Latest real-world weaponry

[Captain Bipto]

Unless the devs are planning on allowing stealthy raids into alien bases there is not point for these 'stealth' weapons.

[BTAxis]

UFO:AI isn't, and won't be about stealth. That said, I do have plans to develop a system that allows actors to be hidden in shadows and generally be hard to spot. This isn't meant for sneaking up, it's more for firing from a hidden location.

[Captain Bipto]

So a system where one actor may not always see another actor due to cover, lighting etc?


EDIT: Or would it be more for allowing a dude a higher chance of getting his rxn fire off before the target can do anything?

[BTAxis]

No, mainly lighting and visibility. There's a proposal.

[Captain Bipto]

Thanks for the link, I see what you meant. The system with the 10 rays. Having IR goggles would help increase the soldiers base detection ability which would help counter the stealth bonus given to a partially obscured target?

[BTAxis]

I really haven't thought about the IR goggles much, but as far as I'm concerned they should give you a general indication of sources of heat, without identifying them specifically. Night vision, on the other hand, would increase detection ability at night (and decrease it by day).

[Captain Bipto]

Why separate the goggles into IR and Night vision goggles?

[BTAxis]

I don't like the idea of one piece of equipment doing everything. It's hard enough as it is to find more uses for the headgear slot.

[Frungy]

I really like the [in]visibility system you've proposed.

Just to put what follows in perspective I'd like to outline some basic stats. A single block is 1.3 meters (http://ufoai.ninex.info/wiki/index.php/Mapping/Dimensions), and takes 2 TUs to move in standing position. What that means in terms of this discussion is that if Actor A can see 10 meters further than Actor B, then Actor B will have to move forward 8 blocks (7.7 blocks rounded up) at a cost of 16 TUs in order to see Actor A. For an average Joe 16 TUs represents 1/2 a round (assuming a standard 30 TUs), and allows enough time over to reserve multi-shot reactive fire (14TUs), or fire a burst or similar attack from most basic weapons, or a single snap shot with some TUs left over for crouching and turning (but not enough to reserve any reactive fire).

Here are the dissection notes for each of the aliens in question:
Taman - "The large, overdeveloped eyes equip the Taman with natural night-vision. It has special irises that protect the retinas from bright light such as sunlight, but if a sudden blast of highly intense illumination were to hit the retina before the iris can adjust, it could cause prolonged or even permanent blindness. Our flashbang may be highly effective here." (http://ufoai.ninex.info/wiki/index.php/Aliens/Taman)
Ortnok - "The eyes are covered with surgically-implanted lenses that improve the Ortnok's already excellent vision, stretching it into the infrared spectrum. The ears consist of a series of small cavities, three on either side of the head, which are surprisingly large and well-developed. Given the evidence we must conclude that Ortnoks have acute hearing..." (http://ufoai.ninex.info/wiki/index.php/Aliens/Ortnok)
Sheevar - "Behind the curls of bone there is a set of three organs that seem to detect infrared radiation. This is apparently what the Shevaar uses in lieu of eyes. We conclude that the sensitivity of these organs is roughly comparable to that of a human wearing PHALANX-standard IR Goggles." (http://ufoai.ninex.info/wiki/index.php/Aliens/Shevaar)

For those who don't want to flip between BTAxis's proposal and this page here are his suggested detection scores:
Species     Day     Night
Human    50    25
Ortnok    60    60
Taman    25    75
Shevaar    50    50
Hovernet    75    75

Okay, sorry for the long pre-amble.

1. Implications for equipment
The autopsies suggest that Shevaar vision is the same as IR goggles, and Taman vision is like night vision goggles. What this means for game play is that, while humans have lousy natural night vision the simple addition of goggles could boost their night vision to 50 or 75. This is a BIG jump. 75 is probably too high and probably not what BTAxis intended, I'm guessing that the number would be closer to 50.

2. The differences are too big
Okay, no offense BTAxis, but the differences in detection values are simply too high. The Ortnok to Human difference during day-time (Ortnok 60, Human 50) represents 16 TUs spent just to close the vision difference. That seems like a fair number to me, enough to make things tense, not enough to mean that you're a meat pinata to an opponent you can never get close enough to see. I'd suggest a 120% cap on the spread.

To justify my position lets look at the 25 meter (19 blocks) difference between a Human and a Taman during the day. This means that a Taman has to move 38 TUs to find the human who is shooting at him. This means 1 round of fire when the Taman has no clue who is shooting at him, and then possibly another round of undefended reactive fire while the Taman advances. The situation is reversed at night for Human vs Taman with the Human having to move a massive 76 TUs (2 1/2 rounds) before they even see the Taman who is riddling them full of holes. Being shot by a totally anonymous blob out somewhere on the screen is simply not fun.

I'd suggest modifying the values so that the gap is no more than 120%. This will make the game a lot more fun... of course aliens can have amazingly poor vision, I really don't mind, but it does make it a bit like shooting fish in a barrel, and I object when I'm the fish.

3. Movement and Firing
It would be nice if each TU you used increased your visibility, so if you run 10TUs then fire a 14TU burst and are 60 meters from your opponent then your visibility would be 60m - 24 = 36 visibility, easy to see.

4. Ranges for weapons
50 detection for humans means that you can see 50m, which means that all sniper shots will be at close range. A possible fix for this is to implement scopes on certain weapons. You were saying that there wasn't enough headgear equipment. What about binoculars, or scopes as headgear (Yes, I know this may seem a little strange, but thing about it like this, you can't use the scope on your sniper rifle and your IR goggles at the same time, you have to choose one). Basically some weapons would come flagged as 'scoped', and occupy the headgear slot automatically with a scope. Using the scope would multiply your basic sight range by the weapon's range as a %, for example a weapon with 250m range would make a human's detection change from 50 to 125, but possibly at a cost such as being unable to move while using a scope (ever tried to move while looking through a scope... best case you get a blinding headache, worst case you break both legs trying to jump a rock that is actually 100 meters away), so you need to 'activate' the scope to aim, then 'deactivate' it when you want to shift position.

Other headgear ideas (because you mentioned you wanted more):
- Shades - because they're cool. Might increase detection a little during day.
- HUD (Heads Up Display) - May be required for some high-tech weapons to manipulate the control interface and monitor variables like radiation emissions, heat levels, and that thingy that goes ping.
- Eye Movement Tracking Unit - A unit that tracks eye movement and assists with auto-targeting of weapons. Basically if you can see your target then it helps you aim. Could provide ballistic information for grenade launchers on ideal arc, etc.

[BTAxis]

Okay, no offense BTAxis, but the differences in detection values are simply too high.

The values in the proposal are by no means "intended". They're only there for the sake of explanation.

3. Movement and Firing
It would be nice if each TU you used increased your visibility, so if you run 10TUs then fire a 14TU burst and are 60 meters from your opponent then your visibility would be 60m - 24 = 36 visibility, easy to see.

I was thinking of something like that too, except I'd just make it binary. You stay still -> you get a bonus. You move -> you don't.

4. Ranges for weapons
50 detection for humans means that you can see 50m, which means that all sniper shots will be at close range. A possible fix for this is to implement scopes on certain weapons. You were saying that there wasn't enough headgear equipment. What about binoculars, or scopes as headgear (Yes, I know this may seem a little strange, but thing about it like this, you can't use the scope on your sniper rifle and your IR goggles at the same time, you have to choose one). Basically some weapons would come flagged as 'scoped', and occupy the headgear slot automatically with a scope. Using the scope would multiply your basic sight range by the weapon's range as a %, for example a weapon with 250m range would make a human's detection change from 50 to 125, but possibly at a cost such as being unable to move while using a scope (ever tried to move while looking through a scope... best case you get a blinding headache, worst case you break both legs trying to jump a rock that is actually 100 meters away), so you need to 'activate' the scope to aim, then 'deactivate' it when you want to shift position.

Actually, I was planning to abstract from this. A sniper would be able to fire at an enemy that was technically out of its sight range as long as it was in range of the weapon and there was a clear shot. If not, indirect fire weapons would be put at an advantage, since they can be fired at a location that's "blind" to the soldier, but not to the player.

[Frungy]

The values in the proposal are by no means "intended". They're only there for the sake of explanation.

Ahh, okay. If/when you get to final implementation I'd still say that visibility differences should only translate to about 15 or so TUs, otherwise you end up hunting ghosts, which isn't much fun.

I was thinking of something like that too, except I'd just make it binary. You stay still -> you get a bonus. You move -> you don't.

Would it be possible to reasonably easily code moving/firing less than 1/2 TUs? Here's the logic. Double reactive fire is described as the cost of a soldier moving slowly and carefully, so if someone uses less than 1/2 their TUs (excluding provision for reactive fire) then they're moving slowly and carefully. It means you're not discouraging any movement, just encouraging players to move slowly and carefully. It means more fun because people aren't just hitting "end turn" every round to keep their soldiers hidden, but it keeps the pace of the game tense.

Actually, I was planning to abstract from this. A sniper would be able to fire at an enemy that was technically out of its sight range as long as it was in range of the weapon and there was a clear shot. If not, indirect fire weapons would be put at an advantage, since they can be fired at a location that's "blind" to the soldier, but not to the player.

Yay! There'll be a reason for my sneaky spotter scouts again!

Sorry about all the math in the last post, I thought that was a firm proposal and when I saw it I immediately converted it into TUs and went, "Nooooo!" .

P.S. Off topic: *ahem* I'm probably a moron, but where do I download the latest development build? I'm running Windows XP, and most of the development mirrors are labelled stuff like Ubuntu and Debian.

[BTAxis]

Mind you, part of the reason I want this whole system in the first place IS so you can get shot by enemies you can't see (yet). It happened in X-COM a lot, and it added to the scary atmosphere. Especially at night (disregarding mechanical aid for a moment), I don't think you should be able to see aliens only a few steps after they see you. After all, it's not as if aliens will always take pot shots at you all the time. Add to this alien aggressiveness: in a future AI they should actively engage the player, as opposed to hiding all the time. It won't be hunting ghosts. The ghosts will be hunting you.

You can get the latest development version through SVN, though there are people who post snapshot installers in the Windows forum. These are quickly outdated, though.

[Frungy]

That sound hellishly scary!! ... but also incredibly cool. I like the idea of having the aliens hunting you, I hate having to play hunt the last alien who is hiding in the furthest, darkest, least accessible square of the map ... and then shoots you when you finally find him because you've split your team across the entire map and have been a little less cautious because the entire exercise is sooooo boring.

Thanks for the tip on finding the build. I'll install now.

P.S. I realise I'm waaaay off topic here. Sorry.

[BTAxis]

Right, this discussion didn't really belong in this thread. Carry on.

[Captain Bipto]

What sort of weapon extensions are planned for the game? Under barrel shotguns and grenade launchers? Scopes? I did not see anything regarding extensions in the wiki cept for the gui comment.

EDIT: @ BTAxis this is not my game, but separating the different vision goggles does not make sense from anything but your rationale that you do not want items doing too many (or in this case everything) things. I respectfully disagree. You are already going to have the goggles incur a penalty to accuracy IIRC, walls the aliens hide behind are not destructable and it costs TU to switch between modes (though not to use IIRC). The penalties for using the gear will probably stop people from equipping their entire squad with goggles, per the UFOpaedia it is recommended only half the team uses it to begin with AND snipers can't use them anyhow. instead of passive use, I would make using the goggles take some sort of TU to representing fiddling with them to get a better picture.

I suggest either:
1.) obsolete these goggles during the course of the story through upgraded alien countermeasures, or
2.) do not make them 100% reliable.

I think the first option is better.