Request: Headshot mode for sniper rifles

[simulatoralive]

Daft. Daft. Daft.

Viruses are small, simple structures who have very limited purpose. Brain cells are huge compared to them and they exchange data directly.
Transmitting any data to other viruses would require quite e energy expenditure, especially at ranges mentioned. Not to mention that virusus wouldn't even have a fraction of the processing power a brain cell has, given their small size and specialized nature.

First off, don't call me daft.  That's rude.

From the bits I've read, XVI isn't a virus.  It's referred to as a small organism that behaves like a virus, but is somewhat more like a bacteria.  Course that's a little off the top of my head, but I remember that it isn't a virus.

Also, we don't know how much energy telepathy takes.  Period.  It's not been seen and studied in real life, so we just don't know.  It could take very little, but is a complex trait to develop.

[Mayhem]

Anti-material rifles are intended for destroying vehicles, not people, but they can do so in a pinch.  They're just far too over-powered and heavy for shooting people to be used for this all the time.  In other words, they'd never be issued for this purpose and thus, the in-game sniper rifle can't possibly be one.

Just FYI, the sniper rifle in the game is quite specifically referred to as an AMR rifle using 20mm HMG rounds.

[Sophisanmus]

I'd like to issue an alternative to simulatoralive's explanation.  XVI could easily be a virus.  A virus is a simple structure, too simple to have cognitive abilities.  But the virus' payload, which re-writes the DNA of the target, could easily create cells which would act as brain cells.  The actual incarnation of the XVI virus, and its various strains, would be inherently unintelligent, but the altered organisms resulting from XVI infection would form the actual distributed nervous system which could be called the XVI "organism". 

I have been arguing under the impression that the rifle was anti-material, and that heavy alien forces would be at least equivalently armored, thanks to their far advanced technology, materials, and manufacturing processes, to most modern front-line combat vehicles.  And AMR rifle would be the most effective human-created weapon for dealing with these targets, but to accomplish that they do not have to be one-hit-kills.  It may do enough damage to OHK most lesser-armored enemies by obliterating a sufficiently vital area, but against the heaviest alien armors, the armor would provide sufficient defensive measures, and possibly after-the-fact recuperative assistance, to make even a proper headshot non-lethal. 

Keep in mind, with an intelligence controlling a vast array of 'host' organisms, I don't think it would be entirely opposed to using advanced life support functions to keep alive an otherwise fatally wounded host body.  When we consider it inhumane or pointless to keep a victim alive via machines when there is no hope of recovery, XVI may have their heavy armor suits designed for such functions.  Humans supposedly have broached the possibilities for nanotechnology-based medical technologies, so perhaps XVI has further advanced that technology integrated into their heavier armor suits.

[sirg]

I think the devs have to come up with some magic concept to keep this in realistic boundries. Even if you imagine super tech heavy armor you can't ignore physics. This arguement has transformed the alien heavy nano armor into a matter of faith - do you believe it can stop a bullet or not. It's the same kind of irrational talk like preachers do.

It would have been simpler if the aliens had a bubble shield around them, like a force fields we saw in Star Trek movies. Then sure, np, it could stop a train. But from what I understand, this kind of tech doesn't fit with Winter's story.


Other thing - regarding the virus/bacteria - such a micro-organism doesn't behave like a creature, with a goal in mind. It multiplies as long there is a host or enough energy for it to do so, but without following any strategy or given goal. Even an artificial creature has some kind of programming to serve a purpose. You can't have some gel behaving like a creature or a brainless creature behaving like one that has a brain. Sure, you can imagine anything, but then people will have that reaction "oh, come on" when they'll see daft things.

There are alot of great concepts and ideas in other games that could be adapted to this one - why spend so much time and energy on some that are flawed from the start?

[TrashMan]

First off, don't call me daft.  That's rude.

I didn't call you daft. I called that virus part of the story daft 

Also, we don't know how much energy telepathy takes.  Period.  It's not been seen and studied in real life, so we just don't know.  It could take very little, but is a complex trait to develop.

Basics of science...action and reaction. To transmit information you need energy. The greater the distance, the more energy.

that said, telephaty is a load of bull***.

[Sophisanmus]

Armor can stop bullets, and have been able to since the dawn of gunpowder.  It has never been an issue of faith, but of technology and logistics.  I do not believe there has ever been a bullet made that could not be stopped by sufficient armor, sufficient being the operative word.  Hell, modern technology has many ways of stopping such weapons, we just cannot deploy a mass-producible, cost-effective, man-portable version of it.  Modern AMRs can be blocked to the point of nullification; of course, the armor required to do so equates to a main battle tank or something in that range.  The aliens, on the other hand, have introduced materials, manufacturing, and technology which may allow for such levels of protection to be issued to heavy infantry. 

In terms of the organism standpoint, I see here the assumption here that the XVI in question is of the same size as a regular body cell.  In fact, it may well be significantly larger, and thus more capable.  It does seem you are too much judging the potential for undiscovered organisms and technologies by what has already been observed.  I take it from your comment that you are not a religious individual; when an intelligent civilization beings playing God, what is to keep them from being too good at it?

I do prefer my own XVI explanation, but that may be more of an operation of pride than anything else.

[TrashMan]

Armor can stop bullets, and have been able to since the dawn of gunpowder.  It has never been an issue of faith, but of technology and logistics.  I do not believe there has ever been a bullet made that could not be stopped by sufficient armor, sufficient being the operative word.  Hell, modern technology has many ways of stopping such weapons, we just cannot deploy a mass-producible, cost-effective, man-portable version of it.  Modern AMRs can be blocked to the point of nullification; of course, the armor required to do so equates to a main battle tank or something in that range.  The aliens, on the other hand, have introduced materials, manufacturing, and technology which may allow for such levels of protection to be issued to heavy infantry.

No, you can't REALLY stop everything. Offense surpassed defense a long time ago. We got SABOT and Depleted Uranium shells that can punch trough heavy armor with ease.
Point is, my professor brought top-line researches in nano-technology who held presentations and answered questions. Nano stuff is crazy and has some weird properties, but there are limits.
You'll never be able to make 1cm think armor that can stop modern high-calibre shells (like the Barret sniper rifle), simply because the atomic structure and connections themselves are the limit (how much energy they can take, etc).

You can make armor that will stop a armor piercing rocket launcher, but that armor won't be man-portable, since it would have to be main-battle tank like in thickness. Not to mention that guns in the future will only become more powerful.
   

In terms of the organism standpoint, I see here the assumption here that the XVI in question is of the same size as a regular body cell.  In fact, it may well be significantly larger, and thus more capable.  It does seem you are too much judging the potential for undiscovered organisms and technologies by what has already been observed.  I take it from your comment that you are not a religious individual; when an intelligent civilization beings playing God, what is to keep them from being too good at it?

I base my conclusions on knowledge of basic biology and the most fundamental laws of physics.
XVI is called a virus. There's a clear definition of what a virus is and it's structure. If it's not a virus, then it shouldn't be labeled as such.

Regardless, the capabilities and behaviour of the XVI are redicolous.
It's like saying you can make a fusion reactor out of a chewing gum, paper clips and duct tape...that level of redicolous.

[simulatoralive]

I also think it's strange that it's called a virus (by name) and then later contradicted.  The writer of the segments on XVI should never have referred to it as a virus, because they made it quite clear that it isn't.  All it does is create confusion that doesn't need to be there.

[Sophisanmus]

I think the "virus" referral was meant more as an example of how it spreads, and not necessarily its function.  I do think it needs re-writing; the concept is good for a game of this genre, but it needs some clarification.  It is still an outline, though, and will probably be fleshed out in a more plausible fashion through the in-game research landmarks.

With regards to the armor, 1cm appears to be about thickness of alien light armor at its edges.  I figure that was more for example, but still consider that alien heavy armor may well be many times that thickness.

Offensive technology surpassed defense technology in cost effectiveness a long time ago.  Medieval body armor was more than a match for most guns of its time while still maintaining mobility, and even for several generations thereafter; the suits, however, were far to expensive to deploy in numbers needed to counter the more mass-producible gunpowder weapons. 

Now, the offense surpasses defense argument holds much weight when the periods of progress are approaching equivalence.  That is not the case in the fiction here.  Alien weaponry clearly surpasses their armor technology, though not by the same significant margin as with human history.  Perhaps that is why PHALANX stands some chance at success; the aggressive human mindset has pushed weapons development disproportionately farther than defenses, while the aliens have pursued a more equalized approach. 

That said, the raw stopping power of the armor is not the end all and be all of defense, there are other considerations which may factor into the heavy suit's ability to survive a single high-power shot to the wearer's most vulnerable area.  Whether by distributing or dispersing the force, deflecting the projectile, activating some reactive mechanism capable of disrupting or destroying the projectile, material strong enough to deny full penetration, serving to bridge/supplement the damaged areas, or some combination of the above, there are numerous ways the heavy combat armor could reduce an AMR "headshot" to severe, but non-lethal (at least not alone), levels. 

[Shak]

Point is, my professor brought top-line researches in nano-technology who held presentations and answered questions. Nano stuff is crazy and has some weird properties, but there are limits.
You'll never be able to make 1cm think armor that can stop modern high-calibre shells (like the Barret sniper rifle), simply because the atomic structure and connections themselves are the limit (how much energy they can take, etc).


I base my conclusions on knowledge of basic biology and the most fundamental laws of physics.
XVI is called a virus. There's a clear definition of what a virus is and it's structure. If it's not a virus, then it shouldn't be labeled as such.

Basics of science...action and reaction. To transmit information you need energy. The greater the distance, the more energy.

The basis of scentific fact is a human explanation of a cause and effect. It has throughout time been proved that what we believe to be irrefutable evidence is simply one layer of understanding.
People were jailed and executed for saying the world was not flat 500 years ago. Less than 50 years ago computers were the size of a room, now they can fit inside an envelope...I understand that modern science is compelling and has mountains of evidence but there are GALAXIES like sand on a beach.
My point?
Scientific knowledge is only what we've figured out so far - there's plenty more to come, even faster if we had some alien tech to reverse-engineer

You just can't keep pulling the "You can't prove it, so it cant be done"
for developing a game, Imagination > Scientific Proof.

[TrashMan]

The basis of scentific fact is a human explanation of a cause and effect. It has throughout time been proved that what we believe to be irrefutable evidence is simply one layer of understanding.
People were jailed and executed for saying the world was not flat 500 years ago.

500 years ago there was no real scientific method. No real scientific community. Thus, that argument doesn't stand.

Less than 50 years ago computers were the size of a room, now they can fit inside an envelope...I understand that modern science is compelling and has mountains of evidence but there are GALAXIES like sand on a beach.
My point?
Scientific knowledge is only what we've figured out so far - there's plenty more to come, even faster if we had some alien tech to reverse-engineer

what we know so far isn't ALL the knowledge, sure. But that doesn't mean what we know so far is incorrect. there are some theories that are yet to be proven, some that are on shaky legs - but there are a few that are the foundation of science and the universe and they are proven to work each second of every day. the universe couldn't exist as it is if they were not true.

So we might discover some new stuff in the future, but the basic laws of the universe will not change. The atomic forces won't change.

You just can't keep pulling the "You can't prove it, so it cant be done"
for developing a game, Imagination > Scientific Proof.

I'm not really.
I'm just against double-standards when determining such things.

[Sophisanmus]

...the universe couldn't exist as it is if they were not true.

So we might discover some new stuff in the future, but the basic laws of the universe will not change. The atomic forces won't change...

That assumes our current "laws" of science are correct.  What we even consider "laws" are just best-fit guesses that haven't been disproved.  We still don't know what's really going on under the hood.  500 years in the future, schoolkids may well think we were chumps for believing it, and locking up the raving lunatics of our time who may have actually been on to something.

Something to live by: the more you know, the more you know you don't know.

Science fiction has often been more speculative than science "fact", and I don't see why that tradition has to stop here.  With an alien enemy that has so much time to advance, they will have better military technology, both offensive and defensive.  Now, your argument goes a ways to justify how standard human ballistics are still effective against light-armor aliens, but their obsolescence against heavier armors, including the AMR's inability to one-hit heavy troopers and large terror agents, is generally mandated by the tone and gameplay, and is well-supported by the plotline's generation gap.

Game mechanics aside, science doesn't say this is impossible.  All it tells us is that we haven't figured out how, yet.

[DanielOR]

Sophisanmus,

TrashMan is absolutely right: the main achievement of the recent few centuries is the *method* of peer-review, as much as the results themselves. 

As for physical law being relative...or an "approximation".  Let me give you an example.  Gravitational constant, "g", 9.81 m/s/s, is a damn good approximation.  Sure, it comes from a more complicated equation that involves earth's radius, and, techincally, if you jump two feet in the air the value of "g" is corrected.  That is, correction on the order of 0.6 m to a constant that is 6,360,000 m.  Not to mention 1/ R^2, so another 7 orders of magnitude, but who cares, right?  So, the correction is so tiny, that even the difference between see level and airplane altitude is pretty hard to observe.  Yes, it is an approximation.  Will it ever make any difference in your life?  Nope.

And then there is something like conservation of momentum or energy.  You know the T-shirt: "speed limit 300,000 km/sec - it's not just a good advice, it's the LAW" ?  Those laws are fixed.  Nothing "approximate" or "relative" about them.  These laws are observed everywhere in this universe, completely and fully.

As to applying the laws to sci-fi...  In my personal preference, the concepts should not offend common sense, i.e. not violate the basic physical law in a fundamental way.  For example, no armor, alien or human, can violate conservation of momentum.  I.e. a small, light alien, hit with a sledgehammer, should fly.  He may be OK when he lands, being alien and all that, but fly he must. 

Just my $0.02

[Sophisanmus]

I'm not refuting the existence of peer review; that's been around longer than mob violence.  The method(s) of forming theories for said peers to review, however, could well change in the future.

And those examples are constants, not laws.  Gravity, of course, varies depending on the rock or rock analogue you happen to be standing upon, if you're standing at all.  And for all we know, there may be places where the formula for determining that constant is different.  Speed of light... well, that's already out of the question what with the assumed FTL of the game.  Well, okay, so they aren't actually surpassing that limit, just taking shortcuts to get where they're going faster.   I think that actually illustrates my point; established science is based on a number of assumptions of which some are bound to be disproved, revised, or replaced, in the foreseeable future.  Historically, what we once saw as limits have become milestones of our later progress.

I wholeheartedly agree with the sledgehammers and flying aliens, in whatever not-quite-as-awesome-as-the-example form it should take.

[Shak]

500 years ago there was no real scientific method. No real scientific community. Thus, that argument doesn't stand.

So the collection of historic world shaping thinkers from when the world was proven to be round isnt a scientific community? Copernicus and Galileo just messing around then?

So we might discover some new stuff in the future, but the basic laws of the universe will not change. The atomic forces won't change.

Those basic laws were written by man, and so are fallible. If you research black holes or white holes, you'll see the leading edge of academia in hot dispute about certain "hypothetical laws". Sooner or later they will agree on the best possible fit for evidence and theory. Thats what science is, an attempt to understand - not the absolute perfect truth you describe.

For all we know, the aliens may have a personal shield that relieson the kinetic energy from the projectile that hits it.