UFO:Alien Invasion
Technical support => Feature Requests => Topic started by: roger.books on August 16, 2008, 07:03:10 am
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Minor annoyance, I like to run my squad as two fire teams. If they had consistent positions relative to their plane it would be wonderful. I spend my first turn sorting out teams.
Roger
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I?m more pissed at bease defnse.
The Team Room does nothing. Aren't soliders supposed to start THERE?
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No.
Besides, the team room will be removed eventually.
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Eh? Why? What's wrong with the team room?
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It's pointless. It doesn't serve any function except boosting the soldiers' morale (right now), which means you automatically HAVE to build one in any base that has soldiers, or it'll feel like you're being penalized. In other words, it just sits there, taking up space.
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Isn't it supposed to also be the place where your soldiers start? That way you can better defend the base.
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Not really. it's a leisure facility, so if they were in their your soldiers wouldn't be armed.
That being the case, the soldiers that were off duty really ought to start in the store-room, as that is where all the weapons and armour are kept and where they would have had to go to get geared up. There are no real facilities for "on-duty" guards, at the moment, which is a shame.
I personally think that the entrance ramp should include a guard post.
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I personalyl think that hangars should include CLOSED doors. PHALANX has an open door policy during aien invasions.
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Alien attacks on PHALANX bases aren't planned events. they happen unexpectedly. As such soldiers are "supposed" to start spread out.
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They can't be THAT unexpected..with all those radars and everything you should have at least a few minutes to prepare.
I mean - you can go in the base and equipp your soldiers when the enemy attacks. You can shoot the enemy UFO with SAM's.
ATM almost all of your soldiers start at the command center - thus the only smart thing when designing the base is to place the command center as close to the entrance and hangar bays as possible - which is totally illogical.
Still doesn't explain the open doors - having them open at all times is not a smart policy.
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I don't like the start positions in the command centre much either, but then again any place is as good as any other. Plus I'd prefer random starting positions to prevent players from massing their soldiers close to the alien start positions through clever base design.
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Random positions only make sense for off duty, unarmed and unarmoured troops.
To suggest that they heard the alarm, ran to the armoury, got their armour and weapons, and THEN wandered off to a random position in the base is stretching the suspension of disbelief to breaking point.
Plus, we know exactly how long they have to get ready - you can time it on the geoscape as soon as it becomes obvious that the UFO is headed for your base... the warning may only be a few mins but it is not an "out of nowhere" surprise.
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It is implied that it is. For a while now the plan has been to provide the player with a number of choices before the battle starts, such as whether or not to let the interceptors take off in order to avoid having them destroyed by the alien invaders, whether or not to kill the aliens in containment in case the aliens set them free, and whether or not to shut down the reactor to prevent the aliens from damaging it in operation. All of these are choices made on a moment's notice as the aliens invade the base.
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Again, doesn't make much sense that the aliens (which you CAN track), especially close to your radar arrays and base, pop up and deploy troops out of nowhere. The very landing and troop deployment takes at least a bit of time.
I'm all for more and tougher aliens on base attacks, but making the defenders look like total idiots?
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How about choosing the starting position of your soldiers (if possible with this engine)?
And of course the aliens need to be able to attack from different positions. Lets call it teleport-technology. The alien ship tries to get in range for teleporting their soldiers into the human base. Maybe it is a bit difficult to teleport them through large distances in materia, so they get teleported through the hangar doors, the elevator, maybe the radar. So the player has to defend different locations in his base. Then you also can replace fallen alien soldiers until the ship is empty and they have to leave.
But in general this is a question of gameplay! And the "story behind" should adapt, not the other way round.
Just another question: How many actors on a map can be placed with the current engine?
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I'm partial to the suggestion that PHALANX agents start out at random spawns throughout facilities they would be expected to frequent (Command, Quarters, Storage, etc.), but then have a limited number of turns to move into position before the aliens breach the base.
The alien breach could be handled in several ways, though I don't think teleportation is reasonable at the moment. Explosives make for a better explanation in my book. Entrance obstructions could be placed on the maps, which are then demolished at the start of Alien turn X, allowing the invaders to enter. The obstructions could also be alien-destroyable, if more randomization is preferable. Alternatively, using the alien reinforcement concept that I have heard discussed around here before, the initial alien invaders may not even have to be on the map right away, and additional aliens could be introduced at the start points as the invasion progresses.
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I vote on the following:
1. All base entrances are SEALED
2. Aliens have to breach them with explosives/plasma (could be automatic - set the doors to blow after 2 turns)
3. Aliens come in waves - big numbers.
4. Deployable turrets and defenses. Possibly even topside (visualises the gattling turret from C&C Generals)
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The alien breach could be handled in several ways, though I don't think teleportation is reasonable at the moment. Explosives make for a better explanation in my book. Entrance obstructions could be placed on the maps, which are then demolished at the start of Alien turn X, allowing the invaders to enter. The obstructions could also be alien-destroyable, if more randomization is preferable. Alternatively, using the alien reinforcement concept that I have heard discussed around here before, the initial alien invaders may not even have to be on the map right away, and additional aliens could be introduced at the start points as the invasion progresses.
That's an interesting idea, and worth pursuing, because I had a similar arrangement in mind for the final mission (endless waves of new aliens so you can't dig in and clear the map). On the other hand, remember that we don't want base missions to take too long, and most of it should happen inside of the base, so the aliens kind of need to gain entry on turn one.
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That's kinda the point.
Last few base defense missions I tried ended up a total bore - first I had to spend several turns just moving my soldiers towards possible entrances (you should know in which base section the aliens are. There are security cameras and sensors for a reason. I'm sure they are within PHALANX budget) and then even more turn looking for wandering aliens in between all those rooms.
So basicely, you should get a warning/map ping showing you the location of aliens and they should come in big numbers, push hard, and once you kill a few their reinforcements pop up.
Hey, if you are going to get rid of the team room, replace it with a READY ROOM - room that has training equipment (to train soldiers), storage lockers (for personal weaponry) and also doubles as a security station (reveals location of all aliens in the base). That, or you could just re-do the team room a little.
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It is implied that it is. For a while now the plan has been to provide the player with a number of choices before the battle starts, such as whether or not to let the interceptors take off in order to avoid having them destroyed by the alien invaders, whether or not to kill the aliens in containment in case the aliens set them free, and whether or not to shut down the reactor to prevent the aliens from damaging it in operation. All of these are choices made on a moment's notice as the aliens invade the base.
That makes no sense unless the invader isn't tracked on radar, which would defeat the object of radar.
My intercepters use usually launched, not to protect them, but to shoot the UFO down before it reaches my base. It makes no sense to be able to scramble pilots and shoot SAMS, but that the rest of the base personell don't noice anything going on.
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Then maybe we should handle radars more like in X-COM, where UFOs weren't automatically detected. Rather, they had a chance of being detected while in radar range. Because if UFOs going for the PHALANX base can really be detected that easily and that far in advance, it might be too easy to prevent them from getting there at all.
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Assuming you manage to shoot it down.
Still, a base designed to fight aliens shouldn't be caught with it's pants down.
Maybe radars aren't sure to detect, but there's always the good old Mk1 eyeball. Landing and making a opening in the doors take some time.
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Well, in the event of a UFO flying near enough to or on a course in the direction of a base, I would think that PHALANX security would be at its highest, and troopers would be given orders to get into position. To balance it out, though, your troopers' state of readiness could be dependent on the number of shifts available; the more extra healthy soldiers a base has (above the minimum number needed for a full base defense force), the more grouped the soldiers' starting points.
I also like % chance detection with radars. Assuming the presence of UFO active and passive countermeasures, they should at least be able to foil human ranged detection at least under favorable circumstances.
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Then maybe we should handle radars more like in X-COM, where UFOs weren't automatically detected. Rather, they had a chance of being detected while in radar range. Because if UFOs going for the PHALANX base can really be detected that easily and that far in advance, it might be too easy to prevent them from getting there at all.
Just as long as we don't go down the totally contrived route of being able to detect any UFO *except* the ones that miraculously avoid radar whilst heading directly towards your base.
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I agree. That would be bad.
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As an aside, the only reason I find it easy to shoot down incoming would-be base attacks at the moment is due to a strategic choice - my base has no intercepters but it is built in the centre of a square of other bases, each having the central base in their radar range and being equipped with 1 saracen and 2 stilletos each.
Not only does this provide excellent protection against base invasion, it means my dropship can move around relatively safe from UFOs. The trade-off is the reduced amount of coverage - nothing in South America or Australia, thoug I do have 1 base left to build...
If I had spread my bases out in a more convenional fashion, I'd either be sacrificing 4 sections of my home base to provide its own interception team (tight!) or I'd be relatively defenceless vs base invasions.
As I said, its a trade off - but one I am happy with given how tedious base invasions currently are...
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1.Soldiers hear the alert and according the "defence plan" run to armory get ammunition then run into planned positions. (in normal military organizations)
- where for before starting commander must select a positions of soldiers (it's a preplaned operation) (also commander in such situation can give additional oder to get specifical ammunition if it not in "defence plan").
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2.When army attacking defended fortification they use special types of assault weapons (smoke granades, hight explossive, mortar) just where for points of invasions are known by base defence force and commander.
- As good variant 2 point of invasion defender may know (and set it soldiers according to whem) and one they do not know (stratagem deception of alien).
- "Invasion point" must have large ammount of smoke and fire (or just smoke) that allow alian to dispence in hostile enviroment. And somone must throw some granades in invasion area to clear it from defence forces.
- Number of attackers must be better then defenders because they are in vulnerable situation.
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As an idea we could seal all the external base doors and make several of them breakable for the aliens to open. Best way would be to make two identical versions of the map sections for each base facility. One version would have solid closed doors, the second would have breakable external doors. You could then choose which version of the map section to use when setting up the whole map, probably random 50% chance to start. Probably would want to have the base entrance always be open, just in case.
There is a breakable brush in the game engine, it is currently used for glass in several maps and aliens will shoot through it. May need to check if the breakable brush can be used to open/close paths
Personally my only current problem with the base invasions is how long it takes to hunt down that last !@#$ alien on the surface or wherever he is. That bugger makes my base invasion missions take two to three times as long as anything else. Heck, I've started reloading until I shoot the UFO down because the last alien takes so long to find.
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As an idea we could seal all the external base doors and make several of them breakable for the aliens to open. Best way would be to make two identical versions of the map sections for each base facility. One version would have solid closed doors, the second would have breakable external doors. You could then choose which version of the map section to use when setting up the whole map, probably random 50% chance to start. Probably would want to have the base entrance always be open, just in case.
There is a breakable brush in the game engine, it is currently used for glass in several maps and aliens will shoot through it. May need to check if the breakable brush can be used to open/close paths
It does - on the industrial maps you can jump out of the windows after you have shot them out.
Personally my only current problem with the base invasions is how long it takes to hunt down that last !@#$ alien on the surface or wherever he is. That bugger makes my base invasion missions take two to three times as long as anything else. Heck, I've started reloading until I shoot the UFO down because the last alien takes so long to find.
Quoted for truth!
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We're thinking about letting players place security cameras in their bases that will reveal aliens in their line of sight. That, paired with an AI that doesn't make aliens hide all the time, should (hopefully) reduce this problem.
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Could also implement a retreat mechanism, when almost defeated and the decision to cut losses and deny PHALANX (additional) prisoners, where aliens will attempt to return to their entry points and subsequently reach above-surface exit points where they leave the battlefield altogether. Either that or a suicide/self-destruct function, where the alien will scuttle his equipment and then thoroughly off itself (for similar purposes to above), likely using plasma grenades or other nasty toys.
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We're thinking about letting players place security cameras in their bases that will reveal aliens in their line of sight. That, paired with an AI that doesn't make aliens hide all the time, should (hopefully) reduce this problem.
Why not just skip on the micromanagment and place cameras all over the place (as a high-tech important base should have) by default?
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Why not just skip on the micromanagment and place cameras all over the place (as a high-tech important base should have) by default?
Seconded. Just make all aliens in base missions visible. Ought to be some advantage for the home team, right?
Pile in enough aliens to make it a tough fight, and it becomes an exciting desperate battle instead of a tedious creep coerign every possible hidey hole looking for that one last alien. Would give it a different feel and a faster pace than the usual missions.
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But, to give the aliens a chance at catching the player off-guard, perhaps allow the cameras to be destroyed, directly by aliens or accidentally by a clumsy PHALANX soldier.
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Seconded. Just make all aliens in base missions visible. Ought to be some advantage for the home team, right?
Maybe you've not been reading this thread very well, because so far the aliens are barely given half a chance. And just compensating with number isn't going to work, really.
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To catch the player of-guard, make them come from 2 directions...
pick 2 possible entrances into the base (randomly), blow up doors, throw in gas grenades (or just add some fire & smoke effects on that place) and start sending in waves upon waves of aliens.
And trust me, number make all the difference
*get mental image of the Dressen attack in Ja2 ... 120 soldiers vs. 6 Mercs + 24 milita....fun times, fun times *
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Maybe you've not been reading this thread very well, because so far the aliens are barely given half a chance. And just compensating with number isn't going to work, really.
Wait, are these the same aliens who know exactly where we are at all times?
In addition, unlike the alines that drop onto farms to kidnap yokels and mutilate cattle, these are going to be aliens who know they are going into heavy fire. They are expecting heavy resistance and so they should all be wearing medium or heavy armour. There are only a few weapons available to the player that will garauntee a reaction-fire kill of a heavily armoured alien, and most can be fired once or twice at the most, so if large waves of aliens in heavy armour come pouring around the corner the player is going to be screwed if he is relying on reaction fire - especially if the aliens make forced entry into two locations.
Most missions are painstaking games of hide-and-seek - and over a large area, that can get pretty tedious. I think that changing the pace for the base invasion missions would be a good thing, and add an air of desperation to the proceedings instead of the current miasma of drudgery.
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And I have been reading this thread right from the start, and fail to see where abouts the aliens not being given half a chance comes in. If you are talking about the shoot-downs prior to invasion, that's a concious choice by the player to dedicate resources to air defence. Again it would be readily defeatable in most cases - the fluff text talks about UFOs escorting each other, and if a harvester and 2 fighters come flying in as a group its going to be very hard for most players to shoot them all down before they arrive...
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Wait, are these the same aliens who know exactly where we are at all times?
No. bobbens is writing a new AI that only knows what it can see.
In addition, unlike the alines that drop onto farms to kidnap yokels and mutilate cattle, these are going to be aliens who know they are going into heavy fire. They are expecting heavy resistance and so they should all be wearing medium or heavy armour. There are only a few weapons available to the player that will garauntee a reaction-fire kill of a heavily armoured alien, and most can be fired once or twice at the most, so if large waves of aliens in heavy armour come pouring around the corner the player is going to be screwed if he is relying on reaction fire - especially if the aliens make forced entry into two locations.
Except with all the automatic defences, bottlenecks and fortified positions people are clamoring for. Then they'll die pretty fast, especially if they invade in only one general area and the player starts grouped at the get go. Remember that with the new base layout, there's only a 3x4 area of possible entry, as the 5x5 grid will be completely underground.
Most missions are painstaking games of hide-and-seek - and over a large area, that can get pretty tedious. I think that changing the pace for the base invasion missions would be a good thing, and add an air of desperation to the proceedings instead of the current miasma of drudgery.
I definitely agree that this should be avoided, but that isn't the same as "let's have a shoot out at the front door". Base missions are supposed to take place in various parts of the base, that's what the map tiles are for.
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Number, number, numbers - I say again, keep spawning aliens.
It's a big factor.
Yea, you'll probably butcher the first wave...but by the second wave you have to start reloading weapons, thus loosing TU's...the law of numbers dictate that alien in big numbers will start scoring hits even with the most innacurate of all weapons...then you'll have to start pulling the wounded back and more aliens will come in. Pretty soon they'll have you on the run.
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Currently, the choke points are easy enough to set up because the aliens have only one ability - kill people.
But the future games, with the multi-level bases, the aliens will also be able to damage your base. It will not be a question of sitting and waiting for them in the choke-point between their entry areas and the critical areas - unless you want them bashing your hangars to bits, sabotaging your missile defefences and radar, and firing up the weapons in your captured UFOs...
I therefore don't think that having the aliens completely visible in the base defence missions will be a problem, as long as there are enough alien teams about to make choosing what to defend a tough choice...
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But the future games, with the multi-level bases, the aliens will also be able to damage your base. It will not be a question of sitting and waiting for them in the choke-point between their entry areas and the critical areas - unless you want them bashing your hangars to bits, sabotaging your missile defefences and radar, and firing up the weapons in your captured UFOs...
Now you're just making things up and using them as arguments. None of this is planned for now. Aliens can go for:
- The power plant
- Alien Containment
- The command centre
- Any landed craft
Until you hear otherwise from someone on the dev team, this isn't going to change.
I therefore don't think that having the aliens completely visible in the base defence missions will be a problem, as long as there are enough alien teams about to make choosing what to defend a tough choice...
Since all the targets I listed above are on the sublevel (except craft), that means aliens will have to go through the Entrance, which makes that a singular choke point. Defending that would be tantamount to defending most strategic locations, and that's exactly the thing I'm opposed to.
Possibly, we could put the alien start position on the first two levels of the entrance (surface and first sublevel), so they can spread out right from the start. But I have to think about that one some more, because it could cause problems of its own.
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The base split on two levels is definite then?
I dunno, I kinda liked the problems with space - that meant you had to build more bases and divide your production and reasearch.
Even as it is I rarely have more than 5 bases, with only 2-3 fully built up, others just air bases.
Still, in this case, the top level would still have several possible entrances - hangars are up there too... possibly the radar or SAM sites - everything that has to have a surface opening.
Speaking which, wouldn't this require the re-make of most base tiles? There has to be a way to get from one level to the next after all, and if you don't elivators as parts of some sections, then you'll either have to make a specific section with lifts/stairs or re-work the base entrace to allow going straight down (stupid).
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Now you're just making things up and using them as arguments. None of this is planned for now. Aliens can go for:
- The power plant
- Alien Containment
- The command centre
- Any landed craft
Until you hear otherwise from someone on the dev team, this isn't going to change.
I was just going by the descriptions of the objects in the actual game. You know, the descriptive text in the 'pedia that says "don't let the aliens damage your radar", "don't let the aliens damage your missile launcher" etc etc.
If the aliens are going to ignore all that stuff, then I suggest changing the 'pedia entries to say "don't worry about defending this."
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Don't deduce game design from the writeups. The UFOPaedia is mostly background information meant to deepen immersion. It isn't supposed to be a design document. Just because we don't model in the game something that's in the UFOPaedia doesn't mean the UFOpaedia is wrong, and conversely not everything written up in the UFOPaedia needs necessarily show up as a game mechanic.
The only time either needs to be corrected is when the two are actually in conflict.