The SMG... godsend or overpowered?

[jbabcock]

I'd like a chance to fire a real pistol...  The largest weapon I've fired is an Air Rifle, closely followed by a BB pistol...  

However, for the two-hands argument, if anyone's got access to those shooting gallery arcade games like Point Blank etc, try playing with both of the guns and you'll soon see how hard it is to be accurate.  The rate of fire boost isn't that tremendous either.

As for reloading, wouldn't you have to mess around to eject the magazine, find a new one, insert it, cock the pistol, etc?  Having both hands full might make this a tad more difficult and time consuming.

Yeah, I have shot several pistols and am a passable shot. I was once handed two 45 cal. pistols with three rounds apiece and told to unload them as fast as I could and still hit a nearby target. I think I put half of them clear over the horizon (which is a huge no-no). Now admittedly these were bigger than I was used to firing, but there's no question that it is much harder than just firing one handed or with the standard two handed stance (meaning two hands on one gun).

[Pariah]

As well, combat on average in real life tends to take place at distances signifigantly greater than those more typical to gameplay in UFO:AI.

Actually, from what I have heard and read, over in that country that is spelled with 4 letters, the US military is finding that the average gun battle takes place in less then 100 meters. The reason? The gun battles are happening on street corners and not out in the desert. Additionally, there is no static lines warfare ivolved, instead they are rallying around points, like a school building.

So what we are seeing in the game regarding ranges of combat is "realistic" enough.

[Surrealistik]

Actually, from what I have heard and read, over in that country that is spelled with 4 letters, the US military is finding that the average gun battle takes place in less then 100 meters. The reason? The gun battles are happening on street corners and not out in the desert. Additionally, there is no static lines warfare ivolved, instead they are rallying around points, like a school building.

So what we are seeing in the game regarding ranges of combat is "realistic" enough.

Are you claiming that point blank encounters are common in real combat? While much urban combat in 'real life' does take place at close range, I doubt you'll find any facts or figures confirming that a signifigant portion of encounters occurs at ultra short distances (which I shall define as 10 meters or less). In UFO:AI I'd estimate conservatively that about half, if not a majority of all conflict transpires at it (given that 1 tile = 1 meter).

[Wanderer]

While much urban combat in 'real life' does take place at close range, I doubt you'll find any facts or figures confirming that a signifigant portion of encounters occurs at ultra short distances (which I shall define as 10 meters or less). In UFO:AI I'd estimate conservatively that about half, if not a majority of all conflict transpires at it (given that 1 tile = 1 meter).

Police forces and DEA raids are the most likely sources for determing 'point blank range' statistics, during warrant searches and house raids.

[Pariah]

Actually, from what I have heard and read, over in that country that is spelled with 4 letters, the US military is finding that the average gun battle takes place in less then 100 meters. The reason? The gun battles are happening on street corners and not out in the desert. Additionally, there is no static lines warfare ivolved, instead they are rallying around points, like a school building.

So what we are seeing in the game regarding ranges of combat is "realistic" enough.

Are you claiming that point blank encounters are common in real combat? While much urban combat in 'real life' does take place at close range, I doubt you'll find any facts or figures confirming that a signifigant portion of encounters occurs at ultra short distances (which I shall define as 10 meters or less). In UFO:AI I'd estimate conservatively that about half, if not a majority of all conflict transpires at it (given that 1 tile = 1 meter).

No, I said less the 100 meters. But yes, it also happens at less then 10 meters. I have a nephew who had to shoot a kid not much younger then him (he is 24) because the kid came around a corner in a back alley and wouldn't drop his AK47.

[breversa]

Anyway, 10m is already wayyyyyy to far for dual pistols...

[Surrealistik]

No, I said less the 100 meters. But yes, it also happens at less then 10 meters. I have a nephew who had to shoot a kid not much younger then him (he is 24) because the kid came around a corner in a back alley and wouldn't drop his AK47.

See, that's the thing; my argument is concerned with point blank/extreme close range encounters. In order to debunk my related point (and support yours), namely one of the reasons dual wielding is rarely encountered in reality being that most encounters take place at greater distances, you'd have to provide figures which specify that a signifigant portion of 'real life' encounters take place at 10 meters or less. It does happen. I'm not arguing that, but I would definitely contest whether these encounters occur at anywhere near the same frequency as they do in UFO:AI. To state that a majority of them take place within 100 meters, and not mean that to signify point blank/ultra close range encounters is to contribute an irrelevant factoid.

Police forces and DEA raids are the most likely sources for determing 'point blank range' statistics, during warrant searches and house raids.

Sure, and I'm aware that these forces do not dual wield. However, the typical lack of frequency of extreme proximity situations is only one reason dual wielding is not employed. The availibility of superior alternatives is another. However, these same police forces do not have access to laser, plasma and particle beam pistols. I would argue that given present statistics, the firepower that the dual wielding of these weapons would afford signifigantly exceeds that of their larger counterparts in most cases, and thus compensates for the gratuitous inaccuracy, making the practice viable.

Anyway, 10m is already wayyyyyy to far for dual pistols...

That's the upper end of what is defined as "extreme close range", the lower being melee proximity.

[breversa]

So, huh... you're basically saying that real-life military/LE forces don't dual wield pistols because :

1- ranges are often to big, and

2- dual pistols would be too much firepower

While your arguments may not be outrighlly wrong, they're not the reason why dual pistols are not used IRL :

1- extreme close range encounters DO occur for LE units (esp in buildings... and they are not few in UFO:AI !). I wish I could find you that report revealing that many gunfights involving police take place at about 3 METERS, and even then, many shots miss their target because of lack of aiming. What's more, every miss is a risk of stray bullet hitting an unintended target (read "civilian passer-by").

Thus, even the extreme close range (and its supposedly lower need for aiming) cannot make up for the ultra-poor accuracy of dual wielding.
(And BTW, 10 meters is more than the upper end of extreme close range : it's short-medium range for a pistol firefight).


2- If dual pistols are overkill for LE units, what would they NOT be overkill for ? Military ? They have access to better weaponry, namely machine pistols, SMG, and if encumbrance matters, PDW (tor instance, the H&K MP7 is only a tad larger than a full-size pistol). All of them are more accurate, faster-firing and often more powerful than dual pistols. They are also orders of magnitude easier to operate, while pistols are usually not fully ambidextrous (and many aren't)... and DEFINITELY NOT designed to be reloaded or unjammed single-handedly !


So to sum up, there is NOTHING dual pistol do better than a specialized weapon can. (the same goes for the Desert Eagle, but that's an other story...).
They *might* have a tiny bit of interest if you were some poor citizen caught in a civilian war with no resources to get better weapons, but for a world-funded specialized military unit, they are not  even worth thinking of it.

[Surrealistik]

1- ranges are often to big, and

Yes. In most cases military engagements are fought at longer ranges than 10 meters (police are exceptional and I've noted this).

2- dual pistols would be too much firepower

Definitely not. I have conceded that armed forces have access to better alternatives (I should hope) than dual high powered pistols. When it comes to UFO:AI however, your soldiers gain access to powerful pistol firearms modelled after advanced technology that isn't presently availible. These pistols feature incredible stopping power coupled with appreciable range and, with the exception of the laser pistol (its larger counterparts don't possess it either) auto-fire. Based on the current statistics used, dual wielding with these weapons would most certainly be worthwhile in extreme close quarters, even with a prohibitive accuracy penalty applied (assuming it would enable the player to execute 2 attacks for the TU cost of one).

[Alex]

Face it, pro-2-pistols people want dual pistols because it looks cool, end of story.

[tempsanity]

Face it, pro-2-pistols people want dual pistols because it looks cool, end of story.

So true.
The balance between realism and 'coolness' factor is very important.

[breversa]

Face it, pro-2-pistols people want dual pistols because it looks cool, end of story.

It only LOOKS cool to people who don't know the reality of it. But as UFO:AI is a rather technically-contexted game, such "fantasy" should not be implemented.
If you want dual pistols, go play Tomb Raider.

[Pariah]

But as UFO:AI is a rather technically-contexted game,

Uh, hello, little green men, lasers, plasma and particle weapons, UFO:AI IS a fantasy game.

I do agree, thanks to holliwierd, the coolness of dual pistols, no matter how illogical, is a given. First and foremost, this is a game. To, you know, have fun with.

[Surrealistik]

I want it because it gives me a compelling reason to use pistols, and increases their viability. Maximizing the number of interesting options is always a good thing when it comes to game design.

That aside, while UFO:AI may be a hard sci-fi game, my points are no less true: combat occurs at extremely close ranges and advanced pistols when dual wielded tend to bring more firepower to bear than a single rifle or heavy variant of the same technology, which makes doing so reasonable under certain circumstances.

[Pariah]

Ahh, I think I see the disconnect. If I may:

advanced pistols when dual wielded tend to bring more firepower to bear than a single rifle or heavy variant of the same technology

Surreal, I think you are looking at this strictly in a numbers in the game way, while Brev is looking at it from a real world point of view.

I think a legit question, that would also bring us a full circle back to the one that started this thread would be:

How would a Dual Wield Pistol stack against the SMG?
How would a Dual Wield Laser pistol stack against the SMG?
How would Dual Plasma and Dual Particle stack?

From what has been said, it looks like the SMG would (and possible should) beat all four. Yes? No?