Winter's Notes

[Winter]

This thread's for me to jot down ideas and stuff.

Design idea:
Unresearched alien weapons do 25% extra damage. Researching a weapon eliminates its bonus.

[BTAxis]

I don't feel much for that one because

1) it goes against my efforts to make soldiers be able to survive at least a few hits
2) it greatly prioritizes the need to research alien weaponry over something else, essentially forcing the player into a specific research path
3) it makes no sense. Alien weapons don't become weaker just because PHALANX researches them, and armour doesn't magically become stronger either. Of course PHALANX will know how better to defend against a weapon if they know how it works, but in my opinion that is already modeled through research of new armour types. Besides, since every weapon in a given alien weapon category functions more or less the same, researching one weapon in that category should give PHALANX all the information it needs to protect against all weapons in that category.

I would prefer tying the research into armour to the research of the weapons, rather than include a system like this.

[Winter]

I don't feel much for that one because

1) it goes against my efforts to make soldiers be able to survive at least a few hits
2) it greatly prioritizes the need to research alien weaponry over something else, essentially forcing the player into a specific research path
3) it makes no sense. Alien weapons don't become weaker just because PHALANX researches them, and armour doesn't magically become stronger either. Of course PHALANX will know how better to defend against a weapon if they know how it works, but in my opinion that is already modeled through research of new armour types. Besides, since every weapon in a given alien weapon category functions more or less the same, researching one weapon in that category should give PHALANX all the information it needs to protect against all weapons in that category.

I would prefer tying the research into armour to the research of the weapons, rather than include a system like this.

1. Unarmoured soldiers really shouldn't be able to survive 'at least a few hits', given how destructive the aliens' weaponry is. Human weapons on aliens takes 'a few hits'. The playing field should not be level. One really solid hit from a plasma rifle bolt should be enough to drop an unarmoured soldier.

2. The bonus could be lower, but I still think it would make a nice design mechanic, and really get the player to think about what to research when.

3. Improved tactics and training versus a weapon studied in detail doesn't make sense to you?

Regards,
Winter

[eleazar]

3. Improved tactics and training versus a weapon studied in detail doesn't make sense to you?

Does studying a machine-gun in detail make you significantly safer if you are already very familiar with the rifle?  The important differences (rate of fire, accuracy) can be picked up pretty quickly in the field.  The finer points of distinction don't change tactics much because against either one you are trying your very utmost to avoid being hit.

[BTAxis]

1. Unarmoured soldiers really shouldn't be able to survive 'at least a few hits', given how destructive the aliens' weaponry is. Human weapons on aliens takes 'a few hits'. The playing field should not be level. One really solid hit from a plasma rifle bolt should be enough to drop an unarmoured soldier.

We don't HAVE unarmoured soldiers. Well, we do, technically, but standard combat armour is available right from the start, and nobody is going to send out soldiers without equipping them with it. The UFOpaedia itself urges the player never to do so. And don't tell me combat armour doesn't count, because if it doesn't count, what is it for? No, combat armour should, and does, allow a soldier to survive being attacked by the lower end alien weapons.

2. The bonus could be lower, but I still think it would make a nice design mechanic, and really get the player to think about what to research when.

Alright, fair enough. I don't agree, though.

3. Improved tactics and training versus a weapon studied in detail doesn't make sense to you?

Not to that extent, no. What eleazar said. And knowing how a weapon works doesn't somehow allow you to take less damage if you get hit with it. I could understand if it was a bonus healing damage done by the weapon, but not a reduction in actual damage.

[SpaceWombat]

Whether you get hit or not is not determined by the knowledge about the weapon. You try to evade as good as you can, always, against any weapon with the same effort. That goes especially for trained soldiers in deadly danger where a critical hit might not kill but disable you (which could be worse, what are these aliens doing to prisoners?).
"Come on, it is not that deadly, let's take one or two hits, it's not worth moving my lazy a**!" is a sentence you will never hear, think, whatever.

If you get hit the result is the same, no matter what's stored in your brain. Would be a weird experience for a newbe to see that the crazy alien weapon isn't that effective once you use it yourself.

I could agree to some "tactical" difference (type of cover you seek, ballistic curves etc.) but that would better be addressed by different hit probabilities.

I fully support BTAxis and Eleazar in this (if you mind to ask me  ).

[eleazar]

Heh, i'm not sure if this is what you wanted in a "notes" thread... but really not a good place if you don't want interaction.

2. The bonus could be lower, but I still think it would make a nice design mechanic, and really get the player to think about what to research when.

If that mechanic is the goal then perhaps a more plausible implementation would be to increase the demoralizing effect of being shot at by an unknown alien weapon.  IMHO it's easier to face a known danger than an unknown one.  Our fears can go in overdrive when faced with the mysterious.

[Zorlen]

If you decide that weapon research is going to affect damage, then I would rather suggest adding some resistance modifier rather than tweaking weapon power. Otherwise it would affect also aliens' damage to civilians and accidental friendly-fire damage to fellow aliens.
The latter reminds me of an episode, when I tried to headshot an alien, plotting firing line half-pixel away from a teammate. Needless to say, the headshot missed that half-pixel and scatched teammate's elbow, killing him instantly. Headshots are always deadly!

[BTAxis]

Whether you get hit or not is not determined by the knowledge about the weapon.

Mind you, we are not talking about hit chance. We are talking about damage.

[SpaceWombat]

Mind you, we are not talking about hit chance. We are talking about damage.

I've noticed that. 
But my point is that a full hit will always do the same damage -as you probably will agree. And the only point to justify a higher damage is -physically- a less good shot when you know more about the enemies weapon. If the probability of the shot is the same I don't see how that bonus fits in.
Sorry if my post was a little confusing.