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Author Topic: Dual Wielding Pistols?  (Read 36085 times)

laclongquan

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Re: Dual Wielding Pistols?
« Reply #45 on: April 11, 2009, 07:05:37 pm »
Hmm!

I read the wiki about laser pistol, go research it right away and keep two Close Quarter Specialists fully supplied (and best armors too).

Results: not true dual shots. The primary gun shot twice, the secondary gun didnt. But I am satisfied with it. The magazine is also quite large, so sustained fire is not a worry.

Reasons?
1. Variety of options: in close combat a fast weapon is preferable. double its power is even more preferable. Laser pistol is a bit weak (about 3 shots an enemy in standard 2.2). with dual I may, MAY, be alive if met two aliens. No dual? no dice, I change to flamer or SMG.

2. Accuracy and Range: heh, with height my pistoleer can take pot shot at sniper-range enemies. SMG or Assault rifles cant. With that range my CQS no longer limited to close distance. SMG or Flamer or shotgun are just too myopic.

All in all I am satisfied with Laser pistols. If you guys can make two guns consume the same rate of charges it would be icing on the cake. If not, I am okay with it.

By the way, please dont remove the option. Whatever those period-Nazis think, dual wield is one of many pleasure in tactic combat games. I dual-ed in JA2 too. And Fallout 2 doesnt have dual, more is a pity (I know what the guy saw but that just is a visual thing, not dual)

Offline homunculus

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Re: Dual Wielding Pistols?
« Reply #46 on: May 12, 2009, 10:54:13 am »
if you have both pistol and stun rod in hand, your ranged reaction fire could be with pistol and your melee reaction "fire" could be with stun rod.
oh, well...

odie

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Re: Dual Wielding Pistols?
« Reply #47 on: May 13, 2009, 12:01:19 pm »
Well well.... i have been following the discussions in these 4 pages....

I thnk after all tat is said, we have lots of limitations wrt programming resources and stuff here.

Like i mentioned in a couple of other threads, lets keep ideas open.

That being said 1,
let developers focus on bugs squashing now....
Esp when quite a lot of features are being worked on, and pathfinding's still not perfect.


Right now, i personally as a soldier and an active reservist, feels that dual pistol is good. Though implementing it would be a bit more complicated.

And esp when at this stage where balancing is OFF any of us' mind. So, leave it as such first.

Esp the point on plasma, sniper rifles, heavy duty wpns, light pistols etc...... ok? Leave balancing to later.

For now, leave programmers some lag and space and PEACE to focus on wats more impt.

If u feel tat u wanna do the balancing, come on to the team and pick up the programming knowledge..... then propose ur values....... (After doing the testing on the field yourself....)

:P

Okie.... peace.

ralthor

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Re: Dual Wielding Pistols?
« Reply #48 on: May 15, 2009, 06:09:48 am »
I don't see how using 2 pistols with alot of accuracy loss will be better than using any other rifle or pistol in a normal fashion, unless you come up with some very powerful close range pistols. I wouldn't waste a soldier wearing 2 pistols just for the cool factor. He'll probably get killed while being cool.

But, I would suggest making dualwielding kerrblades or other melee weapons viable.

I think this was missed.  Dual wielding pistols may be stupid, but it seems perfectly reasonable to dual weield melee weapons.  At which point if it was implemented with melee weapons it shouldn't be much more work (??) to implement for pistols (with much worse accuracy).  Seems like a nice feature to keep in the back of the mind.

ChunLing

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Re: Dual Wielding Pistols?
« Reply #49 on: May 29, 2009, 03:56:27 am »
Actually, it's really difficult to dual wield any kind of deadly weapon without fairly specialized training.  I wouldn't even try dual wielding a simple combat knife.  In practical swordsmanship (as opposed to display arts), the off-hand weapon is usually intended mainly as a parrying tool, not a serious offensive threat (stabby weapons with blunt edges and lots of hand-guard do well in this role).  Blunt weapons are different, you won't lose your primary hand by making a mistake with your off-hand (which is a real risk even for the genuinely ambidextrous with bladed weapons, let alone a powered device).

In the game, having a heavy/sniper/grenadier pull out a pistol or knife off-hand to deal with a sudden close combat situation without dropping the primary weapon is useful and reasonably realistic.  Having an ambidextrous trooper carry two pistols with differing capabilities is also somewhat plausible if one has a much higher range/accuracy (laser pistol) and the other has far higher close combat damage per TU (Machine Pistol/MM Knife/plasma blade).  But in most situations using a pistol you'd want your off hand free to open doors or grab things (or steady your aim).  And since you can quickly draw and employ an off-hand weapon or device it doesn't really make much sense to have inferior ranged power just to save a couple of TU's that you could have saved by not running around so much.

Offline Destructavator

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Re: Dual Wielding Pistols?
« Reply #50 on: May 29, 2009, 05:47:26 am »
I'll just say it again, in case it was buried back in this thread and missed - in the several years I worked in law enforcement, I didn't know of anyone in real life who wielded dual pistols, not even the same type of pistol, the same goes for cops I met from other departments all the way to federal agents and other people who I ran into.  Some people who work those jobs in real life carry backup weapons, as well as sometimes knives or batons, but they never put two guns on their gunbelt ready to wield at the same time.

Honestly, it really is a "TV-slash-movie-slash-video game" type of thing.

Then again, this is a game...

odie

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Re: Dual Wielding Pistols?
« Reply #51 on: May 29, 2009, 07:18:05 am »
I'll just say it again, in case it was buried back in this thread and missed - in the several years I worked in law enforcement, I didn't know of anyone in real life who wielded dual pistols, not even the same type of pistol, the same goes for cops I met from other departments all the way to federal agents and other people who I ran into.  Some people who work those jobs in real life carry backup weapons, as well as sometimes knives or batons, but they never put two guns on their gunbelt ready to wield at the same time.

Honestly, it really is a "TV-slash-movie-slash-video game" type of thing.

Then again, this is a game...

Ooooo, agreed agreed!

In all aspects, if u really want to use dual wpns, the reason is higher fire power / supressing fire. In those cases, u would be better off, offloading your single wpn full load, reload quick and empty the magazine again.....rather than end up with well.... not so quick reloads.

And if u r going for a 'higher chance' of hitting, u be better off using 1 wpn. In most RPGs (like DnD), to even use 2 wpns properly, u need specialised skill like ambidexterious / 2 wpns wielding / offhand wpn wielding.

Unless our game intend to introduce more skills.... i say we keep things as it is? :)

ChunLing

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Re: Dual Wielding Pistols?
« Reply #52 on: May 29, 2009, 02:45:01 pm »
That's my take.  The supposed "fire rate" improvement is a myth, the distraction of keeping your off-hand pointed downrange (not even at the target, just away from yourself) and pulling both triggers at the same time off-sets any gain in raw number of shots fired.  And since half the shots end up being completely unaimed (the way the human brain processes visual input makes it impossible to use both sights even if you don't have an eye dominance issue), all you get is a reduction in real firepower.

The reason dual-wielding is so popular in movies (and display arts) is because it is a literally superhuman skill that can be superficially simulated with minimal special effects.  The human eye, hand, and nervous system do not make actual dual-wielding as possible as a casual glance at bilateral symmetry would suggest.  Thus a person who appears to be doing it is "awesome" and "heroic".

Given the relatively poor state of much of the world's military posited at the outset of UFOAI, it might be plausible that there are PHALANX personnel who like to dual-wield, but probably simply to show that they can do it without hurting themselves (I emphasize that not hurting yourself when dual wielding does take significant skill), not because they gain any real advantage from doing so.

Offline vedrit

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Re: Dual Wielding Pistols?
« Reply #53 on: May 31, 2009, 06:39:13 am »
Aye. Dual-wielding ranged weapons is only good for 1 clip for suppressing fire, because when that clip runs out, your spending a lot of time re-loading (Putting down one gun to reload the other, then loading the second, picking up, getting atleast semi-comfortable), and during that long time your enemy is making their advance/putting focused fire on your team.

Dual-wielding melee weapons, on the other hand (badum, tish) is far more practical, but only in close combat against well-defended/skill opponents, when being able to slash twice in rapid succession is more important than one aimed/powerful slash. Like against aliens (Higher defense, stronger)

Unfortunatly, I dont think UFOAI plans on blocking/parrying/dodging melee.

Regardless of any comments said, I am still keeping both dual-wielding single-handed ranged and melee weapon animations on the list

Offline Destructavator

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Re: Dual Wielding Pistols?
« Reply #54 on: May 31, 2009, 07:43:58 am »
Oh, we can discuss this on and on with hypothetical reasons that might be true as to whether or not dual-wielded pistols would be effective - meaning ideas and theories thought up with logic by people here who haven't actually tried it with two handguns in real life, but it won't change the fact that in real life it just isn't something I've seen done, and as I said I've worked a job in my past where I was exposed to what people really do and don't do.

As far as the game goes though, yes we could get away with it for UFO: AI simply because it's a game and it's allowed in video games and action films, and done quite a bit on the TV/Computer screen.

...But if anyone here is going to argue about it with ideas and their own "logic" without actually trying it for real on a firing range - to see if their ideas - theories really - really do or don't hold true as they thought them up, I can't give your arguments much credit, because they don't have it - they don't hold water, and I'll maintain my position.

I have no problem with it being added to the game, because games do such a thing all the time, but please don't try to argue about it being practical and effective in real life (Unless you get up from in front of your computer, go to a range with two handguns and actually try it).

Sorry, but some of the arguments I've seen on both sides of this debate have rather unusual logic and I doubt are really true or applicable, and I'd guess that some of these arguments come from people who don't even fire guns.

I'm not trying to be an A-Hole here, but some parts of this debate really make me shake my head...

Edit: Alright, I checked YouTube to see if anyone has actually tried and documented it - Yes, some guy actually fired two Desert Eagle pistols dual-wielded, you can search for "dual desert eagle" on that site, but please notice how the guy in the video almost completely looses control of the weapons and ends up looking clumsy (and a bit stupid).
« Last Edit: May 31, 2009, 07:54:01 am by Destructavator »

ChunLing

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Re: Dual Wielding Pistols?
« Reply #55 on: May 31, 2009, 08:26:15 am »
Well, I've fired handguns other firearms, but I've never tried actually dual-wielding them because my experiments with toy weapons suggested that it would be a good way to lose a hand (or a friend).  I have seen video of guys doing it for fun, but it was clearly just for fun, clearly not achieving a remarkable rate of fire or any kind of accuracy.  I hadn't seen dual Desert Eagles before...that seems excessively stupid, but everyone has their own comfort range on that kind of thing.

Some people will try it, guys in theater do that kind of thing all the time (not everybody, and not everywhere, but at any given point in a war zone there probably is somebody doing something of that sort).  And a few otherwise good, disciplined soldiers might even believe it gives them an edge.  But that edge is purely emotional, and probably quite small.  I don't think it really needs to be modeled in the game, particularly since it would distract from things that really do have higher priority.  One of which would be modeling "throw your weapon over your head and fire an unaimed burst at a target you can't even see", a far more popular tactic in real life.  Another would be ninpo-kawarami no jitsu! for giving your veterans a second chance if they got shot, or ninpo-bunshin! (somebody actually suggested this in the wiki, or something basically similar).

For now, I'm okay with sticking with what can be done without messing with the basic dynamics of the game.  Though I did endorse the jetpack suggestion.  But that was a jetpack.  I mean...wouldn't you rather have a jetpack than be able to wield two pistols for a combined firepower lower than an easily available two-handed weapon?

Actually, the original X-com did have that, when soldiers went berserk from morale loss.  Do we have that yet?  I haven't noticed (it probably happened when my Firebird got shot down with the entire team).

odie

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Re: Dual Wielding Pistols?
« Reply #56 on: June 01, 2009, 09:31:00 am »
Ooooo,

I am so SO SO glad Destructavator brought up some clips and discuss the impracticality of wielding dual wpns......

I am also very happy he mentioned that some of the folks here prob did not even fire a single shot from any guns before - trust me, dual firing would be MAD! (Rambo is INSANE to fire dual GPMG - General Purpose Machine Gun).

Why?

Here's some clips on various dual firing of wpns (Observe how clumsy, inefficient and how 'useful' it will translate.... lol)

Dual Pistols (Desert Eagle here)
Dual Semi Autos (M249, quite close to our semi autos in UFOAI)
Dual AK47 (Somewhat like our Assaults wpns or M16s, just that it fires 7.92mm or was it 7.62mm lol)
Dual Shotguns (This is mad, good for killing ur buddies)
More Dual Pistols (Notice where the shots land - EVERYWHERE BUT the target)

And for those who wan to see a more 'professional person' at work...
MP5
That person seemed more pro, and in a more controlled firing (See how he hunched under clean fatigue....)
« Last Edit: June 01, 2009, 09:35:11 am by odie »

Offline homunculus

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Re: Dual Wielding Pistols?
« Reply #57 on: June 09, 2009, 08:39:21 pm »
could it be that some people forget about the weight of the gun and about the recoil?

afaik, basic newton mechanics goes like:

A = Fs

so, when you swing a hammer, you take a long swing with little force, it means that s is big and F is small.
when the hammer hits the head of the nail, s is going to be very small compared to the swing, and F is therefore going to be big.
when you shoot a gun, you need the force to punch the bullet into your opponent's body or into a brick wall or something similar.
and, to punch a bullet into a brick, which is the case with, say, ak-47 assault rifle, you need considerable power, and that impulse does not magically disappear but gets transferred through your weapon to your body.
and this is what is called recoil.

it is not going to be like shooting guns in quake while running and jumping.

and another newton mechanics thing is:

F = ma

if the gun is heavy, the recoil is easier to handle.
that is the reason why you might want your gun to be reasonably heavy compared to the bullet.
if you are not convinced you can imagine that instead of holding the gun and shooting the bullet you are holding the bullet and shooting the gun.

but, a heavy gun is more difficult to maneuver quickly, and if you imagine the opponent at one step distance from you taking a step to the side, you need to move your gun a lot more compared to the situation where the opponent is something like ten steps away.

and, in order to not only handle the recoil but also to maneuver the gun more quickly or to have better control while aiming, you might want to hold a gun with two hands even if it is a pistol.
and even if you are not holding a pistol with two hands you want the off-hand to help balance your movements.
the maneuvering benefit you get from holding a pistol with two hands should depend on the weight of the pistol and your strength.
if you are using a two-handed weapon like an assault rifle, you are holding it at two points that have some distance, giving you better leverage to control the gun.

again, it is not like in quake where you can turn and aim the gun at the same speed no matter what the weight of the gun is, say, no matter if it is a pistol or a rocket launcher.

if you feel like you are strong enough to dual wield some toy pistols for more fire power, then you would probably be better off if you increased caliber or used higher fire rate bursts or the like.

now, instead of dual wielding pistols, maybe we should suggest the following (and then quickly discard the suggestion as too complicated) for, e.g. reaction fire:
1) time units for responding to the event of an alien appearing in front of your soldier.
2) time units for aiming, which depends on the weight and length of the gun and how many hands the soldier is using to hold the gun and the soldier's strength, and also on how fast the alien is moving and in what direction (straightly towards the soldier or sideways).
3) time units to pull the trigger.
4) at this moment the alien gets shot.
5) and then you would get recoil and would not be able to do anything reasonable for some time units, because you got a punch to your body from, say, your assault rifle, the power of which could punch a lead bullet into a brick wall. it would be best if there would be a recoil animation where your soldier would look slightly disoriented.

as i see it, this whole discussion about dual wielding is an artifact of the shooting rules in the game that are the way they are for the sake of simplicity.

=========

now, i am sorry for getting bit off-topic, but as i pointed out earlier in this thread, when you are using, say, a pistol and a stun rod, then you might want to use a stun rod reaction for melee range and a pistol reaction otherwise.
and, afaik, you cannot arrange it that way in the game.
and where i am getting really off-topic is this:
like in jagged alliance you get an interrupt when you have an opportunity to respond to an opponent, i think it could also work in an ufo game.
actually what i would like to see most is that when an alien appears you get an interrupt and you can do whatever, provided you have saved the time units for the response in your previous round.
for example, you could crouch, or you could use a different weapon.
but, if you are fumbling around with your weapons for too long, the alien will get to shoot you first.

i feel this would create some positive gameplay tension as you wouldn't know how many time units you have for the response, but only have a rough estimate based on how slow weapon the alien is using.

no idea if this has any practical value as a suggestion to the game in no matter how distant future, but maybe it would be ok to discuss it in a separate thread to figure out if it could have some potential.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2009, 08:44:06 pm by homunculus »

Offline Jaynestown

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Re: Dual Wielding Pistols?
« Reply #58 on: June 14, 2009, 05:23:36 am »
Giving these units the ability to dual-wield pistols would be dumb - this is my first thought.  However, given the mechanics of the game, there is one situation where you would want to have two equipped and firing simultaneously, regardless of loss to accuracy, and this is in extremely close combat.  With a horrendous penalty to accuracy imposed, as there would be in real life, I can still imagine dual firearms being worthwhile say if you open a closet door and there are two enemies inside.  You're two tiles away from three enemies and you don't have a primary weapon.  Yes, maybe then you would want to fire two guns at the same time.

Speaking of backup weapons, it would be neat if they could pull a secondary weapon for reaction fire, if you don't have enough TU to fire your main gun, but an enemy is approaching.

ChunLing

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Re: Dual Wielding Pistols?
« Reply #59 on: June 19, 2009, 07:22:30 am »
If you want higher DPS, then use a weapon with higher DPS.  That's why in real life we have things like sub-machine guns, which fire pistol ammunition on full-auto.  As it happens, we also have those in-game.  So the reasons for dual-wielding in-game are pretty much what they are in real life...cause it's "awesome".

As for not having enough time to react with your currently equipped primary weapon, but having enough time to draw and use your sidearm...maybe that means it should take more time to draw a weapon.  Because realistically, it's always faster to use the weapon you have out than to draw and use a different weapon.  The only question is effectiveness.  But for reaction fire, it's up to the player to decide which weapon is likely best suited to the situations likely to arise during the enemy turn.