated facilities for investigation. As well as conducting small scale field testing of new weapon systems on the threat, so that national militaries can adopt the winning systems on a large scale in preparation for a feared invasion.