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Author Topic: IR-goggles  (Read 12283 times)

Offline homunculus

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IR-goggles
« on: March 22, 2012, 11:56:33 am »
Replacement of IR-goggles with a more vague detection device.

Currently IR-goggles lets the player see through walls, at quite a distance.
This makes weapons that can shoot through walls with impunity (without alien retaliation) extremely useful, but in my opinion, also fun-breaking.
In turn, if this is supposed to change in the future, weapon balancing while keeping the current IR-goggles is unlikely to produce best results.

I suggest that IR-goggles be kept primarily for night vision, rather than such all-powerful see-through-walls device.
Instead, there could be a device that would measure distance from aliens as a number.
As if aliens were "invisible light sources", and displaying how much of this "invisible light" there is on the device.
And player could then try to do something like triangulating to find the last hiding alien that might be tedious to search for otherwise (hopefully the "beeline" level of alien aggressiveness will also get reduced).
Maybe it could be based on some brain gland from alien autopsy that responds to other live aliens' presence, motivating early alien research as a side effect.
In this game, some slightly grotesque fantasy of carrying around a measurement device attached to a vial with a piece of alien brain in a physiological solution, would be according to the style guidelines, right? (at least it seemed to be a few years ago)

Offline H-Hour

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Re: IR-goggles
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2012, 12:27:21 pm »
I agree that IR-goggles are like a story-driven cheat code. They wipe out a whole category of battlescape experiences and are not fun. I never use them. Boo ir-goggles. Boo.

(Even though from the reality-driven standpoint of the story, it is hard to justify why such technology, already in use today, is not available to Phalanx. I am still in favor of this being a gameplay-over-reality decision, though.)

Offline homunculus

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Re: IR-goggles
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2012, 02:50:27 am »
ok, let's forget the 'clearing out most of the mines from above ground with ir-goggles and sniper rifle', but looking at things like this video, it doesn't look like anything close to the 'see through walls' capabilities of ufo:ai ir-goggles.
in fact, it does not look like you could see through walls with such thing at all.
and watching this one seems to confirm it.
it seems i have some good news: there is no need to worry about this tech being already available today.

or, am i looking at wrong kind of videos?
those two seemed as trustworthy as i could get.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 03:02:26 am by homunculus »

Offline H-Hour

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Re: IR-goggles
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2012, 09:40:07 am »
You're looking at night vision goggles, which just amplify the light. But I think you're right that there are no goggle-like application of see-through technology. It's still very much on the horizon if not already in use at certain scales that are not applicable on the battlefield yet. There's also this, which is slightly different but could lead to more sophisticated applications.

Offline homunculus

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Re: IR-goggles
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2012, 01:16:17 pm »
You're looking at night vision goggles, which just amplify the light. [...]
btw, the second video was neither goggles nor was it just amplifying light, and still "they cannot see through anything".
if ever such technology would be invented, i very much doubt it would be based on ir.

Offline DarkRain

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Re: IR-goggles
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2012, 05:52:57 pm »
Just FYI Night Vision versus Thermal Imaging and no they can't see through walls or even clothing, but Thermal Imaging seems to be able to see through smoke and plants?

Anyway even assuming that by 2084 night vision and thermal imaging technologies are much more advanced than today, currently IR googles are still too much powerful, more than intended actually:
Quote from: Cdr. Paul Navarre
These goggles pick up all infrared emissions in the area and display them on the inside of the lenses. They can be easily worn for the duration of a nighttime engagement, greatly extending a soldier's visual range in the darkness and allowing him to see targets through thin walls. Thick walls present a greater obstacle and may obscure targets inside entirely. Of course, there is no way to distinguish between the IR signatures of civilians and those of aliens whenever we do not have direct line of sight. Any readings taken through walls or other obstacles will not be conclusive.

First they are only supposed to see through thin walls, (and I think one can assume that only at a short distance)

Second you are not supposed to be able to even distinguish friend or foe from such through wall contacts, much less have complete information about the subject in question.

Maybe implementing them as planned would balance them more.

Offline homunculus

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Re: IR-goggles
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2012, 04:32:58 pm »
Just FYI Night Vision versus Thermal Imaging and no they can't see through walls or even clothing, but Thermal Imaging seems to be able to see through smoke and plants?[...]
taking another look at the exact comparison spot in the video, to me it looks like it does not see through leaves.
the human was just hidden in the shadow and was not visible because of the contrast of the more brightly lit leaves around him, but there were no leaves between the human and the viewer that became transparent in ir.
when the human starts moving it should be especially apparent that ir doesn't see through leaves.
if anything, it rather illustrates that ir cannot even see through leaves, why should we be talking about walls here?

how thin would the wall need to be to feel the heat of the person in the next room on your cheek?
and could you focus the heat so that you could get an image of the person moving?
it is just heat, not x-ray, and to me this discussion starts to sound like 'desperately trying to prove that bricks are soft'.

one of the reasons they use red light for alerts is because low frequency light disperses less in fog than blue light.
ir just disperses even less in fog or smoke than red light.
that probably depends on the size of the smoke particles, or something like that.

even considered that when you walk at night, and someone is, say, round the corner, holding a lit lantern, you can see the light from the lantern on the surroundings even if you do not directly see the person behind the corner.
now, warm objects could act like a light source in ir, like holding a lantern that is only visible in ir.
but i do not seem to notice that effect in the videos, so i am afraid it wouldn't even work that way.

Offline DarkRain

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Re: IR-goggles
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2012, 06:43:36 pm »
taking another look at the exact comparison spot in the video, to me it looks like it does not see through leaves.
Hmm... taking a closer look it seems you are right.

Anyway that's not the point I'm trying to convey here:
Anyway even assuming that by 2084 night vision and thermal imaging technologies are much more advanced than today[...]
^^
Read that as "even assuming that by 2084 see-through-walls technologies are a reality" if you like.
The point I was trying to make with the quote from UFOpaedia, in my previous post is that IR googles are way more powerful than described, and that if they were implemented to match the description they might not be so unbalancing. But that would probably have to wait for the visibility system to be implemented.

Whether the underling tech is IR or something else is problem of the writers :P

Offline homunculus

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Re: IR-goggles
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2012, 06:47:00 pm »
[...]"even assuming that by 2084 see-through-walls technologies are a reality"[...]
that sounds much better : )))

i mean, it seems that the data is not there in the ir.
or maybe it is, as everything in the universe is supposed to be inter-related ; ))
being evil, i would rather put it this way: 'even assuming that by 2084 we can calculate the see-through image from the song of the bird'.

didn't douglas adams write about projecting the universe from a cookie?
by 2094 we can probably also do that.

anyway, i shouldn't be writing about how see-through tech could be possible, because the tech is bad for gameplay imho.
i should be trying to reason how it shouldn't be possible, otherwise i would be arguing against my own suggestion.

hitch-22

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Re: IR-goggles
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2012, 12:17:08 am »
Yeah, overpowered and to some degree fun-breaking, although I do have to say I love how it eliminates scouring every corner for that last alien which can be a total bitch if it happens repeatedly. (Maybe there could be a mission timer of some sort where "the last alien got away" if it was unseen by round 25 in applicable mission types)?

"Realistically" speaking, thermal imaging or indeed any such detection methods should have serious limitations. Imaging through the near-impenetrable hull of an alien spacecraft? The hull that tolerates atmospheric entry, not to mention our best laser weapons and rocket barrages for quite some time leaks heat radiation (or whatever it's supposed to be) to such a degree you get an exact image of the aliens? Hmm..

But I agree, "realism" should take a backseat to gameplay fun, just as practically always.

Nokim

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Re: IR-goggles
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2012, 01:37:49 am »
Scanning (or detection) has good implementation in UFO:Aftermath. In case of detection without clear sight question sign was shown in supposed place.

Seeing throw walls is possible but not with IR. Nowadays many researchers are studying 1THz radiowaves for that. Also there is technique to see using passive radar as detector of deflected signal and several WiFi access point as signal source (or any other sourse, WiFi useful for cops ;)). Also there is similar device for search alive humans under fallen buildings after earthquake - by detecting signal change due to heartbeat. Also there are several reports about reconstructing image from behind corner using scattered light.

So, we just can say that our IR-goggles in fact use that all. However strange that soldier have to use TU for that every turn. More naturally whould be use TUs to switch on and off. On - means seeing throw walls but short distance, off - normal vision maybe a bit improved compared to soldier without them.

Offline kurja

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Re: IR-goggles
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2012, 08:22:57 am »
personally, I'd prefer a detection device that would just give me an approximate distance and direction.

Nokim

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Re: IR-goggles
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2012, 09:56:08 am »
personally, I'd prefer a detection device that would just give me an approximate distance and direction.
But covering entire map? ;)

Interesting motion scanner was in X-Com:Apocalypse, specially if you are playing in real-time. Just move a bit and you see map of surrounding area (naturally - it moved relative to you). Flying unit with such scanner could easily patrol map and find any moving target.

I prefer more different devices and detection techniques. Good example was UFO:Aftermath - you can see, hear, see unclear (i.e. in smoke), sense via psi or use scanner. All except of clear sight give inaccurate info and marks target with question sign. So implementing visibility system it worth to have that on mind.

Offline Wh1sper

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Re: IR-goggles
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2012, 11:57:21 am »
Because we are in a futuristic game I would prefer a not already existing system.
The Idea with triangular measuring system could be worth of thinking.
How about an Alien detecting device with require 3 Soldiers to manage.
One Soldier with the main Device requiring space like a heavy weapon and two Soldiers with simple small triangle receiving devices.
the target recognition may depend on how far the soldiers stands in opposite to the target and how  perfect the triangle is to a right angle.
This device should be appear as a research item after examining 2 or three aliens so the scientists can elaborate an method to discover aliens throug far distance an walls.
Maybe not an IR devices but an Omega-Ray device, because the aliens are sending out a small radiation.
just my two cents.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2012, 12:17:33 pm by Wh1sper »

Offline Triaxx2

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Re: IR-goggles
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2012, 06:29:59 pm »
Perhaps something like showing everything living, but as indistinguishable boxes. Keeps it from being a magic foe finder, but lets you see: Room Empty, Room Full. So you don't have to individually search each room, which is particularly annoying on maps like the Med, and the Manor.