UFO:Alien Invasion
Technical support => Feature Requests => Topic started by: homunculus on March 22, 2012, 11:56:33 am
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Replacement of IR-goggles with a more vague detection device.
Currently IR-goggles lets the player see through walls, at quite a distance.
This makes weapons that can shoot through walls with impunity (without alien retaliation) extremely useful, but in my opinion, also fun-breaking.
In turn, if this is supposed to change in the future, weapon balancing while keeping the current IR-goggles is unlikely to produce best results.
I suggest that IR-goggles be kept primarily for night vision, rather than such all-powerful see-through-walls device.
Instead, there could be a device that would measure distance from aliens as a number.
As if aliens were "invisible light sources", and displaying how much of this "invisible light" there is on the device.
And player could then try to do something like triangulating to find the last hiding alien that might be tedious to search for otherwise (hopefully the "beeline" level of alien aggressiveness will also get reduced).
Maybe it could be based on some brain gland from alien autopsy that responds to other live aliens' presence, motivating early alien research as a side effect.
In this game, some slightly grotesque fantasy of carrying around a measurement device attached to a vial with a piece of alien brain in a physiological solution, would be according to the style guidelines, right? (at least it seemed to be a few years ago)
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I agree that IR-goggles are like a story-driven cheat code. They wipe out a whole category of battlescape experiences and are not fun. I never use them. Boo ir-goggles. Boo.
(Even though from the reality-driven standpoint of the story, it is hard to justify why such technology, already in use today, is not available to Phalanx. I am still in favor of this being a gameplay-over-reality decision, though.)
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ok, let's forget the 'clearing out most of the mines from above ground with ir-goggles and sniper rifle', but looking at things like this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivZ6K_yFUNo), it doesn't look like anything close to the 'see through walls' capabilities of ufo:ai ir-goggles.
in fact, it does not look like you could see through walls with such thing at all.
and watching this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sudf5xDIhmM) seems to confirm it.
it seems i have some good news: there is no need to worry about this tech being already available today.
or, am i looking at wrong kind of videos?
those two seemed as trustworthy as i could get.
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You're looking at night vision goggles, which just amplify the light. But I think you're right that there are no goggle-like application of see-through technology. It's still very much on the horizon (http://news.cnet.com/8301-13639_3-10215117-42.html) if not already in use at certain scales that are not applicable on the battlefield yet. There's also this (http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010/02/darpas-plan-for-world-domination-map-entire-planets-underground/), which is slightly different but could lead to more sophisticated applications.
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You're looking at night vision goggles, which just amplify the light. [...]
btw, the second video was neither goggles nor was it just amplifying light, and still "they cannot see through anything".
if ever such technology would be invented, i very much doubt it would be based on ir.
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Just FYI Night Vision versus Thermal Imaging (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAvnMYqj2c0&feature=related) and no they can't see through walls or even clothing, but Thermal Imaging seems to be able to see through smoke and plants?
Anyway even assuming that by 2084 night vision and thermal imaging technologies are much more advanced than today, currently IR googles are still too much powerful, more than intended actually:
These goggles pick up all infrared emissions in the area and display them on the inside of the lenses. They can be easily worn for the duration of a nighttime engagement, greatly extending a soldier's visual range in the darkness and allowing him to see targets through thin walls. Thick walls present a greater obstacle and may obscure targets inside entirely. Of course, there is no way to distinguish between the IR signatures of civilians and those of aliens whenever we do not have direct line of sight. Any readings taken through walls or other obstacles will not be conclusive.
First they are only supposed to see through thin walls, (and I think one can assume that only at a short distance)
Second you are not supposed to be able to even distinguish friend or foe from such through wall contacts, much less have complete information about the subject in question.
Maybe implementing them as planned would balance them more.
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Just FYI Night Vision versus Thermal Imaging (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAvnMYqj2c0&feature=related) and no they can't see through walls or even clothing, but Thermal Imaging seems to be able to see through smoke and plants?[...]
taking another look at the exact comparison spot in the video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAvnMYqj2c0&t=43s), to me it looks like it does not see through leaves.
the human was just hidden in the shadow and was not visible because of the contrast of the more brightly lit leaves around him, but there were no leaves between the human and the viewer that became transparent in ir.
when the human starts moving it should be especially apparent that ir doesn't see through leaves.
if anything, it rather illustrates that ir cannot even see through leaves, why should we be talking about walls here?
how thin would the wall need to be to feel the heat of the person in the next room on your cheek?
and could you focus the heat so that you could get an image of the person moving?
it is just heat, not x-ray, and to me this discussion starts to sound like 'desperately trying to prove that bricks are soft'.
one of the reasons they use red light for alerts is because low frequency light disperses less in fog than blue light.
ir just disperses even less in fog or smoke than red light.
that probably depends on the size of the smoke particles, or something like that.
even considered that when you walk at night, and someone is, say, round the corner, holding a lit lantern, you can see the light from the lantern on the surroundings even if you do not directly see the person behind the corner.
now, warm objects could act like a light source in ir, like holding a lantern that is only visible in ir.
but i do not seem to notice that effect in the videos, so i am afraid it wouldn't even work that way.
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taking another look at the exact comparison spot in the video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAvnMYqj2c0&t=43s), to me it looks like it does not see through leaves.
Hmm... taking a closer look it seems you are right.
Anyway that's not the point I'm trying to convey here:
Anyway even assuming that by 2084 night vision and thermal imaging technologies are much more advanced than today[...]
^^
Read that as "even assuming that by 2084 see-through-walls technologies are a reality" if you like.
The point I was trying to make with the quote from UFOpaedia, in my previous post is that IR googles are way more powerful than described, and that if they were implemented to match the description they might not be so unbalancing. But that would probably have to wait for the visibility system to be implemented.
Whether the underling tech is IR or something else is problem of the writers :P
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[...]"even assuming that by 2084 see-through-walls technologies are a reality"[...]
that sounds much better : )))
i mean, it seems that the data is not there in the ir.
or maybe it is, as everything in the universe is supposed to be inter-related ; ))
being evil, i would rather put it this way: 'even assuming that by 2084 we can calculate the see-through image from the song of the bird'.
didn't douglas adams write about projecting the universe from a cookie?
by 2094 we can probably also do that.
anyway, i shouldn't be writing about how see-through tech could be possible, because the tech is bad for gameplay imho.
i should be trying to reason how it shouldn't be possible, otherwise i would be arguing against my own suggestion.
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Yeah, overpowered and to some degree fun-breaking, although I do have to say I love how it eliminates scouring every corner for that last alien which can be a total bitch if it happens repeatedly. (Maybe there could be a mission timer of some sort where "the last alien got away" if it was unseen by round 25 in applicable mission types)?
"Realistically" speaking, thermal imaging or indeed any such detection methods should have serious limitations. Imaging through the near-impenetrable hull of an alien spacecraft? The hull that tolerates atmospheric entry, not to mention our best laser weapons and rocket barrages for quite some time leaks heat radiation (or whatever it's supposed to be) to such a degree you get an exact image of the aliens? Hmm..
But I agree, "realism" should take a backseat to gameplay fun, just as practically always.
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Scanning (or detection) has good implementation in UFO:Aftermath. In case of detection without clear sight question sign was shown in supposed place.
Seeing throw walls is possible but not with IR. Nowadays many researchers are studying 1THz radiowaves for that. Also there is technique to see using passive radar as detector of deflected signal and several WiFi access point as signal source (or any other sourse, WiFi useful for cops ;)). Also there is similar device for search alive humans under fallen buildings after earthquake - by detecting signal change due to heartbeat. Also there are several reports about reconstructing image from behind corner using scattered light.
So, we just can say that our IR-goggles in fact use that all. However strange that soldier have to use TU for that every turn. More naturally whould be use TUs to switch on and off. On - means seeing throw walls but short distance, off - normal vision maybe a bit improved compared to soldier without them.
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personally, I'd prefer a detection device that would just give me an approximate distance and direction.
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personally, I'd prefer a detection device that would just give me an approximate distance and direction.
But covering entire map? ;)
Interesting motion scanner was in X-Com:Apocalypse, specially if you are playing in real-time. Just move a bit and you see map of surrounding area (naturally - it moved relative to you). Flying unit with such scanner could easily patrol map and find any moving target.
I prefer more different devices and detection techniques. Good example was UFO:Aftermath - you can see, hear, see unclear (i.e. in smoke), sense via psi or use scanner. All except of clear sight give inaccurate info and marks target with question sign. So implementing visibility system it worth to have that on mind.
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Because we are in a futuristic game I would prefer a not already existing system.
The Idea with triangular measuring system could be worth of thinking.
How about an Alien detecting device with require 3 Soldiers to manage.
One Soldier with the main Device requiring space like a heavy weapon and two Soldiers with simple small triangle receiving devices.
the target recognition may depend on how far the soldiers stands in opposite to the target and how perfect the triangle is to a right angle.
This device should be appear as a research item after examining 2 or three aliens so the scientists can elaborate an method to discover aliens throug far distance an walls.
Maybe not an IR devices but an Omega-Ray device, because the aliens are sending out a small radiation.
just my two cents.
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Perhaps something like showing everything living, but as indistinguishable boxes. Keeps it from being a magic foe finder, but lets you see: Room Empty, Room Full. So you don't have to individually search each room, which is particularly annoying on maps like the Med, and the Manor.
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How difficult would it be to do something where aliens only visible through a wall using goggles shows on the map as a fizzy general area, say a 3-5 (size perhaps dependent on range) circle which the Alien could be anywhere in that space (random off set from 0 to maximum radius). This way the player gets an idea where enemy aliens are without being able to snipe the alien based just on the IR goggles, obviously the player will then need to commit a soldiers to either spot the alien accurately for the wall penetrating shot or just kill the alien if it is an option. Basically the IR goggles retain their function in nasty situations but are no longer a "legal" kill cheat.
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Wouldn't help much. That's about the inaccuracy of grenades.
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but it would hamper shooting through walls and on the grenade front the difference between that area's accuracy and grenade accuracy would be the difference between kill and light/no damage (depending on armour)
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Hmm... True. Wouldn't bother flashbangs though, which are what I always throw, presuming I can get it through the bloody door...
Ahem. You're right, it would hamper shooting unless you just spam rounds through the wall.
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Yeah, overpowered and to some degree fun-breaking, although I do have to say I love how it eliminates scouring every corner for that last alien which can be a total bitch if it happens repeatedly. (Maybe there could be a mission timer of some sort where "the last alien got away" if it was unseen by round 25 in applicable mission types)?
This is a great idea. The aliens escaping should be in. If you can win with a few alien survivors it provides a way for imperfect victories. I would change it to if no alien is spotted for 5 turns the mission ends, maybe even just 2 turns. I really hate wandering around the map looking for the last alien!
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i lke this idea, too - will put it onto my todo list.
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Original X-Com handled the last alien in a different way: after about 10 turns of being alone and hidden it would go berserk and start shooting around at random, with forced visibility of him. There was a bug though, which prevented it for later enemies :(
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this is implemented now - if we wanna tweak this, patches are welcome. currently the match will end in a draw if no ai player got visible in within 20 rounds. there is a cvar g_lastseen to controll this threshold.
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This is fine for now, especially with the threshold so high (it could probably be at 10 turns and still not be a huge incentive for camping). However, it will need to be reconsidered when we get a defensive ai. The way x-com handled it (aliens quitting their patrol routes after * turns) would probably be better whenever the ai stops rushing the player.
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(being aware of how unlikely such thing is to happen) did a little sketch for an alien detector (attached).
the idea is that some scientist measured nerve signals in alien brain, and discovered that it responds to other alien's presence.
so, the device has a piece of alien brain inside a vial with nutrient solution that keeps it functional.
a live alien could be a component needed to manufacture the detector (or alternatively, to "recharge" it before battle, but that might get complicated and increase micromanagement).
detects aliens as a number, which is sum of alien max health points divided by distance.
so the player can no longer see through walls, but gets "warmer-colder" type of hints about the location of aliens.
that would look like a (imho necessary) downgrade, but on the other hand it detects aliens all over the map, so no more running around with goggles looking for the last alien.
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Scanning (or detection) has good implementation in UFO:Aftermath. In case of detection without clear sight question sign was shown in supposed place.
Seeing throw walls is possible but not with IR. Nowadays many researchers are studying 1THz radiowaves for that. Also there is technique to see using passive radar as detector of deflected signal and several WiFi access point as signal source (or any other sourse, WiFi useful for cops ;)). Also there is similar device for search alive humans under fallen buildings after earthquake - by detecting signal change due to heartbeat. Also there are several reports about reconstructing image from behind corner using scattered light.
So, we just can say that our IR-goggles in fact use that all. However strange that soldier have to use TU for that every turn. More naturally whould be use TUs to switch on and off. On - means seeing throw walls but short distance, off - normal vision maybe a bit improved compared to soldier without them.
Alternatively, the goggles could use a sonar imaging device to "see" through walls. The denser they are or the further they are from you, the more inaccurate the scan gets and you might not pick the guy up. Or your device says it's 2 meters to the left of where it actually is. Naturally they can't tell you what exactly is on the other side, at least not from more than a couple of meters afar.
Or they could use an amalgation of all the techs to get a more varied scope of scans, and possibly better accuracy.
Ps. Long time no see, UFO:AI!
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10 years ago few people knew what google is, now we can't live without it. The game is set in 2084. That's 72 years from today. Infrared thermography today can pinpoint objects behind walls with complete accuracy. What is generally suggested in this thread is to make gear from the future perform worse than sonar did a hundred years ago.
I find having my best soldier - equipped in nanocomposite armor, with reaction fire enabled, hunting for that last alien - killed without even trying to fire back to be not-fun, and the IR goggles are a great way of preventing that. I like them the way the are (in today's head).
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[...]Infrared thermography today can pinpoint objects behind walls with complete accuracy.[...]
are you surprised that i am asking for reference?
and i hope you are also not surprised that i think the statement is completely worthless without a solid reference, because references about 'infrared thermography' seem to prove the contrary.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f2/Passivhaus_thermogram_gedaemmt_ungedaemmt.png/220px-Passivhaus_thermogram_gedaemmt_ungedaemmt.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f2/Passivhaus_thermogram_gedaemmt_ungedaemmt.png/220px-Passivhaus_thermogram_gedaemmt_ungedaemmt.png)
as for ir-goggles helping your soldier to not die to the last alien, i see that as 'boring and tedious solution is more effective', which is not a good thing.
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The one useful thing to do is park someone outside the alien craft, and hit the IR Goggles so you can see if that last alien is having pathing issues.
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Examples are abundant, I won't Google for you.
I don't know what you're quoting in the second paragraph nor can I comprehend it.
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Examples are abundant, I won't Google for you.
I don't know what you're quoting in the second paragraph nor can I comprehend it.
i get the impression that you cannot understand your own 'abundant' examples.
the examples are indeed abundant, but they are all contradicting what you claim.
it is not a quote, lol, it is one of the abundant examples.
it is a link to an image done with infrared thermography, showing that you cannot see though walls at all, not even a little bit.
btw, i got the impression that you might even not see very well through a glass window with ir.
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Charlie, I get the sense you are missing the point of this thread. The thread came about because we have/had the situation where you can IR goggle the map, find an alien through walls and then with the appropriate tech, snipe the alien through said wall which removes the skill and chance elements from the game. So we are exploring ways to allow a mechanic that can help the player locate aliens without giving them what is in effect a licence to cheat
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'boring and tedious solution is more effective'
That looks like a quote to me. If you're so liberal in your use of single quotation marks, don't be surprised people don't understand you. I did clearly write "second paragraph"... and that's a quote.
I do retract what I said about pinpointing objects through solids such as walls, it's not IR that does that.
headdie I see, either that's a new tech added since the last time I finished the game or I managed to miss it.
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For some ideas, see:
http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/100395-mit-can-now-see-through-concrete-walls (http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/100395-mit-can-now-see-through-concrete-walls)
http://www.popsci.com/technology/article/2012-07/seeing-through-walls-wireless-router (http://www.popsci.com/technology/article/2012-07/seeing-through-walls-wireless-router)
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[...] either that's a new tech added since the last time I finished the game or I managed to miss it.
'tis the sniper rifle.
1. go the side of a harvester.
2. ir-goggle the aliens that have gathered inside at the wall.
3. shoot the aliens with sniper rifle.
i have got the impression that shooting through the thin side wall of a harvester at a diagonal works better than at right angle.
one of the most hilarious cases is killing aliens with ir-goggles and sniper rifle from above the ground in the old mine map.
this is what i call 'boring and tedious', along with ir-goggling a large map to find an alien stuck somewhere, and unfortunately it is more effective than playing in a less boring way.
what is the challenge of shooting aliens through the wall of a harvester? i think the main challenge comes from suffering the boredom.
[...]I find having my best soldier - equipped in nanocomposite armor, with reaction fire enabled, hunting for that last alien - killed without even trying to fire back to be not-fun, and the IR goggles are a great way of preventing that. I like them the way the are (in today's head).
i see that as: you rather suffer the boredom than loose your soldier.
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What range do IR goggles currently have?
If I'm facing north when I click on them, and then I turn east, will they still uncover aliens behind walls to the east?
Do they work for more than 1 turn if clicked just once?
I did try using them many times but could never get them to work as in a video I saw on youtube - I'd have a few soldiers stand in front of walls and use them but nothing would show up, then during the aliens' turn they'd appear out of nowhere and kill me. Tried this a few times on a few maps.
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the ir-goggles used to be like weapons (in hand), and using them was like shooting, even with targeting and max range.
so, the effect is instantaneous, and reveals aliens that "get hit".
the range is bit more than flamethrower, as far as i remember, probably in the .ufo scripts somewhere.
so, when you use the goggles and turn around, the aliens will be visible only in the direction you were facing previously when you used the goggles. you need to use the goggles again after you turned around to see the aliens in the new direction.
the range is small enough and the scanned area is not clearly identifiable (some goggle applications will probably overlap if you need to be sure), so scanning a somewhat large map with tunnels and things can be quite confusing with "zillions" of applications of ir-goggles before you finally find the stuck aliens.
this is one of the problems i suggest to alleviate by giving more vague data about the sum of distances to aliens that lets you figure out the general 'warmer-colder' direction all over the map.
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The limitations on the IR googles seem appropriate and interesting. Since a combat round is only a few seconds spending 1/2 to 1/3 of that carefully scanning your field of vision with a device is reasonable. This might be a good area for a Perk type ability where a scout character could reduce that cost but overall I think it's a nice system.
Still we've got one headgear item. I can't see how introducing alternatives has to take away IR Googles. I would certainly take both along as the detector is of more use is larger areas while the googles are good for tight spaces with low visibility.
Also is there a density limitation on the googles? Like how coilguns can pierce a bit of wall but not thick concrete? Or is it purely range based?
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I admit, I'd love to have more head choices. At the moment it's IR, Armor, then I arrange the other things.
I'd love to be able to say, swap them out for goggles that enhance the hit chance depending on how many people have a sight line on the alien. So if the entire squad has them on, it's 8-16% increase in hit percent. Doesn't seem like much when it's applied to an Assault Rifle, but if it's applied to Rocket Launcher or crouching sniper making an aimed shot...
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More options are planned, but no solid plans exist. Almost certainly headgear will be used when we implement psionics. I've also considered some kind of accuracy-enhancing headgear (gun-mounted camera that feeds an image to panel in front of the eye for a special scope, for instance). But all these things require new capabilities programmed into the game so are not likely to happen soon.
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Hurry up then. Snipers need all the help they can get. ;)
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You know as silly as this sounds.. when I first started playing I thought IR-goggles were a one time use per mission item only. Perhaps adding ammo to them would allow them to remain a stable form of flushing out an enemy.. or not going in blind without allowing them to be used all the time. 1-2 uses would mean 8-16 uses per mission and in the missions where you really need them, subway, harvester ships, any mission with lots of tunnels, you tend to use them more.
You can justify it with the fact that no known power source can sustain that level of imaging more than 1 or 2 times while keeping the IR goggles lightweight enough for tactical use. Just my 2 cents on the matter.
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Does kinda figure if the modern version needs a truck that these would have limited power. Still at 12 TU to use and limited range I haven't felt they are terribly overpowered, it's just the lack of alternatives to compete in that slot.
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As of 2.5, the most useful map I've found is the one bunker map. Just for the sheer miscellany of tunnels and the tiny, tiny entry points.
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I still haven't managed to spot a single alien using IR goggles. I position guys around a UFO, use headgear, the charging sound plays but no aliens show. I do this about 4 times per turn using different soldiers, twice per soldier if enough TUs looking in different directions. Nothing. Click end turn. Aliens appear and kill me.
Please document the IR Goggles, explain how to use them, what the range and field of view is and how long the effect lasts.
Would be nice if some form of indicator was drawn over the tiles covered by the goggles.