Are aliens resistant to tachyon?

[Bandobras]

Important question: will aliens and alien armor generally be as susceptible to tachyon as human armor is?

If so, tachyon weapons are much better than the damage listings indicate, which would confuse newbies. If not, I wonder how they manage to shield themselves against tachyon. Or perhaps they rather pass the particles through in some way? Anyway, this technology (or biological accomodation) is out of reach for humans and so tachyon weapons are really deadly in hands of aliens and only moderately better than plasma weapons in hands of humans, unless they fight other humans (quite possible, depending on storyline). Yeah, I like this variant more. Thoughts?

[BTAxis]

I don't really understand the question. Why would the tachyon weapons be better than they would appear?

But unrelated to that, I'd say the aliens have some form of defense against their own weaponry. It makes sense.

[Bandobras]

I don't really understand the question. Why would the tachyon weapons be better than they would appear?

E.g., damage listing in the GUI says 100 for a plasma rifle and 100 for a tachyon pistol. Newbie says: they are equivalent, but I like the plasma rifle particle effects better; I take it. But if alien amor/skin is the same as human heavy armor, plasma rifle will do 30 damage to aliens and tachyon pistol will do 97 damage to aliens. Newbie is confused...

But unrelated to that, I'd say the aliens have some form of defense against their own weaponry. It makes sense.

Good. Now the tricky part --- why can't we duplicate the technology? Is it water in our bodies that catches tachyons? Is it a rare element in their armor (cliche)? Is it just too difficult for our engineers, just as they were unable to duplicate tachyon blast of the tachyon rifle and designed tachyon beam rocket instead?

[BTAxis]

Well, maybe we can duplicate the technology, only we can't miniaturize it as well (because it's not cost-effective, maybe?). So the strongest human anti-tachyon armor would not be as effective as the best alien one.

[Bandobras]

So, our science is good enough, but technology is not? Plausible, since techology often takes many years to come from bulky prototypes to cost-effective light and shiny versions...

P.S. So I assume average alien is 30% resitant to tachyon, 50% to plasma and somewhat in between to blast and normal (and perhaps around 20% for laser). And the ideas in this thread will find their way into human armor descriptions...

[Bandobras]

One more idea: tachyon particles are polarized (spin?) or tachyon radiation is modulated (amplitude and frequencies?) by aliens so that it reacts with human body, not with the armor. Humans can understand that, duplicate the weapon, but they cannot measure what modulations are best for alien bodies nor design the different modulators needed.

So the weapon in human hands makes the beam pass through alien armour but only partially react with alien bodies. Only 30% resistance for aliens, since their bodies are also water based. But humans only get 1% resistance... This version would imply that even aliens without armor get that 30%, as opposed  to only several % against plasma without armor.

[BTAxis]

That would mean you still get screwed over by tachyon even after you research better armor, though. I think you should at least be able to defend yourself a little better against it as the game progresses. It's not much fun otherwise.

[Bandobras]

Perhaps. I was just copying what was, for  me, the intention of the original amor stats creators...

No resistance against tachyon for humans, but tachyon does not so much damage as plasma fortunately (but is more accurate, long range, etc.). ANd tachyon does not damage armor. And only humans have one of the two big damage tachyon guns --- tachyon-beam rockets.

This works also the other way, aliens, regardless of their armor, have never more than 30% againt tachyon. In the late game they may be 80% against plasma, 50-60% against normal and laser, but still weak agains tachyon. OTOH, tachyon needn't be used against early-game aliens, as they are resistant almost exclusively to it. This makes sense --- no bonus for researching tachyon as the first tech --- just go slowly tier by tier...

[BTAxis]

Well, I think having no way of protecting yourself against tachyon at all will result in a severe unbalance, considering Tachyon will be the predominant type of weaponry used by the aliens in the later game. Besides, it's cleaner to have weapon resistances be based on armor, and armor alone. No strange explanations about water in bodies and stuff. Keep it nice and simple - a player looks at his armor to see what resistance against a weapon he has, nothing else.

Also, you make it sound like the aliens use tachyon right from the start of the game. That shouldn't be the case. The aliens should gradually start using better equipment, so the new technology to be researched by the player is introduced gradually, not all in one go. It's just one of those fundamental characteristics of a UFO game. You could do it differently, but then you'd be doing it wrong, basically.

[Bandobras]

Well, I think having no way of protecting yourself against tachyon at all will result in a severe unbalance, considering Tachyon will be the predominant type of weaponry used by the aliens in the later game.

You are right. So, I guess, I should lower damage of tachyon weapons a lot (to the level of laser weapons, perhaps). So that tachyon and plasma weapons do similar damage to heavy armor humans (70% resistance against plasma, nothing agains tachyon). Of course, tachyon will be more accurate and longer range than plasma...

Besides, it's cleaner to have weapon resistances be based on armor, and armor alone. No strange explanations about water in bodies and stuff.

Sounds good, but do you propose that all aliens that do not wear armor have no resistance to anything (perhaps with one or two alien species resistant to one or two things, as an exception)?

Keep it nice and simple - a player looks at his armor to see what resistance against a weapon he has, nothing else.

KISS (Keep it simple, stupid) principle is very valuable, indeed. But for humans it works. Only for aliens I propose this fixed rule 30% agains tachyon regardless of armor or lack of it. The resistances and damage are measured relative to humans. Naked human has 0% agains anything. There is no reason why naked alien should do the same...

Also, you make it sound like the aliens use tachyon right from the start of the game.

No, no. Sure it should be gradual. But if a nice mission with a treasure cache of advanced alien weapons (not used by the aliens defending it) happens early... Then we would have to worry about balance --- whether researching tachyon early breaks balance or not. With the fixed resistace to tachyon it doesn't have to break balance, as I argued above...

[BTAxis]

Sounds good, but do you propose that all aliens that do not wear armor have no resistance to anything (perhaps with one or two alien species resistant to one or two things, as an exception)?

Well, the way I see it, all units always wear armor. It's just that human soldiers simply wear the Phalanx suit as armor, which grants maybe 1% protection to anything, if that. The same goes for aliens. They have armor values, and it's implied they always wear armor, even if that armor is just their thick hide.
That's a technicality, and it doesn't answer your question. But it allows me to say that the "standard" alien armor could have a moderate (20-30%) resistance to some weapon types - but it should definitely not be much.

No, no. Sure it should be gradual. But if a nice mission with a treasure cache of advanced alien weapons (not used by the aliens defending it) happens early... Then we would have to worry about balance --- whether researching tachyon early breaks balance or not. With the fixed resistace to tachyon it doesn't have to break balance, as I argued above...

I can see that happening, but I'd prefer there to be some measure in the tech tree, like all but the simplest tachyon weaponry not being able to be researched until you finish the most advanced plasma ones. Or perhaps tachyon research should require so much research capacity that it's not worth researching until late in the game, when you have more bases.

Those are my feelings on the single-player side of the game (which is, in my opinion, the most important side). On the other hand, I do see the charm of tachyon weaponry being less effective on aliens overall in the context of multiplayer. It would make a real difference who your opponents are that way. Do I take weapons that are most effective against humans? Or do I gear up to tackle aliens?

[Bandobras]

I would love if the orignal author of the Nano Armour stats explained what he had in mind putting Tachyon resistance at 1%...

Anyway, perhaps we can compromise. Let the Nano Armour be that way (so first encounters with Tachyon weapons will be horrors). But improve Heavy Nano Armour and the two not implemented types. What resistance to Tachyon would you imagine for the Heavy Nano Armour? Plasma is 70% but it has higher damage generally and eats earmor quicly. Tahyon does almost no damage to armor. What resistance?

[BTAxis]

I'd say the heavy armor not too terribly much (25% or something), and then the other types a bit more, say 35% for the psi armor and 45% for the power one. Both armors would obviously have lower defense values for the other damage types.

[Bandobras]

Oops. Error. Not enough data.

I'd say the heavy armor not too terribly much (25% or something),

25% of damage is deflected? Hmm. OK. That is drastic change from 1%, but still much less than 70% for plasma. Perhaps the same for each alien (their most basic armor types have this and in minutarized version, since they killed themselves with tachyon for ages). And not much more for aliens, too, so that tachyon plays different than plasma on both sides...

and then the other types a bit more, say 35% for the psi armor

psi armor better than heavy? It is comparable with nano armor (medium).

 and 45% for the power one.

No such one. Hover armor? But it is basically a weaker variant of the heavy armor with limited flight capabilities.

 Both armors would obviously have lower defense values for the other damage types.

OK. here we agree. Perhaps around 15% for psi and 28% for hover? Or 24% for hover, but others smaller.

All this will also affect the techtree. Now heavy armor depends on plasma tech, but I think we should add teachyon tech and explain the understanding of tachyon allows to incorporate additional layer screening agains tachyon. Also the  other two advanced armors will get that layer, but not so thick, or somethings. Then I would move the dependency on plasma to medium armor that offers sizable protection agains plasma and is already dependenton laser tech for manufacturing reasons (and to make researching amor slower, but more rewarding than researching particular weapons). There are dozens of weapons in the game but only three (later five) armor types, so their research has to be less trivial...

[BTAxis]

Okay, sounds good to me. Next, what about the UGVs and their resistance to the various damage types? To make things interesting, maybe those could have a substantially larger resistance to tachyone, and be more vulnerable to plasma?