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Author Topic: Latest real-world weaponry  (Read 43738 times)

hotdog

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Re: Latest real-world weaponry
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2008, 07:05:50 pm »
The AK-47 is still king of the assault rifles for a very good reason.

Regards,
Winter

I here tales of the Chinese, Russians, and even some cases of Americans making the AK-47 and selling it to them. Who actually made it? I always thought it was Russia.

Offline Mayhem

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Re: Latest real-world weaponry
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2008, 08:35:59 am »
The original was designed by Anatoli(?) Kalashnikov for the soviet army.  But like many succesful firearms, its production has been licenced to a large number of other countries.

Offline TroubleMaker

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Re: Latest real-world weaponry
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2008, 01:37:10 pm »
The AK-47 is still king of the assault rifles for a very good reason.
Agree. I was very wondered why it is not in PHALANX' armory?
Well, 47 and its later (74 and so on) modifications aren't intended for long-range deatmatch-style shooting duels, but it is highly usable for short- and mid-range combats.
I could kill an armed deserter with butt-less version of AK-74 within distance of approx 50 meters or so, just after he launched "underbarrel" grenade to our jeep. There were very unpleasing feelings after the grenade explodes near me, killing our driver and guys at rear part of vehicle. I was the only survived.
The version mentioned is often used by paratroopers and local police forces ("militia" in Russian) because of its compact size.

Offline shevegen

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Re: Latest real-world weaponry
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2008, 11:25:41 pm »
Quote
these new acoustic weapons they are coming out with.. less than lethal my ass...

Not always need a weapon be deadly.

The marketing folks advertize weapons which cripple people as "non lethal weapons". Which is a
shame because there are people who have lost one eye due to a "soft" bullet.

The worst weapon ever designed as "non lethal" were taser weapons. They actually make
the guys who use them be less restrictive when they use them.

I think the term "non lethal" should be removed from taser weapons. They are only less likely
to cause death compared to an "old school" bullet to the head.

Offline Darkpriest667

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Re: Latest real-world weaponry
« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2008, 12:23:37 pm »
The problem with modern firearms is that we've hit sort of a development roadblock. There's not a hell of a lot you can do with guns that hasn't already been done without making them LOTS more complicated to service and repair. The P90 is powerful, yes, but a bit of a darling. The G11 is also not exactly a prime candidate for easy field-stripping. The AK-47 is still king of the assault rifles for a very good reason.

Regards,
Winter

I own one I know..... Its certainly still #1 in every professional soldier's book.. It is definitly #1 in mine... reliability in the field is everything.... this beautiful piece of wood and steel has performed time and time again.. flawlessly....

Cutaway

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Re: Latest real-world weaponry
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2008, 01:52:58 am »
I own one I know..... Its certainly still #1 in every professional soldier's book.. It is definitly #1 in mine... reliability in the field is everything.... this beautiful piece of wood and steel has performed time and time again.. flawlessly....

Or any other AK derivative

But there IS a better rifle than the AK here, The Korobov TKB-517 which was externally similar but more accurate, reliable, easier to produce & maintain. Only got the knock becouse the Soviet forces were used to the Kalashnikov rifles. This is the one that should have been:
http://talks.guns.ru/forummessage/36/088054-5.html

A bullpup variant of it would be cool.

« Last Edit: August 19, 2008, 01:55:41 am by Cutaway »

Offline Mayhem

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Re: Latest real-world weaponry
« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2008, 09:22:09 am »
Of course, realistically speaking there is no "best" assault rifle.

Only "best for this circumstance".

The circumstance of equipping a massive army that's going to operate for extended time in the field with minimal logistical support?  Probably the AK.

The circumstance of arming rag-tag geurilla armies who are going to have zero maintainance facilities?  Probably the AK.

The circumstance of arming a small, ultra-elite team who will have excellent logistical support and regular access to high-tech facilities?  You can probably do better.

The circumstance of wanting something that will function as an assault rifle but that can also be held under the arm to give a shorter profile better for use in confined spaces?   Something with a bullbup configuration - not an AK.

The circumstance of wanting an assault rifle that can also be used for accurate long range sniping?  Not an AK.

Now they've worked the bugs out of it, I have a passing fondness for the SA-80 for those situations.  Wouldn't want it for large armies in the field, (thought the UK Armed forces have chosen it for that role) but Its bull-pup layout makes it equally handy for room-clearance and its one of the few assault rifles that comes, as standard, with an optical scope and is accurate enough to warrant it.

Not particularly familiar with the modern M-16s, though again I would assume that after so many years of use in the field they have gotten it working pretty well.

Steyr's AUG range always seemed attractive, and pleasingly "high tech", especially the modular design allowing the same components to be used for LMGs, ARs and SMG.  Ought to be worth something in the field, that, though I have no direct experience of them.  From the look of the graphics, that's what Phalanx's AR is based on. 


hotdog

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Re: Latest real-world weaponry
« Reply #22 on: August 23, 2008, 12:44:58 am »
I concur.

If the AK-47 were the best gun period then no other gun would have been made/upgraded. Why bother if they already had the "best"?

Now it is, as Mayhem stated, the best in certian situations/circumstances. But I want a magnum 44 as the handgun rather than the one we get in game :D

I know I might be going off topic a little here but I think using real guns as a basis for guns in the games future is definetlely an option that should be looked at.

A magnum .44? No. A magnum .44 that has a 12 round clip of slugs and a scope (IR Gogs cure this) for night time. Yes.

I doubt weapons would drastically change rather than just get modified. I would go so far as to propose they look at a Shadowrun book for weapons ideas. That game is supposed to take place not too far into the future as well and the weapons are rather realistic. As stated before they are just real weapons that are in use with modifications to them for the games setting.

JerryLove

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Re: Latest real-world weaponry
« Reply #23 on: August 23, 2008, 02:55:55 am »
The last poster raises an interesting quesstion, though I don't think he intended it.

Is it better to use specific weapons or to use weapon classes?

"AK-47" or just "Assault Rifle"?

While games like Fallout Tactics do have enough variation in weapons to justify the differences, this game is a bit less specialized (we don't need 5 types of shotgun).

Of course, if it weren't for the requirement to make these items in 3D (could we use generic 3D objects for all assault rifles and then easily made 2D objects for the interface?) it would be easy, if potentially confusing for the player, to add many.

Offline Mayhem

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Re: Latest real-world weaponry
« Reply #24 on: August 23, 2008, 11:57:52 am »
The games generic weaponry is fine, IMO, since:

1)  Its assumed that the experienced master-at-arms of PHALANX have already chosen the best weapon from those available for the missions they envision PHALANX engaging in.

2) It avoids any arguments from gun-nuts saying "why do Phalanx use the Steyr AUG?  Everyone knows that the HK-G17 is a better rifle.  Blah blah blah...

3) It avoids any question of a particular model of weapon/calibre of ammunition becoming obsolete within the games lifetime.  Not very likely, admittedly, but if a new firearm innovation did sweep the market next year - one of those "god its obvious now somebody has thought of it" sweeping improvements that do, occasionally, happen in any field - UFO AI won't be left with tech that would clearly be obsolete in the year that the game is set in.

hotdog

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Re: Latest real-world weaponry
« Reply #25 on: August 23, 2008, 09:11:16 pm »
Trust me on this one as I say this as a dev for a game mod that uses multiple specific weapons. It's better to use generics. I was actually talking about models/science behind the weapons. It would add a unique feel to the game if they used their own modified real world weapons like the magnum with slugs as stated above. They could still call it a pistol/handgun but the model and science behind it would add a unique feel to the game. Rather then the Rainbow Six series that I only played like 2 games out of because I was bored of seeing the SAME weapons I saw in EVERY other game.

A beretta works fine but it really doesn't do anything for the game to use it as a model for the handgun. What would be cool though is to make their own variation of said model (or another) and call it a pistol and then possibly put some science behind it so it adds that unique feel. Science is not required or even history but just having a model that is unique would really do loads more for the game than using what every other game already uses. For instance that rocket launcher is so damn generic it makes me want to punch my monitor. Why not use a cooler type of launcher? The sci-fi dimensions of the game would allow you to get away with it.

Plus you would be able to call them your own. Not many games have a rifle that shoots a rocket but looks like a 1918 model right? ;)

But that leads me down another tangent. The one about being able to MAKE your own weapons. It would be awesome to see a game editor utility for the final release that would allow people to make their own maps, weapons, and other equipment easier than it is to do now. Think in terms of NWN. I would gladly pound out models for that if it ever happens.

Back on topic what I would really like to see is humans rather than scraping together alien weapons improve on their own. Like the development of the plasma grenades for the GL. More of that would be pretty cool beans. Like railgun ammo for the shotgun or even take the assault rifle and add that plasma blade on the end bayonet style. Thus giving you two options when up close. 8 shots or use the plasma blade.

Sophisanmus

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Re: Latest real-world weaponry
« Reply #26 on: September 01, 2008, 03:33:18 am »
I don't much care for the idea of jury-rigging alien weapons to existing ones, but I am a fan of opening up new ammunition types for existing weapons using alien weaponry.  The Kerrblade tree could perhaps lead to a new set of monomolecular fragmentation grenades, then shotgun shells, and finally Monomolecular Sniper/COIL rounds. 

From reading the plotline post(s), it seems that the aliens, while significantly advanced technologically than humans, seem not to have considerable experience with battlefield tactics against a capable opponent, and the imagination behind our more specialized, and brutal, weapons.  Though PHALANX is starting well behind the curve, it seems that there is plenty of opportunity for them to redesign and overcome the shortcomings of the alien weaponry.  Of course, I could see the aliens producing similarly versatile weapons in some cases after seeing what the humans have accomplished, or after capturing some from a botched mission, but this could lead to an interesting arms race and escalation of conflict in the mid- to late-game, an element past X-COM games have lacked to some extent (later in the game the aliens would pull out some nastier toys, but not obviously developed to compete/counter human weapons and tactics).

Offline TrashMan

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Re: Latest real-world weaponry
« Reply #27 on: September 01, 2008, 10:44:05 am »
I concur.

If the AK-47 were the best gun period then no other gun would have been made/upgraded. Why bother if they already had the "best"?

Now it is, as Mayhem stated, the best in certian situations/circumstances. But I want a magnum 44 as the handgun rather than the one we get in game :D

I know I might be going off topic a little here but I think using real guns as a basis for guns in the games future is definetlely an option that should be looked at.

A magnum .44? No. A magnum .44 that has a 12 round clip of slugs and a scope (IR Gogs cure this) for night time. Yes.

Maybe a AK derivate weapon for the normal army soldiers? Sometimes it is good to have things there for flavor, even if there are no great differences in performance.

Hm...I envision a futuristic version of Automag V  :o

Offline Winter

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Re: Latest real-world weaponry
« Reply #28 on: September 05, 2008, 10:00:21 am »
From reading the plotline post(s), it seems that the aliens, while significantly advanced technologically than humans, seem not to have considerable experience with battlefield tactics against a capable opponent, and the imagination behind our more specialized, and brutal, weapons.  Though PHALANX is starting well behind the curve, it seems that there is plenty of opportunity for them to redesign and overcome the shortcomings of the alien weaponry.  Of course, I could see the aliens producing similarly versatile weapons in some cases after seeing what the humans have accomplished, or after capturing some from a botched mission, but this could lead to an interesting arms race and escalation of conflict in the mid- to late-game, an element past X-COM games have lacked to some extent (later in the game the aliens would pull out some nastier toys, but not obviously developed to compete/counter human weapons and tactics).

This is exactly the feel I'm going for. And you're right, the aliens will be displaying more battlefield creativity when we get some more textured weapon models in. I still need to do writeups for the needler and coilgun, I've just been swamped lately.

Aaaanyway. I've wanted to model a believable development/counter-development spiral ever since I saw it done really really well in an old strategy game called Spellcross. In SC you start out fighting with modern human weapons against wizards, ballistas and orcs with axes. You research scientific stuff like railguns and powered armour as well as recovered magical materials, and as your units get more powerful you start seeing new enemies like cannon towers and anti-tank orcs with fantasy bazookas. You really get a feeling that the enemy are learning from you as well as you from them, and it's been one of the most thrilling strategy experiences I've ever played.

Regards,
Ryan

Offline TrashMan

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Re: Latest real-world weaponry
« Reply #29 on: September 05, 2008, 12:05:55 pm »
I wrote a temporary description of the Coilgun on the Wiki, but it was deleted. That's rather uncalled for.