UFO:Alien Invasion
General => Discussion => Topic started by: Wanderer on April 30, 2007, 08:02:20 pm
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I've been goofing around with just using Secondary weapons in hard mode.
Now, the pistols kinda stink, but that's okay, they should. However, has anyone else noticed that an SMG on full auto can rock an alien that you could Inferno with the flamethrower and he laughs at you?
The aim's not bad... certainly no worse then the sniper at short range... and my snipers at 90% crouched can't hit something a screen or two over usually anyway. It's light, the ammo packs easily, and you can run around with a few grenades for those 'round the corner' shots. RF on it seems pretty regular, as well, and it's a burst fire.
So, my team:
- My guy with the riot shotgun can pepper a target with sabot rounds and hopefully knock down something at range in 2 salvos.
- My assault rifle fires all over the place and can usually take something out, but has decent range but not much better then the SMG.
- The grenade launcher occassionally does stupid levels of damage, especially around corners or if the enemy's grouped. I'm just as likely to bounce the grenades off the map or smack them off an invisible beam and blow my own team up occassionally.
- The flamethrower requires me to leave a guy's butt hanging out in the wind due to range unless he cremates everything around. They're great for hitting multiple aliens all lined up in a row... which happens... never?
- My snipers are burning off TU's for halfhearted shots at long range because they can't do crap in close. Once the alien's turn starts, they're burgermeat. Only highly useful, at best, on 1/4 maps. Especially when the Alien's Particle Rifle has better aim then my trained soldier with a scope.
- The SMG chews up aliens like they were jokes at short-medium range, and fires so many rounds you could hand it to a blind baby in a stroller and hit something.
I haven't gotten them into the Medium armor aliens yet, but so far, they seem like the primier weapon of choice for enemy obliteration, especially in early game.
Thoughts?
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Personally, I prefer both the grenade launchers and sniper rifles...
You just gotta make sure you give the sniper rifles to people who have both decent accuracy, and decent sniper skill. I tend to pair them up and turn them into reaction fire deathsquads.
Grenade launchers are a veritable swiss army firearm. The first thing I do in a new game is build some flechette rounds for them. That way I can either use them for splash damage mayhem, or turn them into smg-like weapons. A tripple shot flechette is basically a guaranteed kill at short-mid range, for 14 TUs(less than smg full auto.) And the single shot is more potent than the smg burst mode for 8 TU instead of 9.
Occasionally I also use the rocket launchers in the beginning(not enough snipers/grenade launchers.) They're quite effective.
My first 3 researches go into making heavy laser and ammo for it though, since it's the best weapon in the game, no questions asked.
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While I don't think I have used the SMG, except for maybe once, I have used the 7.62mm Pistol, the Machine Pistol and the Micro Shotgun. The 7.62mm will get you killed using it, so the first thing I do is sell all of those. The Micro Shotgun actually works early on, but once they show up in armor, move on. The Machine Pistol is the one that surprised me, because if the first burst didn't drop them, then the second normally would, and if it took a third burst, I normally had enough AP's for a 3rd. Where all of these weapons fail is in reactionary fire.
Kaerius is right though, the Heavy Laser is a priority to research, because I find that weapon over powering. It is one weapon that mid to late game that will kill an alien with reactionary fire, more often then not.
I am thinknig that maybe the research tree needs to be tweaked so that, like in Xcom, you have to research the laser pistol and the laser rifle before you can get the heavy laser.
Here is a question I will ask because I don't remember reading it elsewhere. Regarding dual pistols, the UFOPaedia states that the laser pistols would be ideal for someone to wield two of them. Has that been implimented into the game? Will it?
Thanks all,
Albert - Pariah - eastwoodaen
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Here is a question I will ask because I don't remember reading it elsewhere. Regarding dual pistols, the UFOPaedia states that the laser pistols would be ideal for someone to wield two of them. Has that been implimented into the game? Will it?
Well, if you wanna keep UFO:AI a bit realistic (sci-fi does NOT mean physics don't apply any longer !), I hope this feature never makes it in this game (or any other realistic on), for one reason : the way AIMING works for a human being.
As I was taught in the army, and as I teach new recruits, aiming is lining THREE items : your (director) eye, your weapon sighting system and your target...
So if you're wielding TWO weapons, how could you possibly aim them at the same time ? Unless you have TWO director and independant eyes (like a chameleon), it's just impossible for a human...
And don't tell me about unaimed shooting : if you don't plan to aim, don't plan to shoot, unless you plan on missing. ;)
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Well, if you wanna keep UFO:AI a bit realistic (sci-fi does NOT mean physics don't apply any longer !), I hope this feature never makes it in this game (or any other realistic on), for one reason : the way AIMING works for a human being.
As I was taught in the army, and as I teach new recruits, aiming is lining THREE items : your (director) eye, your weapon sighting system and your target...
So if you're wielding TWO weapons, how could you possibly aim them at the same time ? Unless you have TWO director and independant eyes (like a chameleon), it's just impossible for a human...
And don't tell me about unaimed shooting : if you don't plan to aim, don't plan to shoot, unless you plan on missing. ;)
I'm with you on that, but most FPS-monkeys and such people will whine and demand if there is no dual-wielding feature. To me, an ideal solution would be to include it, but treat it with complete realism -- to make dual-wielded pistols suck as much as they do in real life. :P
Regards,
Winter
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He he, yeah, why not... But you could also save the hassle of implementing such sucking feature into the game ! ;)
What's more, those FPS-monkeys will then whine because such feature exists but sucks so much... so why have it ? :)
Oh, and by the way... The SMG model needs at the very least a folding stock and sighting system, either iron sights (most probably obsolete in 2084 though... Red dot or holographic sights would probably be standard by then) or optic.
The same actually goes for some other weapons, but I think I'll start a thread on that matter for 3D artists who want to make their weapons look more realistic. :)
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And don't tell me about unaimed shooting : if you don't plan to aim, don't plan to shoot, unless you plan on missing.
He he, yeah, why not... But you could also save the hassle of implementing such sucking feature into the game !
What's more, those FPS-monkeys will then whine because such feature exists but sucks so much... so why have it ?
At very close range/point blank encounters, dual wielding is realistic, applicable and plausible. Inaccuracy isn't of much concern given that the considerable spread and deviance which would accompany this kind of maneuver is minimally impactful at such distances. That said, combat occurs in SP/MP at these ranges frequently enough that the feature would be useful given the increase in Damage/TU ratios it would afford. Thus it would not "suck" so much as be situational. Smart players would utilize it accordingly.
As for the heavy laser, it is a pitiful weapon, and far from the best in the game (in fact I consider it to be easily amongst the lower tier ones). Its only notable strength lies in its ability to project accurate fire power at long/extreme ranges. However, in addition to the weapon being overly situational, the circumstances in which it is applicable are rare. This all aside it is easily outperformed by particle beam weaponry, save at the very longest distances.
My patch which may be found here (http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1710454&group_id=157793&atid=805244) addresses the short comings of the Laser series, as well as introduces critical rebalancing and revisions to various other weapons and gear, including those that better correlate them with their design suggestions and UFOpedia description. Please note that the changelog is currently somewhat outdated at the moment in that it does not reflect changes made to bolster the shotgun family. These modifications were necessary as this weapon subset was previously ineffective due to exceptionally low Damage/TU ratios compounded with blast type damage (which is the type most armour features the highest resistance to).
Finally, to address the topic, the SoD, or SMG of Doom as I like to call it, has signifigantly declined in power since my inital praise of the weapon on the project's IRC channel. Though still very useful, its substantially reduced Damage/TU ratio has made it more on par with alternative conventional weaponry. It is no longer the degenerate superweapon it used to be.
EDIT: Patch URL updated. Minor clarifications made.
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At very close range/point blank encounters, dual wielding is realistic, applicable and plausible. Inaccuracy isn't of much concern given that the considerable spread and deviance which would accompany this kind of maneuver is minimally impactful at such distances. That said, combat occurs in SP/MP at these ranges frequently enough that the feature would be useful given the increase in Damage/TU ratios it would afford. Thus it would not "suck" so much as be situational. Smart players would utilize it accordingly.
Granted, but at such short range that it's only one or two squares away from hand-to-hand. But well, that's what point blank means, isn't it ? :)
Still, I'm yet to be informed of any "real life" armed force using this method... :P
What's more, although dual pistols wielding might not suck that much, wouldn't a flamethrower be more effective ? And come to think of it, reloading time of dual pistols should be more than twice the TU cost of reloading one pistol, as no hand is free. That feature would increase the "suck factor" on the long run (= more than one magazine worth of ammo).
But over with this and back to the SoG. :)
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Granted, but at such short range that it's only one or two squares away from hand-to-hand. But well, that's what point blank means, isn't it ?
Still, I'm yet to be informed of any "real life" armed force using this method...
Probably because no armed force issues dual pistols, justifyably so given the circumstances typical to most conflicts (see next sentence), the availibility of assault weapons, and the fact that your typical grunt isn't as resilient as an alien armoured with nanotube technology making the extra firepower unneeded. As well, combat on average in real life tends to take place at distances signifigantly greater than those more typical to gameplay in UFO:AI.
What's more, although dual pistols wielding might not suck that much, wouldn't a flamethrower be more effective ? And come to think of it, reloading time of dual pistols should be more than twice the TU cost of reloading one pistol, as no hand is free. That feature would increase the "suck factor" on the long run (= more than one magazine worth of ammo).
A doubled (or more) reload TU cost is fine, and as for flamethrowers, while they're definitely more effective at close range, pistols are less encumbering, and easier to wield with grenades, in addition, they possess greater versality when it comes to range (you do not have to dual wield all the time, it's worthwhile only at close/point blank ranges).
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At very close range/point blank encounters, dual wielding is realistic, applicable and plausible. Inaccuracy isn't of much concern given that the considerable spread and deviance which would accompany this kind of maneuver is minimally impactful at such distances. That said, combat occurs in SP/MP at these ranges frequently enough that the feature would be useful given the increase in Damage/TU ratios it would afford. Thus it would not "suck" so much as be situational. Smart players would utilize it accordingly.
It's never 'realistic'. At best it's plausible because of some jackass who thinks it looks cool. If you're going to use both hands anyway, then a two-handed weapon -- particularly a rifle -- is always more powerful than two handguns. Always, no variation, no argument possible.
If I had to engage in a gunfight in real life, I'd be much happier with an SMG or Micro Shotgun than two handguns. At least then I'd have a realistic chance of fighting back.
Regards,
Winter
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It's never 'realistic'. At best it's plausible because of some jackass who thinks it looks cool. If you're going to use both hands anyway, then a two-handed weapon -- particularly a rifle -- is always more powerful than two handguns. Always, no variation, no argument possible.
It is 'realistic' to use dual handguns at close/point blank range if you need additional firepower and you don't have access to said rifles/smgs/other assault weapon as is the case for most (sadly not all) civilians in North America (however a single handgun is usually more than sufficient in most cases). Shotguns are admittedly viable alternatives thanks to their accessibility, but can be difficult to conceal, and often do not enjoy the same magazine size, range (in the event you do need to peg someone at a distance; obviously you do not dual wield your pistols in this case), fire rate and penetration (flechette rounds aside; you're probably not getting those) of powerful handguns. Again, it is situational.
If I had to engage in a gunfight in real life, I'd be much happier with an SMG or Micro Shotgun than two handguns. At least then I'd have a realistic chance of fighting back.
Well sure, assuming you're free to pick whatever weapon you want. However in reality, the best firearm you could probably get is some form of non-assault weaponry (especially true given that you live in the UK). That said, you would certainly stand an appreciable chance with two high powered pistols when in close proximity to your target (and at further distances, you can still do quite a bit of harm by accurately discharging one of them).
This all aside, in game there is a use for dual wielding, despite the ability to choose from a vast array of more powerful weapons, due to encumberance concerns, and convenience associated with pistol use (one hand is free to hold grenades/medikits, etc... until in a situation where dual wielding is advantageous). Pistols also often remain sufficiently lethal and/or long ranged given laser, plasma and particle beam incarnations. In fact, dual wielding these weapons offers greater firepower than most of their larger counterparts since they enjoy, or lack many of the same capabilities (especially autofire), making up for weaker individual shots and inaccuracy through sheer volume of fire.
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It's never 'realistic'. At best it's plausible because of some jackass who thinks it looks cool. If you're going to use both hands anyway, then a two-handed weapon -- particularly a rifle -- is always more powerful than two handguns. Always, no variation, no argument possible.
I strongly support this point.
BTW, for those of you who have never fired a real pistol, if you ever get a chance, don't miss it ! You'll realize soon enough that you have so many things to master (stance, aiming, breath control, trigger pressure/jerking, limp wrist, recoil, muzzle blast, misfires, jams, reloading, etc.) to simply hit consistently one target that you just will NOT want to try with dual guns...
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It's never 'realistic'. At best it's plausible because of some jackass who thinks it looks cool. If you're going to use both hands anyway, then a two-handed weapon -- particularly a rifle -- is always more powerful than two handguns. Always, no variation, no argument possible.
I strongly support this point.
BTW, for those of you who have never fired a real pistol, if you ever get a chance, don't miss it ! You'll realize soon enough that you have so many things to master (stance, aiming, breath control, trigger pressure/jerking, limp wrist, recoil, muzzle blast, misfires, jams, reloading, etc.) to simply hit consistently one target that you just will NOT want to try with dual guns...
Of course I do. I wanna look cool just like my movie heros...
(Oh shit, Wanderer is here again, CLEAR THE RANGE! EVERYONE OUT!)
(What'd I do? Bah, screw 'em. *BLAMBLAMBLAM*)
(Maintenance comes in later to fix the windows, the broken overhead lighting, and a couple of damaged lockers)
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I'd like a chance to fire a real pistol... The largest weapon I've fired is an Air Rifle, closely followed by a BB pistol... :P
However, for the two-hands argument, if anyone's got access to those shooting gallery arcade games like Point Blank etc, try playing with both of the guns and you'll soon see how hard it is to be accurate. The rate of fire boost isn't that tremendous either.
As for reloading, wouldn't you have to mess around to eject the magazine, find a new one, insert it, cock the pistol, etc? Having both hands full might make this a tad more difficult and time consuming.
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I remember playing Virtua Cop on my Sega Saturn years ago with dual pistols. Accuracy was just terrible with the second pistol, I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn (the accuracy of the other one was decrased as well), and rate of fire was indeed lower than rapid-firing with only one gun.
I quickly dropped one gun and resumed with only one... :D
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I'd like a chance to fire a real pistol... The largest weapon I've fired is an Air Rifle, closely followed by a BB pistol... :P
However, for the two-hands argument, if anyone's got access to those shooting gallery arcade games like Point Blank etc, try playing with both of the guns and you'll soon see how hard it is to be accurate. The rate of fire boost isn't that tremendous either.
As for reloading, wouldn't you have to mess around to eject the magazine, find a new one, insert it, cock the pistol, etc? Having both hands full might make this a tad more difficult and time consuming.
Yeah, I have shot several pistols and am a passable shot. I was once handed two 45 cal. pistols with three rounds apiece and told to unload them as fast as I could and still hit a nearby target. I think I put half of them clear over the horizon (which is a huge no-no). Now admittedly these were bigger than I was used to firing, but there's no question that it is much harder than just firing one handed or with the standard two handed stance (meaning two hands on one gun).
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As well, combat on average in real life tends to take place at distances signifigantly greater than those more typical to gameplay in UFO:AI.
Actually, from what I have heard and read, over in that country that is spelled with 4 letters, the US military is finding that the average gun battle takes place in less then 100 meters. The reason? The gun battles are happening on street corners and not out in the desert. Additionally, there is no static lines warfare ivolved, instead they are rallying around points, like a school building.
So what we are seeing in the game regarding ranges of combat is "realistic" enough.
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Actually, from what I have heard and read, over in that country that is spelled with 4 letters, the US military is finding that the average gun battle takes place in less then 100 meters. The reason? The gun battles are happening on street corners and not out in the desert. Additionally, there is no static lines warfare ivolved, instead they are rallying around points, like a school building.
So what we are seeing in the game regarding ranges of combat is "realistic" enough.
Are you claiming that point blank encounters are common in real combat? While much urban combat in 'real life' does take place at close range, I doubt you'll find any facts or figures confirming that a signifigant portion of encounters occurs at ultra short distances (which I shall define as 10 meters or less). In UFO:AI I'd estimate conservatively that about half, if not a majority of all conflict transpires at it (given that 1 tile = 1 meter).
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While much urban combat in 'real life' does take place at close range, I doubt you'll find any facts or figures confirming that a signifigant portion of encounters occurs at ultra short distances (which I shall define as 10 meters or less). In UFO:AI I'd estimate conservatively that about half, if not a majority of all conflict transpires at it (given that 1 tile = 1 meter).
Police forces and DEA raids are the most likely sources for determing 'point blank range' statistics, during warrant searches and house raids.
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Actually, from what I have heard and read, over in that country that is spelled with 4 letters, the US military is finding that the average gun battle takes place in less then 100 meters. The reason? The gun battles are happening on street corners and not out in the desert. Additionally, there is no static lines warfare ivolved, instead they are rallying around points, like a school building.
So what we are seeing in the game regarding ranges of combat is "realistic" enough.
Are you claiming that point blank encounters are common in real combat? While much urban combat in 'real life' does take place at close range, I doubt you'll find any facts or figures confirming that a signifigant portion of encounters occurs at ultra short distances (which I shall define as 10 meters or less). In UFO:AI I'd estimate conservatively that about half, if not a majority of all conflict transpires at it (given that 1 tile = 1 meter).
No, I said less the 100 meters. But yes, it also happens at less then 10 meters. I have a nephew who had to shoot a kid not much younger then him (he is 24) because the kid came around a corner in a back alley and wouldn't drop his AK47.
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Anyway, 10m is already wayyyyyy to far for dual pistols... :)
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No, I said less the 100 meters. But yes, it also happens at less then 10 meters. I have a nephew who had to shoot a kid not much younger then him (he is 24) because the kid came around a corner in a back alley and wouldn't drop his AK47.
See, that's the thing; my argument is concerned with point blank/extreme close range encounters. In order to debunk my related point (and support yours), namely one of the reasons dual wielding is rarely encountered in reality being that most encounters take place at greater distances, you'd have to provide figures which specify that a signifigant portion of 'real life' encounters take place at 10 meters or less. It does happen. I'm not arguing that, but I would definitely contest whether these encounters occur at anywhere near the same frequency as they do in UFO:AI. To state that a majority of them take place within 100 meters, and not mean that to signify point blank/ultra close range encounters is to contribute an irrelevant factoid.
Police forces and DEA raids are the most likely sources for determing 'point blank range' statistics, during warrant searches and house raids.
Sure, and I'm aware that these forces do not dual wield. However, the typical lack of frequency of extreme proximity situations is only one reason dual wielding is not employed. The availibility of superior alternatives is another. However, these same police forces do not have access to laser, plasma and particle beam pistols. I would argue that given present statistics, the firepower that the dual wielding of these weapons would afford signifigantly exceeds that of their larger counterparts in most cases, and thus compensates for the gratuitous inaccuracy, making the practice viable.
Anyway, 10m is already wayyyyyy to far for dual pistols...
That's the upper end of what is defined as "extreme close range", the lower being melee proximity.
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So, huh... you're basically saying that real-life military/LE forces don't dual wield pistols because :
1- ranges are often to big, and
2- dual pistols would be too much firepower
While your arguments may not be outrighlly wrong, they're not the reason why dual pistols are not used IRL :
1- extreme close range encounters DO occur for LE units (esp in buildings... and they are not few in UFO:AI !). I wish I could find you that report revealing that many gunfights involving police take place at about 3 METERS, and even then, many shots miss their target because of lack of aiming. What's more, every miss is a risk of stray bullet hitting an unintended target (read "civilian passer-by").
Thus, even the extreme close range (and its supposedly lower need for aiming) cannot make up for the ultra-poor accuracy of dual wielding.
(And BTW, 10 meters is more than the upper end of extreme close range : it's short-medium range for a pistol firefight).
2- If dual pistols are overkill for LE units, what would they NOT be overkill for ? Military ? They have access to better weaponry, namely machine pistols, SMG, and if encumbrance matters, PDW (tor instance, the H&K MP7 is only a tad larger than a full-size pistol). All of them are more accurate, faster-firing and often more powerful than dual pistols. They are also orders of magnitude easier to operate, while pistols are usually not fully ambidextrous (and many aren't)... and DEFINITELY NOT designed to be reloaded or unjammed single-handedly !
So to sum up, there is NOTHING dual pistol do better than a specialized weapon can. (the same goes for the Desert Eagle, but that's an other story...).
They *might* have a tiny bit of interest if you were some poor citizen caught in a civilian war with no resources to get better weapons, but for a world-funded specialized military unit, they are not even worth thinking of it.
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1- ranges are often to big, and
Yes. In most cases military engagements are fought at longer ranges than 10 meters (police are exceptional and I've noted this).
2- dual pistols would be too much firepower
Definitely not. I have conceded that armed forces have access to better alternatives (I should hope) than dual high powered pistols. When it comes to UFO:AI however, your soldiers gain access to powerful pistol firearms modelled after advanced technology that isn't presently availible. These pistols feature incredible stopping power coupled with appreciable range and, with the exception of the laser pistol (its larger counterparts don't possess it either) auto-fire. Based on the current statistics used, dual wielding with these weapons would most certainly be worthwhile in extreme close quarters, even with a prohibitive accuracy penalty applied (assuming it would enable the player to execute 2 attacks for the TU cost of one).
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Face it, pro-2-pistols people want dual pistols because it looks cool, end of story.
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Face it, pro-2-pistols people want dual pistols because it looks cool, end of story.
So true.
The balance between realism and 'coolness' factor is very important. ;)
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Face it, pro-2-pistols people want dual pistols because it looks cool, end of story.
It only LOOKS cool to people who don't know the reality of it. But as UFO:AI is a rather technically-contexted game, such "fantasy" should not be implemented.
If you want dual pistols, go play Tomb Raider. :P
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But as UFO:AI is a rather technically-contexted game,
Uh, hello, little green men, lasers, plasma and particle weapons, UFO:AI IS a fantasy game.
I do agree, thanks to holliwierd, the coolness of dual pistols, no matter how illogical, is a given. First and foremost, this is a game. To, you know, have fun with.
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I want it because it gives me a compelling reason to use pistols, and increases their viability. Maximizing the number of interesting options is always a good thing when it comes to game design.
That aside, while UFO:AI may be a hard sci-fi game, my points are no less true: combat occurs at extremely close ranges and advanced pistols when dual wielded tend to bring more firepower to bear than a single rifle or heavy variant of the same technology, which makes doing so reasonable under certain circumstances.
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Ahh, I think I see the disconnect. If I may:
advanced pistols when dual wielded tend to bring more firepower to bear than a single rifle or heavy variant of the same technology
Surreal, I think you are looking at this strictly in a numbers in the game way, while Brev is looking at it from a real world point of view.
I think a legit question, that would also bring us a full circle back to the one that started this thread would be:
How would a Dual Wield Pistol stack against the SMG?
How would a Dual Wield Laser pistol stack against the SMG?
How would Dual Plasma and Dual Particle stack?
From what has been said, it looks like the SMG would (and possible should) beat all four. Yes? No?
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Surreal, I think you are looking at this strictly in a numbers in the game way, while Brev is looking at it from a real world point of view.
I think a legit question, that would also bring us a full circle back to the one that started this thread would be:
How would a Dual Wield Pistol stack against the SMG?
How would a Dual Wield Laser pistol stack against the SMG?
How would Dual Plasma and Dual Particle stack?
From what has been said, it looks like the SMG would (and possible should) beat all four. Yes? No?
The SMG would be able (and probably should) to beat out the conventional and laser pistols in terms of sheer firepower. The same is certainly not true of the plasma and particle beam pistols however (which both have auto-fire and do superior damage).
I am also not looking at this purely from the perspective of in-game statistics. The as is capabilities and writeups of the pistol and heavier class advanced weapons also factor into my argument as well, namely the uniform availibility of autofire. Unless the doubled damage rate of the former is lesser than the latter, regardless of this uniformity, dual wielding retains purpose and value.
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And what if laser, plasma and/or particle machine pistols or SMG make their way into the game ? :P
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Actually they are already available. You just have to research them.
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What ? Laser SMG are already implemented ??? o_O
Since when/what version ?