New to UFOAI have some questions / critisisms / suggestions

[homunculus]

Does anyone know what is actually wrong with the RF system? And I don't mean a description of what it doesn't do and what it should do. I'm asking about what is WRONG with the system itself.

maybe you could explain the question a bit?

if it is not about what it doesn't do, and it is not about what it should do, then maybe its is about what it does or what it shouldn't do?
somehow i feel that i didn't get it right.
maybe it is about whether it is ethical to rf?
what about reaction fire and marriage?

see, i have no clue about what you meant 

maybe it is that players say "wtf!!!" when they see an alien walking in front of 4 soldiers with rf.
and, you know, in the phrase 'wtf' there is the f-word, and the f-word is wrong.

[Edi]

What he's saying that if RF worked the way it is supposed to be working in the current mechanics, would there be anything wrong with that?

It's not working correctly at the moment, but if the RF bugs were ironed out, are the mechanics in and of themselves okay?

[homunculus]

basically what is being said here is that for, say, in the case of a 12 tu rf shot (according to the current wiki), the alien must run around in the line of sight of the soldier for 13..14 tu, which is like taking 4..7 steps.

if the alien shoots then it would look a bit better, because shooting would take more time units than moving.
but, if the alien's shot only took, say, 9 tu, then the alien would have 3 tu to jump back to cover without any risk of getting harmed by reaction fire even if your soldier could take the shot and live.
and this is because the soldier that was on reaction fire was waiting for the recoil tu before pulling the trigger.[...]

those two, somewhat related things.
plus burst reaction fire could get some special treatment maybe, if suddenly a swarm of contributing programmers appeared.

to put it short, it would be better if recoil did not happen before pulling the trigger.

[BTAxis]

Alright, so basically the whole system that delays a soldier's shot by the TUs necessary to use the firemode needs to go, if I've understood the above correctly.

I don't think shots should be instantaneous, though. There should be SOME delay that prevents soldiers from taking shots at enemies that are only briefly visible (e.g. only for one step before vanishing again). Ideas?

[homunculus]

Alright, so basically the whole system that delays a soldier's shot by the TUs necessary to use the firemode needs to go, if I've understood the above correctly.

I don't think shots should be instantaneous, though. There should be SOME delay that prevents soldiers from taking shots at enemies that are only briefly visible (e.g. only for one step before vanishing again). Ideas?

if the reaction fire does not depend on tu needed for the firemode, then people might start using as high tu shots (and as heavy weapons) as possible for reaction fire.
that might also look like an artifact.

earlier (buried somewhere in this thread) i was suggesting to treat movement tu-s and shooting tu-s differently so that reaction fire would happen earlier (as if in the middle of the time units of the fire mode) which turned out to be a half-baked suggestion.
based on this example in the wiki text http://ufoai.ninex.info/wiki/index.php/ReactionFireImprovements#What_should_be_changed.3F, the corrected version (which i really hope is corrected now) of my previous suggestion would be like this:

time units needed to trigger reaction fire are doubled for soldier A, and the rf-triggering effect of soldier B spending tu in los of soldier A is also doubled.
shots that involve recoil happen as if the bullet left the barrel at half the tu of the firemode (when the tu of the firemode are doubled, it produces no fractional numbers).

or tripled to get the effect that trigger is pulled after 1/3 tu units of aiming, and the remaining 2/3 tu is the recoil.
or quadrupled to get 1/4 ratio.

i hope that counting the rf delay on soldier A and the effect of soldier B spending tu multiple times would not be a problem.
counting the tu multiple times is the only difference from the wiki text.
then it would not look like soldier B is running a marathon while soldier A is waiting for recoil to be over before pulling the trigger, while reaction fire still depends on firemode tu.

[BTAxis]

Problem is, there's no real way of telling which firemodes use recoil and which don't.

[Edi]

I'd rather move it more toward the old system in that reaction fire TU reservation would be multiples of 6, 7 or 8 and the RF would trigger after a maximum of that much delay had passed, but possibly earlier if the soldier succeeds in some reaction checks (using perhaps a combo of mind and speed?).

In any case if there is to be a delay system, it needs to use a lot less than full TUs for firing a weapon.
In RF mode, the soldier is basically scanning an area and once something shows its head, blow it off.

Normal fire on the other hand is
1) moving to wherever
2) spotting something
3) getting into firing position
4) aiming
5) firing

which does justify a lot more TUs required. In RF, steps 1 and 3 are already eliminated and those two are the ones that take by far the most time. I know this from experience in the army.

[Brasher]

Once again, I effing LOVE this game and I'm only voicing this because it's the ONLY thing I've found unenjoyable, you guys have done outstanding in all other aspects that I've seen so far, thanks!... BUT...

You guys are making this simple system way too complicated.  In old X-COM games, it was designed with this in mind: both you and the enemy's turn was happening at the "same time", like a span of 10 seconds of combat (when both have moved their turns it completed 1 round).  Reaction fire was made perfectly and logicaly.  It was based on the soldier's reserved TUs vs the enemy's TUs with strength, stamina, and reaction being the modifiers for what took place.  The soldier's reaction stat (quickness) determined how well he responded to a threat first coming into view.  If he had 90 TU reserved he could make 3 snap shots costing 30 TU each in RF.  If an enemy came into view with 91 TUs and the exact same stats, he would not be able to fire yet as it is not in that time frame during the turn. If it popped into view with 90 or lower the soldier would make his first snap shot based on his own accuracy (unlike what i've noticed in UFO AI's system, I have had soldiers and aliens that couldn't hit the broad side of a barn turn into dead-eyes repeatedly in RF).  If the target survived or was missed, it could move to safety or return fire until it's TUs exceeded the soldier's next RF shot (60 TUs); in which he would snap off another.
On that same note, if the enemy came into the soldier's peripheral at 90 TUs, the soldier had to turn 45 degrees to face it , and the enemy's current path would be interupted with the opportunity to respond.  The soldier's Reserved TU's were deducted 1 point for the turn causing him not to have enough to pop off 3 shots (bringing him to 89 TUs reserved), and he could not shoot until the enemy made another move unless his reactions exceeded the target's.

If an enemy came into sight with 30 or less TUs, the soldier was able to wrap off all 3 shots or save the remainder if the first 1 or 2 killed it.  Again, the hit chance percentage was calculated as if you made that exact same shot on YOUR turn, the soldier didn't become a sniping-god-from-hell just because it was "YAY reaction fire time!"  If he had a short range weap, or couldn't aim for spit, it was best not to put him in that situation.  There were times when an enemy was "dug in" on reaction fire and you were forced to find other means of dealing with the problem.  That added excitment, so slap what ever whiner it was who swayed you from doing it like this and please fix it, it's broken hardcore.

Unfortunately, in UFO AI, I have stopped bothering with RF as it is absolutely illogical and worthless.  I've had many an alien waltz across wide open football-sized fields in front of my best troops lined up like a fireing squad with full TU's and varrying weapons, and not have one of them do anything more than smile and wave as it shoots at them and frollicks back to cover... yet the aliens seem to shoot at my troops (with better accuracy than if they were on their turn, almost god-like) with every step taken.  Pistols = 4 shots/steps, rifles = 2 shots/steps, and blasters = 1 shot.  I can't even begin to determine what was programmed for RF, it blows my mind as it appears to even lack consistency.  What's more is some how the alien keeps firing at its target, even if i move a soldier that is in a completely different part of the map.  Its like that alien just fired full-auto with a pistol on my soldier the split second it decided to engage RF... it makes no sense.  You've created a complicated in-game time paradox lol.  To combat this crap I've been hearing about waiting the full TU's to shoot what ever weapon is being carried because it "takes time to check target, aim, and fire, well it's the SAME CONCEPT for rounding a corner on YOUR OWN TURN and taking a shot.  Why should my troop's reactions be better when its on my turn?  TU's are supposed to represent "how much the character can perform in a set amount of time", and the factors governing the actions being taken should apply equally to both sides turns. But, the game is still playable if you modify your tactics to not rely RF for any reason, so if you decide to keep it like it is, oh well.  It just drastically reduces the strategic parameters of the tactical gameplay.

[Gantoris]

Alright, so basically the whole system that delays a soldier's shot by the TUs necessary to use the firemode needs to go, if I've understood the above correctly.

I don't think shots should be instantaneous, though. There should be SOME delay that prevents soldiers from taking shots at enemies that are only briefly visible (e.g. only for one step before vanishing again). Ideas?

My whole problem is that RF needs to be reliable, if i set soldiers up covering a doorway or corner i need to know that the area is covered and the aliens cant just waltz around it without challenge. There are many squad based games like UFO you can draw inspiration from and as Brasher pointed out the system in the original was just fine but if you want an original idea ill quote myself from earlier in the thread...

I think the TUs of the victim shouldn't even be a factor, what im gonna propose is basically your soldier goes into RF mode and readies his gun looking down the sights. This action will tighten his field of vision considerably, more so for scoped weapons such as sniper rifles, and any enemy walking into his field of vision becomes a target for RF which should be reliable. If people still think RF setting of immediately is to powerful then perhaps have a % chance of it procing very low when the victim enters LoS but rising very fast for every action taken say 10% when he enters LoS 25% if he takes a second step still in LoS 50% for a 3rd step 80% for a 4th and 100% for the 5th. This would give someone walking around a corner and encountering an enemy a chance to quickly duck back behind cover before being cut to pieces, attempting to shoot at someone set up ready with RF while in there LoS should proc it however. I think this would make it possible to not get totally cut to shreds by folks with RF but also avoid the madness of an alien walking around a corner right in front of 4 men with RF shooting 2 of them then walking away without even being attacked.

The idea that you have to use the same amount of TUs as someone set up covering an area before he will react is insane and quite obviously doesn't work, in games like this RF is the primary method of killing your opposition as it should be. Soldiers don't run and gun in real life they move into cover and shoot while there friends move into cover then shoot and vice versa. What would also be nice but probably a lot more difficult in terms of coding is taking control of the RF when it triggers and picking your target (limited to those in your direct LoS) and shot type. Any problems with certain weapons being overpowered in RF can be easily solved with tweeks and balancing of the specific weapons and there TU cost.

Something like that might just be the best of both worlds as you would have a chance to run back into cover upon stumbling on some aliens set up to fire (A visual que that someone is on RF would be nice such as them having there weapon raised ready to fire) but you could also rely on your men covering an area. The % chance to proc the RF could obviously be modified by various stats allowing someone with high speed to maybe be able to run from cover to cover past people with RF without being shot up to much. I do think you should only be able to shoot people u can directly see when you RF but i appreciate my ideas about fields of vision ect probably take a lot more coding than i can appreciate.

On an unrelated note as ive been playing further into the game there's a couple more small suggestions id like to make since a phalanx commander seems to be reading this now . The manufacturing system could use a little work, id like it to be similar to the research screen where u can assign your available workers to various projects running at the same time (amount of simultaneous projects could be limited to the amount of workshops in base perhaps). Also training facilities for troops/pilots (pilot stats/leveling would be great) would be great with different facilities for different stats, the idea of setting up a training base to train up fresh soldiers before moving them to your front line bases could be fun. Medical upgrades from alien tech would also be nice to speed up soldier recovery and also moar weapons! specifically in the sniper category, ive played quite far now and all my guys have got nice upgraded plasma type shenanigans to shoot with but the snipers are stuck with the starting sniper rifle.

[Battlescared]

I have not played the 2.3 dev build, so limited in what I can say, but I agree with the OP that there are plenty of solid examples of how to build a RF system that have been working since this genre was introduced, and UFO:AI indeed had a good system in 2.2 that I was more than happy with.  If that has changed, then it should be investigated to see if it's the design that is the problem, or if possibly a bug has been introduced that is breaking RF.

On the recoil issue, I don't see it for the first shot.  It's the soldiers reaction time that should determine his first shot and like the other posters here, I assume the soldier is sitting with his full allotted time ready to fire.  Something comes into view, he has a fraction of a second to determine friend or foe and then it's time to fire, and soldiers are trained to get that time to it's absolute minimum, definitely well below a second.  Recoil would affect his next shot as it would add time to how quickly he could retarget and fire.  The higher the soldiers stats, the better he would be at it.  But now you've also thrown out that FoF reaction time since he now knows what he's shooting at, so it equals out somewhat.  And what of lasers?  Rail guns?  Recoil isn't as high an issue in those systems than an explosive based weapon, so now you have to take into account the weapon.

This is overcomplicating it though.  Just be consistent, and to stay within the bounds of the current design, if I select an aimed shot, my RF time should be longer than if I tell him to snap shot the first thing that comes into view.   I don't see a need to penalize them.  Should there be an override based on how close the enemy is?  For example, he's told to take an aimed shot, but he sees the enemy across the field and the creature keeps coming at him, at some point he's going to react and let lose whether he has a good shot or not.  Maybe have RF dependent on how long the enemy has been in his sights?  Each step the enemy takes would increase the likelihood of being RF'd.  The longer it is, the higher probability that he will react.

It's true that RF can become OP, but it's not a good idea to OP the enemy either with an unrealistic god mode system where they can cross an entire field with no consequences.

[Gantoris]

My only problem with the 2.2 system was the use of the following turns TUs instead of the reserved TUs which seemed illogical to me, buy hey at least it was reliable. As for recoil that shouldn't even be an issue, why would recoil happen for RF and not for normal firing? As far as im concerned the technicalities of weapon firing are taken into account with the soldiers stats and his chance to hit just as it is.

[homunculus]

omg, peeps, lol.
what the wiki says and how the game works are somewhat different, aren't they?
what about assuming that the current reaction fire in the game is more like a placeholder, and that it is probably also like band-aid over band-aid?
how could it possibly work super well?
maybe the devs are not necessarily trying to make players suffer unjustly.
and also, the devs, at least some of them, are probably reading a lot more than they reply to.
but if you look at the title of this thread, that might be a deterrent.
you would expect that it starts with a statement about how nice and great the game is, then there would be a little rant (a bit less than 1 page), and then there would be some concluding words.
those kinds of threads are almost always the same.
so, we could have discussed things here quietly, according to the 'no one does it all by himself' rule, until we are able to say things that might make some sense, and say it short.
as you can see, devs are such creatures that understand one-liners best, and now we are pressed to it : )

Problem is, there's no real way of telling which firemodes use recoil and which don't.

you mean like, lasers do not have recoil?

i was not trying to split hairs (this time), the *bang* would always appear to happen uniformly in the middle of the firemode time units, same for all weapons and fire modes, no matter if the shot really has recoil or not.

for the system in the wiki, it seems tu would need to be counted anyway, could they be counted twice?
would it be possible to determine if soldier B is using time units for shooting or something else (it should be enough if soldier B knew what he is using his time units for)?

as far as lasers are concerned, and maybe flamers, etc, maybe that would be more like burst.
if you want burst to be treated in a special way, well, i was not trying to address that problem right now, maybe later some time : )

[DerKobold]

[..]
Unfortunately, in UFO AI, I have stopped bothering with RF as it is absolutely illogical and worthless.  I've had many an alien waltz across wide open football-sized fields in front of my best troops lined up like a fireing squad with full TU's and varrying weapons, and not have one of them do anything more than smile and wave as it shoots at them and frollicks back to cover... yet the aliens seem to shoot at my troops (with better accuracy than if they were on their turn, almost god-like) with every step taken.  Pistols = 4 shots/steps, rifles = 2 shots/steps, and blasters = 1 shot.  I can't even begin to determine what was programmed for RF, it blows my mind as it appears to even lack consistency. 

A stupid question maybe... did RF change somewhere in the dev builds in 2010? I play I think a dev-build from March-April 2010 (have to look it up) and as I said RF is pretty useless in the beginning, but starts to work again relatively consistentlyafter a few months when your soldiers have seen a few ten battles. AT least I really rely on it when storming harvesters nowadays, as I just flank from both sides of the wings and wait for stupid aliens to come out. Afterwards I enter and most of the time (due to the fact that they only see me in the last instant) the aliens get no chance at RF.

And acutally RF with Lasers if relatively godlike , too, especially on short to medium ranges.

But I agree that the fact that you and/or aliens can fire on someone, who does not trigger RF is somewhat strange.

Kobold

[homunculus]

the wiki says:

  Reactionfire

    * [done] Reactionfire problems and enhancements.
          o [done] server-side logic? (There is a Gameplay Proposal I think - pretty complex stuff though.)
          o [open] Check if the important stuff mentioned here Gameplay Proposals/ReactionFireBlueprint + Talk is implemented correctly.

ironic that i have computer problems atm and cannot try it out.

as far as the Gameplay Proposals/ReactionFireBlueprint is concerned, i think there is something that seems to be missing in that text.

you know, there are firemodes that take like 7 tu or less, and then there are firemodes that take like 21 tu or more.
if, say, soldier B shoots a slow firemode shot, does soldier A get more than one reaction fire shot if soldier A is using a quick enough firemode for reaction fire?

[TrashMan]

Shouldn't the agility/initiative have an effect here?

Honestly, it's difficult to simulate this with action points and turns (UFO: Aftershck did a good job tough).

the way I see it, it should go something like this.

Between two combatants, the one with higher agility/mind/initiative goes first...usually.

So let's say A walks into the field of view of B and C, and they both have RF set.
Even if A has the highest initiative of the 3, B and C and primed and ready, while A isn't. So usually, B or C would get to shoot first (being in RF mode can grant a small initiative bonus). The difference between the initiative can determine the course of action.

Let's say A has the highest initiative 90, B has 84 and C has 70. The difference between A and B is only 6 points, so A can spend 6 TU's before B fires. Since it's not enough to shoot, he can try moving, and as soon as 6 TU's are spent, B fires. If A were to try to fire, B would shoot first.

Either that, or initiative can simply determine the order in which combatants get to spend their TU's...or something else.