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Author Topic: Reducing fatalities - introducing incapacitating injuries+game play consequences  (Read 5790 times)

Offline Viento

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I did a form search and it turned up no real hit. So I hope this hasn't been discussed to death before. Please don't flame me if is was mentioned before. :)

I am at a stage in the game where almost every hit means a serious wound for my soldiers, often death.

I personally find the death rate too high and I quit the game quite often after another frustrating loss of one of my really good guys. I started as the type of player who accepted losses but at that stage of the game I can't win with newbies and I simply don't want to lose my "almost skill 60" soldiers any more.  

This is my proposal:

I would like to have a status between "standing and able to fight" and "lying on the ground, dead": the "state of being incapacitated but alive". This status would mean that the injured soldier is on the ground, unable to move, unconscious but not dead yet.  

Reason1: Human beings are quite hard to kill in reality and combat wounds, if properly (and quickly) looked after, are often not lethal at once, if intensive aftercare is applied fast. It is astonishing what kind of damage the human body can take without stopping to work, if there is a fast reaction. Since we are a few years in the future, medical capabilities could have increased, too.  

Reason2: Death rates later in the game are becoming increasingly frustrating in my personal opinion

An incapacitated soldier he has the following options:

> if untreated: die (e.g. bleed out, losing hitpoints per round)
> if stabilized by a medic with medical equipment: remain stable (or just deteriorate slower, e.g. lose less HP per round)
> if looked after while the fight continues (check vital signs, stabilise again, etc) the chances should be quite good to survive.
> an incapacitated person can never get back into the fight in which he was incapacitated.
> he/shecan be killed by taking further damage.


The consequences for survivors:

> soldier should take a very long time to heal in the base hospital. (closer to months than weeks, in my opinion).



Advatages:

> more realism: If you find a wounded person as a soldier, you don't often know what is wrong. It is not visible whether somebody is dead, unconscious, etc... . So you check (=> "check patient" option in the medipack?). It would be a realistic turn to check fallen comrades whether they are still alive. It would add tension to the game.

> the race against the clock: Imagine a soldier is shot early in the mission. He is stabilized but the mission lasts longer and longer. You might find yourself in a situation in which you want to abort the mission and take the wounded back home (=> not implemented yet, but I guess one time you will be able to extract your soldiers). Another consequence could be that you take more risks to speed up the mission, which can be quite tense, too.

> base design: If you have to take the stabilized wounded back to your base, it would make sense to put hospitals in every base, so that the distances are short. I'm not yet sure whether the ability to die during transport wouldn't be doing more harm to motivation than the next option: just assume that soldiers - after the mission has ended - are transported to the next local facility and later are transferred back to Phallanx hospitals. So no further damage is counted after the mission ends.  

> progression of field medical skills/equipment: There could be a progression in mediacl equipment as well, like we can see it in weapons' technology. Medikits could be developed to counter the new types of inflicted wounds after a new weapon was discovered. I would like to have some research on this "front", too.

Okay, that's it. I'm curious what you think.

Andreas
« Last Edit: December 11, 2009, 04:25:43 pm by Viento »

Offline Destructavator

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I agree, I know of cases where people get shot in the head and survive, although they never work in military/security/law enforcement/whatever again.

I know there are plans for implants, whether you call them "bionic," "cyberware," or other such names that will eventually be in the game and enhance soldier abilities and endurance.  It isn't implemented yet, but when it gets into the game it will likely change things.  IIRC the hospital base building will eventually be useful for that.

...But yes, I think you have some valid points - How much coding work it would take I don't know.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2009, 03:41:36 pm by Destructavator »

Offline geever

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Bleeding is being implemented by criusmac (see Medikits thead from page 7).

Some points of your proposal (like 'check patient') are overkill IMHO but in general it's okay (I don't know if that was planned already though)

-geever

Offline criusmac

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The direct link to page 7 of the medikits thread is http://ufoai.ninex.info/forum/index.php?topic=2216.90

My todo list is located at http://ufoai.ninex.info/forum/index.php?topic=2216.135 .

It has grown a bit though. I feel it may be needed to determine how badly hurt someone is, more than just their hit points. I'm not sure of this though...

I think the problem you specifically are hoping to have fixed will be done during balancing, and not by the actual coding I'm doing. All I had planned was changing the medikits a bit to introduce bleeding wounds, and less of a recovery from wounds in the field. This means my changes will make it easier to die than currently, which is the opposite of what you hope...

Offline Viento

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criusmac, I still like the idea you are working at because bleeding-damage is an important part of game play in my opinion.

It wasn't my aim to leave out realistic aspects (like bleeding) out in order to decrease casualties... but to propose the introduction of another status which will - if implemented - increase the survivability again. So it is no problem to decrease chances of survival just now by your (sensible) changes.

Thank you for the direct link. :)

Andreas


Offline theotherhiveking

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I really like the idea!

Imho it would be better if the aliens liked to hunt, now they just hide, it would add certain emotion to rush your medic there to see if you can save it.
Also, if implants are implemented soon (ugv, ugh...) maybe only the really wounded soldiers you put on the really nice ones, that would encourage fair play.

Offline criusmac

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Hunting aliens would require a rewrite of the AI, which I think is happening, but I don't know how.

I think eventually they are trying to get lua scripting so that people can code the AI without having to touch the c code, but that's a long way off from what I understand.

An upgradeable AI would be a great thing. Every AI I've ever written has, well, been so bad, it could not hope to beat a monkey randomly hitting keys on the keyboard. Actually, I tend to get polished off easily by most well written AIs in strategy games.

If you want a hunting AI, probably the first thing you should do is choose how you want the AI to behave in any given circumstance. Mainly, what sets a hunting AI apart from any other random AI?

Do they tend to stick together? Do they rush the enemy when they see the enemy? Do they take pop shots off from a distance?

Myself, I take pop shots from a distance. I favour sniper rifles, with only a few assault guns for when they creep within close range. I shoot at things with a 1-5% chance to hit, and I love large groups of aliens since even if I miss what I'm aiming for, I might hit something else. Currently, my favourite weapon is the rocket launcher since it's very accurate, and if I miss, the explosions tend to not miss.

Offline Viento

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Interesting strategy, criusmac.

I tend to play the game differently, I realized. :)

My strategy is: attack with a small group (Close Combat Specialists with grenades+small arms) and keep the covered with heavy weapons (machine guns, snipers). If the enemy tries to engage my attackers, they face reaction fire from the 2nd fire team. If the cover team moves, attackers don't, so they provide cover (reaction) fire.

Works brilliantly until the enemy gets heavy needlers and the other ultraheavy guns (and I still have the lousy armour).

So perhaps I should try your less aggressive strategy.

Andy 

Offline skarg

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or even a researchable upgrade -the "medi helmet" or something -im not so good with names.
"-commander the hospital doctors and some techs got together to collaborate on a new device,
when it senses a criticall injury it injects coagulants and sedatives to prolong the persons life until help arrives"
some device you could research and build that would attach to the soldiers gear to reduce death rate or something
of course it would only reduce chances of death and come with some weight penalty.
(nothing should really save a soldier from a tamman doing a "burst fire" with a rifle at point blank range)

perhaps this could be implemented with some sort of "negative" hp allowance
full hp to 1 - active, but with debilitating injuries??
"'Tis but a scratch.
A scratch? Your arm's off!
No, it isn't.
Well, what's that then?
I've had worse.
You liar!
Come on you pansy!"

hp in 0 to negative allowance - unconscious perhaps with a "subtract something each round" effect
hp < negative allowance -death

the medi helmet or whatever could then simply add some value to the negative allowance
or make it a percentage of their full health value so it varies by soldier.

grist for the mill

Offline joe davis

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Didn't XCOM UFO Defense have a medipack that checked injuries on the soldier and if it was in the leg it would show a red leg on the medipack, etc. and you could stop that injury from bleeding and then heal it.  And wasn't another function of the medipack to calm your soldier down after it started wigging out?  Didn't the soldiers become unconscious, prior to dieing in that game, if they bled out, instead of just being killed instantly?  And if you couldn't get to them in time they would let out that same death keel as they did when they died any other way?  Left ya with that OMG feeling, I was just about to get to him, NOOOOO!