Things to learn from Xenonauts?

[TrashMan]

A catchy thing from Xenonauts  - alien weapons are made for alien hands, and thus the ergonomy for humans is all wrong. You soldier can pick the weapon up and use it, but has a accuracy penalty (and it also cannot be reloaded, but that's another matter)

Very realistic and gives producton even more weight, as human-compatable versions have to be produced.
All alien weapons are inherently unfit for humans to use.

[H-Hour]

A couple of us have considered something similar, but to do it properly we would need to change our alien and weapon models. As it is, the Taman, Shevaar and Ortnok all have very humanoid hand/arm/eye relationships, and all of the models for alien weapons are pretty similar to human weapons.

Calling it "uncomfortable" for human use would look like a cheap hack unless it was backed up by the appearance of the aliens and weapons in-game.

[ShipIt]

A catchy thing from Xenonauts  - alien weapons are made for alien hands, and thus the ergonomy for humans is all wrong. You soldier can pick the weapon up and use it, but has a accuracy penalty (and it also cannot be reloaded, but that's another matter)

Very realistic and gives producton even more weight, as human-compatable versions have to be produced.
All alien weapons are inherently unfit for humans to use.

A system like this has even more advantages. Right now, the aliens are outgunned by humans, because humans can always use the alien weaponry and additional weapons that aliens don´t have. With the Grenade Launcher and all the Sniper weapons humans have a clear advantage on the battlescape. When playing, one never can get the impression of the aliens having a superiour technology. Even worse, after some days of research we cannot only use the alien weapons, but also reproduce them.

And I don´t think we need other models. They are not detailed enough to prove they have to fit human needs.

[Crystan]

A system like this has even more advantages. Right now, the aliens are outgunned by humans, because humans can always use the alien weaponry and additional weapons that aliens don´t have. With the Grenade Launcher and all the Sniper weapons humans have a clear advantage on the battlescape. When playing, one never can get the impression of the aliens having a superiour technology. Even worse, after some days of research we cannot only use the alien weapons, but also reproduce them.

+1

And I don´t think we need other models. They are not detailed enough to prove they have to fit human needs.

"Hell yeah i finally can R&D a cool new weapon for my phalanx soldiers! Cant wait to see the new thing!!! Wow its ... its ... wait ... Its the same model?" *uninstalls game*

[TrashMan]

A couple of us have considered something similar, but to do it properly we would need to change our alien and weapon models. As it is, the Taman, Shevaar and Ortnok all have very humanoid hand/arm/eye relationships, and all of the models for alien weapons are pretty similar to human weapons.

Calling it "uncomfortable" for human use would look like a cheap hack unless it was backed up by the appearance of the aliens and weapons in-game.

Not really. "Similar" is not the same as "identical". Even slight differences can have a hefty impact.

Hell, even human-designed chairs for humans can be so different that one kills my back and the other is comfty and cozy.

[rodo]

Sorry to butt in, but I always thought that maybe an inteligent enemy such as an alien species that uses anti matter engines would have forseen humans using their weapons, and thus devise a fingerprint or dna check system to apply on the wielder.
After all they already use a device such as this on the Plasma G.

I concur that alien weapons used by humans should incurr in heavy accuracity problems, massive reloading times and that an adaptation for humans should be made available through research. This should make gameplay a lot harder, granted, but I would consider this to be a minor setback in the overall campaign progress once the hole story is developed.

[Nutter]

Gameplay is pretty much piss easy as it is. If you ignore the fact that the game won't spawn a single UFO in sight of your base untill half the planet surrenders.
Having to build your own versions of their guns wouldn't actually be all that bad.

Sorry to butt in, but I always thought that maybe an inteligent enemy such as an alien species that uses anti matter engines would have forseen humans using their weapons, and thus devise a fingerprint or dna check system to apply on the wielder.

Systems that could probably be broken after the device is fully examined by the professional staff in the lab.

[rodo]

Gameplay is pretty much piss easy as it is. If you ignore the fact that the game won't spawn a single UFO in sight of your base untill half the planet surrenders.
Having to build your own versions of their guns wouldn't actually be all that bad.

Systems that could probably be broken after the device is fully examined by the professional staff in the lab.

Yes, but that doesn't necesarily make the device useless or unnecesary at all, in fact aliens seem to have the tecnology prowess and manufacturing power to make masive deployments of such a countermeasure without even sweating.

[TrashMan]

You coudl use the same model for the human-re-designed alein weapons...or you could maek new ones.

IIRC; we have some extra models already and I can make more if necessary.

[djivi]

+!

I guess it might be possible to appease all parties with what is already there - different difficulty levels. Toughest level should be made *really* tough so it would be difficult for anyone, save/loader or otherwise.

+! indeed!

On the toughest level I would really *expect* to return from missions with an incomplete squad more often than not. (With the 8-soldier squad limit (of version 2.4 and before) being slightly raised, the immediate tactical penalty for losing a few soldiers should become bearable.) However, the pool of available recruits should then be large enough to compensate your losses, though definitely without being anywhere near unlimited. For example, arrange the pool as follows:

• A slightly larger pool of candidate recruits to start the game with. At the moment of hiring, wages up till the end of the month (proportionally) must be paid in advance, plus a one-time hiring bonus for each newly recruited soldier, to somewhat compensate the families they leave behind .
• Average stats of recruits in the pool should vary. Let's assume we have the list of candidates sorted by their average stats, ranging uniformly from pathetic to reasonable. Then the total number of acceptable candidates will be proportional to the pool size. With the pool becoming smaller, you can either take sissies or hold out till next month .
• The base pool size should be reduced as a penalty for soldiers lost in battle during the previous month.
• Make the number of available (new) recruits at the beginning of each new month proportional with the hiring bonus you will grant each newly recruited soldier, the next month. The player should be able to adapt the hiring bonus (in the financial statistics screen and/or the recruitment screen).

djivi

[Flying Steel]

As it is, the Taman, Shevaar and Ortnok all have very humanoid hand/arm/eye relationships, and all of the models for alien weapons are pretty similar to human weapons.

Calling it "uncomfortable" for human use would look like a cheap hack unless it was backed up by the appearance of the aliens and weapons in-game.

I agree and would recommend making plans to change these things in the future. The existing alien weapon models can be used as the human-made, human-ergonomic versions that you have to research for your squads. Then new, non-anthropomorphic aliens and xeno-ergonomic weapons can be used for the enemy.

The existing models are ancient and will best be replaced at some point anyway, so at that point there's an opportunity to give a truly alien look to both the weapons and the alien creatures themselves. You could even match the ergonomics of a particular weapon with the alien species that typically uses it. A creature with four arms featuring a radial array of a dozen digits would use a very different grip from one with eight flexible tentacles or a human.

[OllyG]

If soldiers got a large jump in statistics after each of their first few missions having a larger pool of recruits would be ok.  In this way all new recruits would be realativly weak and any surviving soldiers would be valuable for the player.  If the new recruits were more likely to die then loosing a few soldiers each battle would be acceptable to most players.  Let the new guys start further out from the dropship (distance from evacuation zone based on mind) or let the aliens preferentialy target them.
I think it would make the game more fun if the experienced soldiers survived better.  Having some cannon fodder is a good thing.  In base defence missions some security guards - whose day job is checking IDs - would be fun!

[homunculus]

if recruits cost money, then that is more than enough limit.
there is no way to make more money than the game gives you.
and that money is needed for building bases.
if money needs adjustments, then the selling prices of alien weapons could be adjusted.
so, why exactly should the soldier pool be limited?
to keep new players from spending too much money on soldiers?
there is also a possibility to increase soldier prices the more you recruit.

lots of dead soldiers is good, as in my opinion, humans should be swarming the tech-superior aliens rather than human butchering squad killing all aliens and trying not to get injured at all in the process.

the best solution to new recruits would be (this is probably a surprise) time unit costs of shooting depending on the number of shots of the firemode.
so sniper rifle would only have one firemode: snap shot, which would take, say, 10 time units.
then the soldier could assign time units for aiming (efficiency of aiming would depend on skill, and capped by weapon accuracy).
so, how would this alleviate the problems with new recruits?
1) new recruits can compete with veterans in number of shots.
2) new recruits go where less aiming is needed, i.e. close combat, but veterans will be used for shots that need more aiming.

[Anderty]

Dunno, In all tactical and squad based games I played (many... many.... MANY GAMES), I stick to 6 person in squad.

Tactical games with possibility to make more, I always ignored that and anyway made team with 6 persons. I don't know why, as well there's no significant difference, but 6 is great for me. So, no problem with current layout.

'bout xenonauts - I saw it - well, it's good. But why I want to help UFOAI project? Actually, I rly don't know. I love x-com, as well I can't see any big difference from all games (except shooter x-com... OMG, It's so wrong, but let's not speak bout that abomination), and I think it's great, as it's x-com core.

Still, there's something into UFOAI, something: mysterious. Xenonauts is nice, but UFOAI - Is great. Let's hope we'll make it DA BEST! XD

[Rodmar]

When maps are cluttered and large, and when AI is smart enough to try and flank you, I am happy to have 8, even 10-12 troopers.


Back to old X-COM, a 8-soldiers squad meant two 3-soldiers teams to explore and secure, and a 2-soldiers team long-range support in relative safety. An alien base with 6 guys only ? One guy per corridor then...

With UGVs, it was two 4-soldiers-plus-UGV teams, so basically the same as two of your favorite 6-soldiers teams, so that you had two such teams, which was handy to control large maps.