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Author Topic: Medikits  (Read 73326 times)

Offline criusmac

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Re: Medikits
« Reply #105 on: July 17, 2009, 11:25:38 am »
Might be, maybe it will seem simpler if I list the differences from the 2.2.1 (and probably the development version) instead?

Differences from stable version:
New variable that tracks how many hit points a person has been healed in the mission so far.
Remove ability for people to be healed to over their maximum hit points. (bug fix)
All hit points healed by a medikit will be removed on mission end, but they can not die from this.

Those are the total differences from the stable version, as far as I can tell.

If we go with the alternative proposal, then it starts getting a bit complicated, but that was based on the threads listing what people wanted.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2009, 11:29:23 am by criusmac »

Offline geever

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Re: Medikits
« Reply #106 on: July 17, 2009, 11:37:21 am »
Remove ability for people to be healed to over their maximum hit points. (bug fix)

This one was fixed already.

-geever

Offline Mattn

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Re: Medikits
« Reply #107 on: July 17, 2009, 12:46:34 pm »
All hit points healed by a medikit will be removed on mission end, but they can not die from this.

not all of them - but maybe dependent from the skill of the medic (but yes- the biggest part should be removed after a mission)

Offline TrashMan

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Re: Medikits
« Reply #108 on: July 17, 2009, 03:39:17 pm »
Dying in one hit adds a realistic touch and will probably be avoided with the use of better armour.

If you're hit in the head, probably. If you're hit in the foot, no.

And while I'm normally the first to support realism, there are always some boundries after which it may start to interfere with the gameplay (depending on game type)


I vote for a stamina bar since it adds more realism and tactics. Weight and strength come into play. Injuries come into play even more. Various weapons, especially stun types,  have an added benefit. (a shotgun to the chest, even in heavy armor, WILL knock out all the air out of you and make it hard to breathe.)

Now you have 2 bars and very different effects that weapons have.

Projectile weapons cause bleeding, medikits can stop the bleeding and patch some small amount of HP.
Lasers don't cause bleeding.

Every weapons does some amount of stun damage (reduces stamina bar). The less stamina, the less Action Points a soldier has. If a stamina bar falls to 0, the solider falls unconcious (for 2-3 turns)

Basicly, just look at how Jagged Alliance 2 did it. Simple, intuitive, effective, tactical.

odie

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Re: Medikits
« Reply #109 on: July 21, 2009, 06:58:21 am »
If you're hit in the head, probably. If you're hit in the foot, no.

And while I'm normally the first to support realism, there are always some boundries after which it may start to interfere with the gameplay (depending on game type)


I vote for a stamina bar since it adds more realism and tactics. Weight and strength come into play. Injuries come into play even more. Various weapons, especially stun types,  have an added benefit. (a shotgun to the chest, even in heavy armor, WILL knock out all the air out of you and make it hard to breathe.)

Now you have 2 bars and very different effects that weapons have.

Projectile weapons cause bleeding, medikits can stop the bleeding and patch some small amount of HP.
Lasers don't cause bleeding.

Every weapons does some amount of stun damage (reduces stamina bar). The less stamina, the less Action Points a soldier has. If a stamina bar falls to 0, the solider falls unconcious (for 2-3 turns)

Basicly, just look at how Jagged Alliance 2 did it. Simple, intuitive, effective, tactical.

Trashman,

Take note that this is UFO: Alien Invasion. Not jagged alliance. Haha. There have been many many diff types of suggestions like this (emulating a certain game's behaviour here, including JG2). I believed that as much as we all like JG2, and even XCOM, lets just be unique and keep our stats as per it is proposed, ok? Haha, if u really liked that behaviour, well, thats THAT game (JG or whatever for that sake). :)

BTAxis, whom i believe is now writing the proposal as geever suggested, will probably give us (definately after all the inputs PLUS the dev team's directions) what is the accepted behaviour.

I still think we should keep it simple enuf, lest we even further delve into the idea of separating the body into different parts, with diff parts having diff types of injuries, with HP for each part, possibly maiming of part, loss of functions, bleedings, shock, etc, etc - i can go on and on, cos i am a very old time and trained first aider + hardcore RPG gamer. (All the way back to the good ol' D&D paper and dice RPG days). lol. But wats the point? No point.

Simplicity is virtue. Lol.

Toodles! :P

Offline homunculus

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Re: Medikits
« Reply #110 on: July 22, 2009, 06:21:11 am »
so, you claim people die from one shot.
true, but if it's not a head shot or to the heart or something else that almost instantly shuts down the brain, they should still be bleeding for a few seconds before they die, isn't it so?
they do die from one shot, though.
[...]But wats the point? No point.[...]
if you ask it this way, i think there is a point, and in most part it is about gameplay.

if your veteran gets hit by some accidental shot and gets killed, it is right now very easy to reload and do the mission again, and it is comparatively very difficult to train a new veteran.
the gameplay problem is that, as it is right now, the veteran didn't get shot at all!

if soldiers do not die from one hit, i would suggest that the one hit would still make the player say 'ouch'.
no matter how this is done.
the bleeding to death (preferably very quickly) and creating some chaos trying to save your bleeding soldiers could be one way.
reducing stats of the soldier until healed in hospital could be another.

right now the soldier either gets totally annihilated or else it runs around with, say, 1 health point, and shoots and throws grenades like a maniac, just with some increased danger of getting annihilated with the next shot.

it is a matter of taste, i know, but i would like the deaths to be less instant, and i would like there to be a mess that might interfere with the player's tactics.

@criusmac
as i understand, the basics of what you want to say is something as simple as that medikit-healed health
1) is limited to 50%
2) disappears after mission
and also, stat reduction could be added on top of that, if desired.

now, if you try to specify it in such detail that you would be ready to code it, the same idea will certainly sound complicated.
;)

actually wasn't the first version just that:
'medikit-healed health would disappear after mission'?

odie

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Re: Medikits
« Reply #111 on: July 22, 2009, 06:46:09 am »
so, you claim people die from one shot.
true, but if it's not a head shot or to the heart or something else that almost instantly shuts down the brain, they should still be bleeding for a few seconds before they die, isn't it so?
they do die from one shot, though.if you ask it this way, i think there is a point, and in most part it is about gameplay.

if your veteran gets hit by some accidental shot and gets killed, it is right now very easy to reload and do the mission again, and it is comparatively very difficult to train a new veteran.
the gameplay problem is that, as it is right now, the veteran didn't get shot at all!

if soldiers do not die from one hit, i would suggest that the one hit would still make the player say 'ouch'.
no matter how this is done.
the bleeding to death (preferably very quickly) and creating some chaos trying to save your bleeding soldiers could be one way.
reducing stats of the soldier until healed in hospital could be another.

right now the soldier either gets totally annihilated or else it runs around with, say, 1 health point, and shoots and throws grenades like a maniac, just with some increased danger of getting annihilated with the next shot.

it is a matter of taste, i know, but i would like the deaths to be less instant, and i would like there to be a mess that might interfere with the player's tactics.

@criusmac
as i understand, the basics of what you want to say is something as simple as that medikit-healed health
1) is limited to 50%
2) disappears after mission
and also, stat reduction could be added on top of that, if desired.

now, if you try to specify it in such detail that you would be ready to code it, the same idea will certainly sound complicated.
;)

actually wasn't the first version just that:
'medikit-healed health would disappear after mission'?

Ah, if its the one hit and killed soldier issue, i guess this come down to balancing the game then.

Right now, balancing is not yet done, (be it wpns or armors, aliens' or humans'), hence it might result in too lousy armor or overpowered wpns.

All these will definately change once balancing is done then. :D

Offline homunculus

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Re: Medikits
« Reply #112 on: July 22, 2009, 07:30:15 am »
Ah, if its the one hit and killed soldier issue, i guess this come down to balancing the game then.
[...]
actually i don't think it's exactly this 'one hit and killed' issue nor a matter of balancing.

with bleeding, you can have practically any shot resulting in one hit kill.
in this sense, it is about making weapons more powerful.

and i would say it is not about balancing, it is rather about 1-hp-lucky-and-happy or else instantly annihilated.
realism would be an additional benefit but main reason would be gameplay.

bleeding would let you make weapons more powerful, but without motivating reloading.
so the soldiers _do_ get hit and it matters (but when the mission is reloaded because of veteran death, they effectively _don't_ get hit).

Offline geever

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Re: Medikits
« Reply #113 on: July 29, 2009, 01:53:48 pm »
@criusmac: The official design for Medikits finished. Have a look.

-geever

odie

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Re: Medikits
« Reply #114 on: July 29, 2009, 06:23:26 pm »
@criusmac: The official design for Medikits finished. Have a look.

-geever

Quote
Wounds and Medikits

Author: BTAxis

This article describes the system of soldier wounds, bleeding and the use of medikits as per official design. The purpose is to create a realistic yet simple system that allows players to tend to the wounded on the battlefield without unbalancing the game.

It is assumed soldiers will almost always be wounded before they are killed; weapon and armour balancing will have to ensure that this is the case. In general weapon damage should be lowered; the reduction in killing power is compensated by bleeding.
Wounds

A soldier, when taking damage, will also be wounded. As it is currently not possible to determine where the soldier was hit, the location of the wound will have to be randomized, with each body part having a set chance of getting the wound. This chance may be subject to factors such as armour and implants. The possible locations are head, torso, arms and legs. There is no distinction between the right and left limbs.

Each wound inflicts a penalty on the soldier, depending on which body part is wounded.

    * Wounds on the arms reduce accuracy with all weapons, and increase TUs needed to shoot.
    * Wounds on the legs increase the amount of TUs needed to move.
    * Wounds on the torso increase the amount of TUs needed for reaction fire.
    * Wounds on the head decrease visibility and accuracy with all weapons.

Each wound also bleeds, steadily taking health from the soldier until the battle is over, the wounds are healed or the soldier dies. Bleeding takes health directly from the health bar; there is no "second" health bar of any kind.

Wounds treated with a medikit do not disappear. Instead they are considered "treated". A treated wound does not bleed and only incurs half of its normal penalty. However, treated wounds can only be fully healed by spending time in a PHALANX base hospital. A soldier with wounds that is sent out on a new mission will start that mission with the penalties associated with those wounds.

When the player wins a mission, all untreated wounds will be automatically treated.

Aliens are subject to wounding just like humans, but the specific race of aliens may affect the chance of taking wounds, the penalties and the rate of bleeding.
Functions of the medikit

The medikit has three uses: treatment of wounds, recovery of morale and revival of stunned actors. All three functions draw from the same ammunition pool, for simplicity. Each of these functions is a separate firemode on the medikit. Note that the medikit may not be used on robotic targets for any purpose.
Treatment of wounds

Each use of this firemode treats a single wound on the target actor. Wounds are treated in the order they were inflicted. When the wound is treated it ceases to bleed and its penalties are halved. In addition, the actor being treated recovers a small amount of health. This firemode can not be used on actors that have no untreated wounds.
Recovery of morale

Each use of this firemode will raise the target's morale by a fixed amount. Useful to prevent soldiers from panicking.
Revival of stunned actors

When used on a friendly target, each use of this firemode will remove a fixed amount of stun damage. Once stun damage falls below health, the actor is revived. When used on a stunned alien target, this firemode will actually increase stun damage, keeping the target sedated. However, this function may not be used until Live Alien has been researched.

Civilians count as friendly targets.

This firemode may not be used on conscious enemy targets.

I like this final proposal that is accepted. :D

Was wondering if the medikit is a standard 5/5 10/10 (X/X) usage kind, or will it be like old XCom - where there are 3 diff types of 'medicine' for treating each of the 3 wounds respectively, with limited usage? :D

Offline criusmac

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Re: Medikits
« Reply #115 on: July 29, 2009, 11:21:14 pm »
Herein lies my current proposal, let me know if it is ok:

I will create a linked list of wounds in the actor object.
I will change the medikits to have 3 different firing modes.
--I will base this on weapons.
--All medikit modes will take the same number of turn units.
--Reaction fire will not affect enemies (to stun them more). They will only affect allies.
--The player must set the reaction fire mode of the medikits in the same manner as weapons.
I will add bleeding to actors.
--The bleeding will add additional damage to the wound that is bleeding.
I will try to add ammo capacity to the medikits.
--I will set the initial amount to 10, since this is a common number of uses of medikits in most games I've played.
I will code in the effects of Treatment of wounds.
I will code in recovery of morale.
I will try to code in stunned friendly recovery.
I'm thinking it might be too tough to code in stunning of enemies, but I'll give it a try for now.
I will try to add the effects of wounds on the body (reduced abilities).
--The amount of reduced abilities will be the current value of the wound as a percentage.
--IE: If the wound currently is 20% of a person's total hp, they will receive a 20% penalty to all associated abilities.

I won't balance the weapons.
I won't balance the armors.
I won't add wounding to the weapons for now.
I won't change the size and weight of the medikits.

Someone else will need to look into the things I won't be doing.. Or, given enough time, I might eventually try to do it myself. All these decisions have been made without looking at the code at all though.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2009, 11:22:49 pm by criusmac »

Offline geever

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Re: Medikits
« Reply #116 on: July 30, 2009, 12:37:25 pm »
I will create a linked list of wounds in the actor object.

"object" :) We're in pure C.. but okay (we have list handlers (in src/common/common.c)).

I will change the medikits to have 3 different firing modes.
--I will base this on weapons.
--All medikit modes will take the same number of turn units.

That is/should be scriped (base/ufos/weapons.ufo)

--Reaction fire will not affect enemies (to stun them more). They will only affect allies.
--The player must set the reaction fire mode of the medikits in the same manner as weapons.

Reactionfire for a Medikit? It made me thinking. Maybe for a dedicated medic, yes. What I worry about is how it can be done without hacking the code. I don't know RF code myself but I doubt it would fit. I suggest to drop this idea from the first round. We can consider/discuss this later.

I won't add wounding to the weapons for now.

Why? How can you test healing wounds wo. inflicting them?

-geever

Offline criusmac

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Re: Medikits
« Reply #117 on: July 30, 2009, 04:29:28 pm »
It's a good point, how to test the wounds without inflicting them. :) I decided every hit would create a wound, so I will be adding wounds to weapons, I just didn't change that in the post.

Thanks, I couldn't find the medikits anywhere (And oddly I thought I had looked right inside weapons.ufo).

Ok, I'll drop the reaction fire from medikits for now then.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2009, 04:32:11 pm by criusmac »

Offline homunculus

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Re: Medikits
« Reply #118 on: July 30, 2009, 09:43:06 pm »
Quote
[...]Bleeding takes health directly from the health bar; there is no "second" health bar of any kind.[...]
*cough*, couldn't we rather say that the main health bar, in this case _is_ the "second" health bar?
actually now that there are bodyparts it is the fifth, but whatever.
and the stun thing somewhat reminds me of how soldier looses consciousness when blood pressure drops below stun level (the earlier too complicated suggestion).

i didn't quite get it clear if shot damage is applied as wounds to bodyparts only, or also to the main health bar.
if shot damage is also applied to the main health bar (which is likely the case), when your soldier gets shot, it is as if he lost some amount of blood in a splash, and then continued bleeding.
so, the soldier gets shot and
1) high damage shot --> has little health left in the main bar and is bleeding a lot.
2) low damage shot --> has much health left in the main bar and is bleeding a little.
actually idk how you meant it, i am just making assumptions.

if shot only created wounds on the body (the main bar is affected only by bleeding) then weapon damage would have less brisk effect than in the case of directly damaging the main health bar.

so, in addition to creating bleeding wounds, does the shot directly damage the main health bar?

as you can guess, i am certainly waiting with anticipation to try the new system.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2009, 09:44:58 pm by homunculus »

Offline criusmac

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Re: Medikits
« Reply #119 on: July 31, 2009, 08:07:02 am »
My fault since I did not explain the exact mechanics I was expecting to implement at first.

My plan is:
When you get hit with any weapon, laser, projectile, explosion, whatever, I pick a random body part that it will hit. There will be an equal chance to hit any body part. That chance is 25% for each location since there are 4 possible locations that can be hit. For example, if you walk up to some person, and hold a shotgun to their chest, you stand an equal chance of hitting their chest, legs, head, or arms. We can say this might be realistic since the person getting shot doesn't want to, and may grab the shotgun aiming it down, or block with their arms, or start to duck, or something.

When the person is hit, there is damage done to their body part that was hit. This will always create a wound of a certain amount, unless the armor completely blocks the damage. This wound will (for now) always bleed, and the additional damage done each turn will be equal to 10% of the wound's damage. This damage is truncated, so any wound under 10 hp will not cause blood loss. (Let me know if you want this changed). Even if the wound is caused by laser, it will still be bleeding. (If you want, I can look into making all laser wounds already treated, but for now I won't).

I disagree with treating the wounds in the order they were created -- I feel it would be better to treat the worst wounds first, but I will do as the proposal states. Please change this though. It feels silly to treat a non bleeding 5 hit point arm wound when there's a 30 hit point head wound gushing blood just because the head wound was done after the arm wound.

The hit points of the person will decrease with any wound suffered, no matter where it is. If the total number of hit points in wounds equals/exceeds the total number of hit points the person has, they will die. No matter where the wounds are. IE: If the person gets shot in the arm for 50 hit points of damage, and they only have 30 left, they're dead.

To find out how much a skill has decreased due to damage, you take the total number of wounds on the body part, and divide that by the total number of hit points the person has. The result of this division is the percentage of skills reduced. IE: If the person has 100 hit points total, and has 20 hit points of damage in the arms, they will have a 20% decrease in their accuracy with any weapon, and a 20% increase in the turn units needed to use any weapon/item. If they have 50 hit points total, and 10 hit points of damage in the arms, they will be affected the exact same amount as the person with 100 hit points total, and 20 hit points of arm damage.

When they are cured with a medikit, they will recover 20% of the hit points of that wound, and the wound will be considered treated. This is subject to change, but it's the number I randomly picked. IE: If they have 100 hit points total, and have an untreated arm wound of 20 points of damage, that is immediately treated by a medikit, they will then have an 16 hit point arm wound that is now treated, and will no longer bleed. They skills will increase by about 4% accuracy for all weapons as well, and their turn units for using the weapons will decrease by 4%.

So, in summary of my current plans:
If they have 100 hit points total, and a 20 hit point arm wound that's untreated, they will lose 2 hit points per turn until they are treated. They will have a 20% decrease in accuracy with all weapons, and a 20% increase in turn units to use any weapon/item. If a medic doesn't arrive for 5 turns, the wound will have reached 30 hit points of damage, and the person will start losing 3 hit points per turn until they are treated. When the finally get treated on the 6th turn, the will then have a 24 hp arm wound that is treated, and they will have a 24% accuracy decrease, and a 24% increase in turn units to use any weapon rather than 30% (before treatment).

I would like to change it so that people can treat their own wounds, but last I saw, this can't be done, and there's probably a reason.. So I won't change this unless asked to.

So, to answer your questions directly:
Every hit causes a wound. The shot damage is applied to the body parts. All damage done to body parts is subtracted from the main health bar. There is only 1 health bar. You can do unlimited damage to any body part, and the person will die only when all the body part damages equals or exceeds the main health bar's hit points.
1) high damage shot --> has little health left in the main bar and is bleeding a lot.
2) low damage shot --> has much health left in the main bar and is bleeding a little.
Both can be true.. But it is more likely 2, since damages will be less after balancing.

The shots create wounds on the body, but the wounds affect the health bar as well. IE: If you take a 20 point wound in your arms, your main bar is decreased by 20 as well. Bleeding affects both the wound, and thus the health bar as well. If you bleed and your wound is 2 points worse, your health bar also decreases by 2 points.
You can calculate the value of the health bar by:
The max hit points of the person minus the value of each wound on every body part.

Shot damage directly affects the main health bar. Since there is only 1 health bar, it may be confusing to keep calling it the main one.
There is a second bar, a stun bar, but it has nothing to do with the health bar. In other words, the stun bar also takes the same amount of damage to deplete, regardless of the health of the individual. There already appears to be some stun code in place, so it will probably just use that.

Please let me know of any changes that need to be made, or if you have any other questions about my plans.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2009, 08:44:10 am by criusmac »