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Author Topic: request: soldiers start out in same place  (Read 14664 times)

Offline BTAxis

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Re: request: soldiers start out in same place
« Reply #30 on: August 19, 2008, 04:54:14 pm »
We're thinking about letting players place security cameras in their bases that will reveal aliens in their line of sight. That, paired with an AI that doesn't make aliens hide all the time, should (hopefully) reduce this problem.

Sophisanmus

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Re: request: soldiers start out in same place
« Reply #31 on: August 19, 2008, 05:06:53 pm »
Could also implement a retreat mechanism, when almost defeated and the decision to cut losses and deny PHALANX (additional) prisoners, where aliens will attempt to return to their entry points and subsequently reach above-surface exit points where they leave the battlefield altogether.  Either that or a suicide/self-destruct function, where the alien will scuttle his equipment and then thoroughly off itself (for similar purposes to above), likely using plasma grenades or other nasty toys.

Offline TrashMan

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Re: request: soldiers start out in same place
« Reply #32 on: August 19, 2008, 07:03:18 pm »
We're thinking about letting players place security cameras in their bases that will reveal aliens in their line of sight. That, paired with an AI that doesn't make aliens hide all the time, should (hopefully) reduce this problem.

Why not just skip on the micromanagment and place cameras all over the place (as a high-tech  important base should have) by default?

Offline Mayhem

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Re: request: soldiers start out in same place
« Reply #33 on: August 19, 2008, 09:57:07 pm »
Why not just skip on the micromanagment and place cameras all over the place (as a high-tech  important base should have) by default?

Seconded.  Just make all aliens in base missions visible.  Ought to be some advantage for the home team, right?

Pile in enough aliens to make it a tough fight, and it becomes an exciting desperate battle instead of a tedious creep coerign every possible hidey hole looking for that one last alien.  Would give it a different feel and a faster pace than the usual missions.

Sophisanmus

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Re: request: soldiers start out in same place
« Reply #34 on: August 19, 2008, 10:31:27 pm »
But, to give the aliens a chance at catching the player off-guard, perhaps allow the cameras to be destroyed, directly by aliens or accidentally by a clumsy PHALANX soldier. 

Offline BTAxis

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Re: request: soldiers start out in same place
« Reply #35 on: August 19, 2008, 11:26:16 pm »
Seconded.  Just make all aliens in base missions visible.  Ought to be some advantage for the home team, right?

Maybe you've not been reading this thread very well, because so far the aliens are barely given half a chance. And just compensating with number isn't going to work, really.

Offline TrashMan

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Re: request: soldiers start out in same place
« Reply #36 on: August 19, 2008, 11:29:22 pm »
To catch the player of-guard, make them come from 2 directions...

pick 2 possible entrances into the base (randomly), blow up doors, throw in gas grenades (or just add some fire & smoke effects on that place) and start sending in waves upon waves of aliens.

And trust me, number make all the difference
*get mental image of the Dressen attack in Ja2 ... 120 soldiers vs. 6 Mercs + 24 milita....fun times, fun times *

Offline Mayhem

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Re: request: soldiers start out in same place
« Reply #37 on: August 20, 2008, 09:54:41 am »
Maybe you've not been reading this thread very well, because so far the aliens are barely given half a chance. And just compensating with number isn't going to work, really.

Wait, are these the same aliens who know exactly where we are at all times?

In addition, unlike the alines that drop onto farms to kidnap yokels and mutilate cattle, these are going to be aliens who know they are going into heavy fire.  They are expecting heavy resistance and so they should all be wearing medium or heavy armour.  There are only a few weapons available to the player that will garauntee a reaction-fire kill of a heavily armoured alien, and most can be fired once or twice at the most, so if large waves of aliens in heavy armour come pouring around the corner the player is going to be screwed if he is relying on reaction fire - especially if the aliens make forced entry into two locations.

Most missions are painstaking games of hide-and-seek - and over a large area, that can get pretty tedious.  I think that changing the pace for the base invasion missions would be a good thing, and add an air of desperation to the proceedings instead of the current miasma of drudgery.

***

And I have been reading this thread right from the start, and fail to see where abouts the aliens not being given half a chance comes in.  If you are talking about the shoot-downs prior to invasion, that's a concious choice by the player to dedicate resources to air defence.  Again it would be readily defeatable in most cases - the fluff text talks about UFOs escorting each other, and if a harvester and 2 fighters come flying in as a group its going to be very hard for most players to shoot them all down before they arrive...
« Last Edit: August 20, 2008, 09:58:50 am by Mayhem »

Offline BTAxis

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Re: request: soldiers start out in same place
« Reply #38 on: August 20, 2008, 10:07:50 am »
Wait, are these the same aliens who know exactly where we are at all times?

No. bobbens is writing a new AI that only knows what it can see.

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In addition, unlike the alines that drop onto farms to kidnap yokels and mutilate cattle, these are going to be aliens who know they are going into heavy fire.  They are expecting heavy resistance and so they should all be wearing medium or heavy armour.  There are only a few weapons available to the player that will garauntee a reaction-fire kill of a heavily armoured alien, and most can be fired once or twice at the most, so if large waves of aliens in heavy armour come pouring around the corner the player is going to be screwed if he is relying on reaction fire - especially if the aliens make forced entry into two locations.

Except with all the automatic defences, bottlenecks and fortified positions people are clamoring for. Then they'll die pretty fast, especially if they invade in only one general area and the player starts grouped at the get go. Remember that with the new base layout, there's only a 3x4 area of possible entry, as the 5x5 grid will be completely underground.

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Most missions are painstaking games of hide-and-seek - and over a large area, that can get pretty tedious.  I think that changing the pace for the base invasion missions would be a good thing, and add an air of desperation to the proceedings instead of the current miasma of drudgery.

I definitely agree that this should be avoided, but that isn't the same as "let's have a shoot out at the front door". Base missions are supposed to take place in various parts of the base, that's what the map tiles are for.

Offline TrashMan

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Re: request: soldiers start out in same place
« Reply #39 on: August 20, 2008, 11:07:05 am »
Number, number, numbers - I say again, keep spawning aliens.
It's a big factor.

Yea, you'll probably butcher the first wave...but by the second wave you have to start reloading weapons, thus loosing TU's...the law of numbers dictate that alien in big numbers will start scoring hits even with the most innacurate of all weapons...then you'll have to start pulling the wounded back and more aliens will come in. Pretty soon they'll have you on the run.

Offline Mayhem

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Re: request: soldiers start out in same place
« Reply #40 on: August 20, 2008, 12:41:07 pm »
Currently, the choke points are easy enough to set up because the aliens have only one ability - kill people.

But the future games, with the multi-level bases, the aliens will also be able to damage your base.  It will not be a question of sitting and waiting for them in the choke-point between their entry areas and the critical areas - unless you want them bashing your hangars to bits, sabotaging your missile defefences and radar, and firing up the weapons in your captured UFOs...

I therefore don't think that having the aliens completely visible in the base defence missions will be a problem, as long as there are enough alien teams about to make choosing what to defend a tough choice...

Offline BTAxis

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Re: request: soldiers start out in same place
« Reply #41 on: August 20, 2008, 02:29:34 pm »
But the future games, with the multi-level bases, the aliens will also be able to damage your base.  It will not be a question of sitting and waiting for them in the choke-point between their entry areas and the critical areas - unless you want them bashing your hangars to bits, sabotaging your missile defefences and radar, and firing up the weapons in your captured UFOs...

Now you're just making things up and using them as arguments. None of this is planned for now. Aliens can go for:
- The power plant
- Alien Containment
- The command centre
- Any landed craft

Until you hear otherwise from someone on the dev team, this isn't going to change.

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I therefore don't think that having the aliens completely visible in the base defence missions will be a problem, as long as there are enough alien teams about to make choosing what to defend a tough choice...

Since all the targets I listed above are on the sublevel (except craft), that means aliens will have to go through the Entrance, which makes that a singular choke point. Defending that would be tantamount to defending most strategic locations, and that's exactly the thing I'm opposed to.

Possibly, we could put the alien start position on the first two levels of the entrance (surface and first sublevel), so they can spread out right from the start. But I have to think about that one some more, because it could cause problems of its own.

Offline TrashMan

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Re: request: soldiers start out in same place
« Reply #42 on: August 20, 2008, 02:38:32 pm »
The base split on two levels is definite then?

I dunno, I kinda liked the problems with space - that meant you had to build more bases and divide your production and reasearch.
Even as it is I rarely have more than 5 bases, with only 2-3 fully built up, others just air bases.


Still, in this case, the top level would still have several possible entrances - hangars are up there too... possibly the radar or SAM sites - everything that has to have a surface opening.

Speaking which, wouldn't this require the re-make of most base tiles? There has to be a way to get from one level to the next after all, and if you don't elivators as parts of some sections, then you'll either have to make a specific section with lifts/stairs or re-work the base entrace to allow going straight down (stupid).

Offline Mayhem

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Re: request: soldiers start out in same place
« Reply #43 on: August 20, 2008, 03:16:12 pm »
Now you're just making things up and using them as arguments. None of this is planned for now. Aliens can go for:
- The power plant
- Alien Containment
- The command centre
- Any landed craft

Until you hear otherwise from someone on the dev team, this isn't going to change.

I was just going by the descriptions of the objects in the actual game.  You know, the descriptive text in the 'pedia that says "don't let the aliens damage your radar", "don't let the aliens damage your missile launcher" etc etc.

If the aliens are going to ignore all that stuff, then I suggest changing the 'pedia entries to say "don't worry about defending this."

Offline BTAxis

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Re: request: soldiers start out in same place
« Reply #44 on: August 20, 2008, 03:44:10 pm »
Don't deduce game design from the writeups. The UFOPaedia is mostly background information meant to deepen immersion. It isn't supposed to be a design document. Just because we don't model in the game something that's in the UFOPaedia doesn't mean the UFOpaedia is wrong, and conversely not everything written up in the UFOPaedia needs necessarily show up as a game mechanic.

The only time either needs to be corrected is when the two are actually in conflict.