Game Mechanics and Improvements Discusion

[Xeryx]

Hello Everyone, the board has been pretty quiet, I have done some reading and looked at a good many posts. I am midway in my game.  I have also played quite a few games in my day, as I gamed on the Commodore 64, the good ole days.  Of course Xcom is in my top 5 games of all times.  UFO AI, is quickly winning me over as well, especially the improvements over the original.

I want to tell you all personally, I am very impressed with the progress of this game over the last 5 years. I know you have put your hearts and souls into this game.  I have made many mods in my days as well, and it takes lots of dedication and patience to get the results you want.

I will also be donating to this project, because I believe your work and effort are deserving of that.  So enough flattery, time to get down to business. I definitely do not have time to look at all the posts on this board and I want to talk about the latest June 19th build.

I am really excited to give feedback here because this is not a Big Game Developer.
That I why I end up modding and changing stuff myself, because they usually don't care. I do, and am willing to help and learn.

I know some of what I am about to talk about has been covered in other threads. It would be nice if we had a posted thread of issues that are being worked on. Short answers are fine with me.

1) I read a thread about TU and Reserve shots and I think the game should get back to basics and do what XCOM or JA2 did they did a good job.  Have reserve shot always on, no check box.  I really don't need the computer to STOP me from movement, and I prefer it not too (this could be a game play option, maybe).  All I have to do as a Player is pick the proper fire type before movement as it would subtract the RF TU's as it does but I want an option to not stop, but maybe warn me, that I do not have enough TU's for RF. This would greatly simplify RF TU's.  If I run into an alien, then I can either fire, or take cover without having the game stop me.  Much like the original game.

Since I am on the topic of TU's. Reaction fire should not cost 8 pts (I read somewhere) 4 would suffice and it could be built into the first shot??

I think the weight penalty is too harsh. I would like to the penalty lowered to 8 or 6, and then happen again at every 15-20% beyond the 50%

Full auto options on hand held carried weapons is unrealistic and does NOT enhance game play. Military units very seldom ever use it, except when suppressing an enemy. And that is because it is so inaccurate and a WASTE of ammo. It should also cost WAY more than it does)only a very skilled gunner could  shoot more than 10 rounds effectively. Now a UAV or vehicle on the other hand, can use full auto with effectiveness, mainly with gyro compensation and targeting software and camera's.

Please bring back Aimed shots for all weapons, that have had it removed.

I also would like to have back the Airbursting grenades it is a handy tactical option.
Just make sure alien armor is adequate for them in protection.

I won't go into some of the changes that I would make to balance some of the weapons that I can mod myself, unless you would like to discuss them. Overall though I like the newer combat, in this version, the ai is doing better.  I did see quite a bit of negative difference in alien troop deployment in base invasions. 2 of them so far,90% of the aliens were deployed outside of my bases very few actually found their way inside.  This changed since the December version. I will probably have to start over to get reliable results for sure, but it might be something to check on.

I would also like to see the initial stats of the soldiers upped by 10-20 for all stats.  These are trained soldiers, and even though it is new to them to fight aliens, tactics are fundamental, but evolve for different foes. 

This brings me to Pilots, with the new improvements to the game. Pilots stats need raised, as they really don't stand a chance with 10-15's at least put it in the 30's.  I understand the difference in technology is great, and that they should be superior in many ways, but as a Player, I need that feeling of satisfaction of a good ole "dogfight"... that is gone now. It is like one hit or two and my planes are gone.  (Money is far too tight for me to replace interceptors every engagement.) Don't' give me wrong I don't mind loosing a fight, or some fighters and pilots for that matter, but there is no sustained long range combat or evasion happening. The year is 2084 and even missiles today can travel hundreds of miles for engagements. I don't mind if I have to have 2 or 3 fighters engaged to bring down a harvester or , but when a UFO wipes out 2 or 3 of them in a matter of seconds and I have not even scratched them,  that ruins that part of the game for me. Let alone the damage is so great, that there isn't any evasion to return to base, or eject options.  I do not care if they have more powerful weapons than me, I am still superior...LOL

I also realize the need to build the alien type interceptors, and I want to thank you for lowering the alien Materials for them. That was a good move, but I feel that the hours to build them need increased. I would like to see a 10% bonus to production for every connected Laboratory, and Workshop.

2) Here is one of my major issues with the game mechanics, when you build something it costs you the FULL amount that it would for BUYING it.  This destroys financial strategies for me, it also depreciates the value of workshops greatly. For me this does not make any sense whatsoever.  I.E. If i scan an object with a 3d printer I can print and equivalent object for a fraction of what it cost me to "buy" it.  That is the purpose of having a Production Shop.  When I am not building for my teams, I want to be able to sell stuff and make some profit.  It would be cool though to see, a bonus for more efficient production after the first couple of items are built.

It really feels to me as though base defenses have been neglected, there are not enough upgrades at mid point of the game to help out your fighters, or bring down the new and improved ufos. how about a Hybrid Missile Launcher for the base, or a refit for the Sam sites.

I do want to thank you for adding in the additional columns for the target destination for transfers, it was very much needed!! Awesome job!

3) Over to the Soldiers equipping screens. Thank you for adding the equip soldiers tab! But there needs to be a couple more things added. If there could be a small symbol indicating they are on an aircraft that would help.

Under the aircraft Soldiers screen (where you pick soldiers for the aircraft) I want an unequip soldier button if possible.  This is needed badly, so that I can unequip wounded soldiers, if needed (because I can see their health here). I do not want to have wounded soldiers on the aircraft for a mission.   I also don't build a crapload of extra equipment, unless I want to SELL it! so I have to unequip wounded soldiers and get another one to take their place.

Can you please add a tab in the screen where you do equip soldiers for deployment, that shows the rank, mission info and health of the soldier. Everytime my soldiers come back from a mission, and they are wounded, I have to micromanage them. I have to flip through 3 screens to unequip the proper hurt soldier, and that is very annoying.  Maybe when they come back hurt beyond 10% the computer can unequip them for me?

Please do not take these things as rants or really criticism. The game is great fun to play, but with every new change comes balancing.  I do have more to discuss, but it is time to make dinner for the kids.  I am also willing to help, in whatever way I can.

Have a great night and thank you for making a very good game!

EDIT: Most important fixes, for game mechanics that cannot be modded, are highlighted in YELLOW

Xeryx

[H-Hour]

I think you have exceeded your opinion quota for the day. I'm happy to reply to your thoughts, but can you please pick 3 things that you consider your top priority issues and I will respond to those. I really don't have the time or energy to write a 1,000-word reply.

[Xeryx]

I am sure I did exceed my quota..LOL I just have high standards.

I have highlighted the most important 3 items, by your command...

I am open to beta testing, and helping if you would like.  I have some connections from other mods, I maybe able to recruit some help if you like.

[heisenbug]

Hi Xeryx and H-Hour,
I'll answer to a couple of the (minor) comments, leaving the major ones to the devs.

I would also like to see the initial stats of the soldiers upped by 10-20 for all stats.  These are trained soldiers, and even though it is new to them to fight aliens, tactics are fundamental, but evolve for different foes. 

Very recently there has been a change on the experience points and stats growth, see here http://ufoai.org/forum/index.php/topic,7845.0.html. Now the soldiers experience a rapid growth in the first missions, and my veterans are well past the 40-es in their key stats after 20 missions or so. A good side effect is that you can hire a soldier and "retrain" it to a different type of weapon, if you need it, and get reasonable statistics in just a few missions.

Since I am on the topic of TU's. Reaction fire should not cost 8 pts (I read somewhere) 4 would suffice and it could be built into the first shot??

The TU's required for reaction fire are exactly those needed for shooting, nothing more. So a shotgun requires 8 TUs, an assault rifle requires 9 8 TUs for the snapshot, a sniper rifle requires 15. If you search on the forum you'll find long discussions on this topic.

A final comment on point (2). As I understood, one of the reasons behind having the cost of production the same as the price for buying is that the workshop should not be a mean to get significant amounts of money. But like this, if you have a lot of workers and anything to build you are just paying the salary for nothing. It may be reasonable, it all comes down to what the workers are doing during the campaign. Right now, my 40 workers are starting to produce laser weapons, and after that they'll probably start to produce advanced interceptors. But for a couple of weeks they just played poker in the workshop, since plasma weapons are for free, UFOs to dismantle are more scarce, and you can buy anything else on-line and get it delivered in a blink of an eye. I'm still in beginning-mid game, so I cannot judge on this, but I'll report for sure when (if) I finish the campaign.

Enjoy the game!

[H-Hour]

1) I read a thread about TU and Reserve shots and I think the game should get back to basics and do what XCOM or JA2 did they did a good job.  Have reserve shot always on, no check box.  I really don't need the computer to STOP me from movement, and I prefer it not too (this could be a game play option, maybe).  All I have to do as a Player is pick the proper fire type before movement as it would subtract the RF TU's as it does but I want an option to not stop, but maybe warn me, that I do not have enough TU's for RF. This would greatly simplify RF TU's.  If I run into an alien, then I can either fire, or take cover without having the game stop me.  Much like the original game.

To be honest, I'm not sure I agree with you on this one. I like that when RF is activated I won't accidentally spend those TUs. Also, I wouldn't want RF always on, because sometimes I don't want my units to waste ammo on very low-probability shots. This is especially the case for something like the Bolter, which has very low ammo per magazine and often my snipers can not carry more than a few magazines.

2) Here is one of my major issues with the game mechanics, when you build something it costs you the FULL amount that it would for BUYING it.  This destroys financial strategies for me, it also depreciates the value of workshops greatly. For me this does not make any sense whatsoever.  I.E. If i scan an object with a 3d printer I can print and equivalent object for a fraction of what it cost me to "buy" it.  That is the purpose of having a Production Shop.  When I am not building for my teams, I want to be able to sell stuff and make some profit.  It would be cool though to see, a bonus for more efficient production after the first couple of items are built.

There are two sides to this issue. First, from a gameplay perspective, we've long said that the economics of the game should be based around combat performance and nation happiness -- not the scale of your production line. I think this is the right choice. Second, from a "realism" perspective, I do not agree with the fundamental premise that something fabricated in a PHALANX workshop should be cheaper than buying it on the market. See my reply in this thread regarding the cost-efficiencies of scale and the PHALANX workshop. In terms of managing your finances, you should look to UFO disassembly for ensuring your workforce remains cost-effective while they are not busy producing necessary supplies. They can even earn a very small profit.

3) Over to the Soldiers equipping screens. Thank you for adding the equip soldiers tab! But there needs to be a couple more things added. If there could be a small symbol indicating they are on an aircraft that would help.

Under the aircraft Soldiers screen (where you pick soldiers for the aircraft) I want an unequip soldier button if possible.  This is needed badly, so that I can unequip wounded soldiers, if needed (because I can see their health here). I do not want to have wounded soldiers on the aircraft for a mission.   I also don't build a crapload of extra equipment, unless I want to SELL it! so I have to unequip wounded soldiers and get another one to take their place.

Can you please add a tab in the screen where you do equip soldiers for deployment, that shows the rank, mission info and health of the soldier. Everytime my soldiers come back from a mission, and they are wounded, I have to micromanage them. I have to flip through 3 screens to unequip the proper hurt soldier, and that is very annoying.  Maybe when they come back hurt beyond 10% the computer can unequip them for me?

I agree with all three of these things. Hopefully they will be implemented when we get UI2 in place, but these kinds of useability issues remain low-priority so often linger for longer than they should.

[Xeryx]

The TU's required for reaction fire are exactly those needed for shooting, nothing more. So a shotgun requires 8 TUs, an assault rifle requires 9 8 TUs for the snapshot, a sniper rifle requires 15. If you search on the forum you'll find long discussions on this topic.

This statement is incorrect. It takes 8, 12 or 15 to fire the weapon in direct fire. RF TU's require an additional 8 points. Your unit will not fire RF without this check box being checked, even if you reserved those 8, 12 or 15 points from your previous movement using the (Shot Reservation window) . 

On RF TU's;  If you look at the TU's bar that shows the units total time units.  When you hit reserve it puts a green line using 8 TU's. (the status window also says this (reserved 8 units) When you select snap shot in the shot reservation window, the game adds another 8 TU's to the bar, for a total of 16(again confirmed in the status window at the bottom,not 8 TU's).  This plainly tells me, that in order to do a RF, that these 8 TU's are specifically for that action. 8 is too many points IMHO, 4 total would be fine. 

I know I am not the only one confused by this system, judging by other threads. Because there are 2 separate functions for setting up your RF (RF Check box and SHOT reservation window(as they are labeled that), is where it is making things cumbersome and confusing, my point is  even Heisenburg doesn't seem to understand how it works (no offense Heisenburg) and he was trying to explain it to me, a newb to this game.

My main point here is this, it is because the Shot Reservation Window is also used for selecting direct fire at the enemy! This is why it is all confusing for a player.  Maybe If you do reservation TU's with an icon instead, like Xcom did or even a separate window, it would be way less confusing.

In my version of the Shot Reservation Window. I would have the check mark box for kneeling (in the window), and all the TU's for Shooting would have all the TU's correctly added up.  I also would only have max of 2 types of reservation shots. Snap, and Burst. I strongly feel special aiming modes should only be used in DIRECT fire selection (attack). So my version could just about work with just an icon that changes modes.

If we do the math, a snap shot would have 4 (kneeling) + 8 (RF Tu's) + 8 (snap shot) = 20 points.  So for starting characters leaving (on average) 10 points for movement (that includes facing changes). Leaving only 1/3 of the normal 30 points to get across a map with. To me this is too expensive, it should be around 50%, so I can still get around the battlefield. Now I haven't played on enough maps to know if types of terrain effect movement. I am assuming 2 points per square and 1 point for any facing changes.  The Aliens sure can move a hell of a lot more (about 2x that)! and Still have a reserve shot.

Heck maybe if you just take out the reaction fire selection all together and just have the computer use your remaining TU's that you can save from the prior turn, people won't be confused at all. In real life it takes the same action whether on offense or defense to fire a weapon, some weapons and certain action take longer, but they always take the same amount of time. In other words having 8 addition TU's for reaction fire if unbalanced. It should be like 2 or 4 per target reaction fired against.

The inherent problem with using straight points vs. percentages is that the game can be unbalanced in the beginning and the late game.  There obviously is not an easy answer to solve this issue, but I am trying to explain myself more clearly than before. I want this to be a discussion not a argument of who is right or wrong, but looking for solution to make the game play smooth, with minimal confusion for the average player. 

Here is something very annoying. To deactivate RF you Left click, because it is a toggle and to deactivate Reserved Fire mode you Right click. just annoying.

Thank you all for responding to the post!

Sorry, this is all I have time to respond to tonight. 

[ShipIt]

Heisenbug explained the RF mechanic quite well. There is some additional info around this post. I recommend reading through the 2.5 sucks completely tread, as it contains a lot of usefull information. Some things changed in time, though.

Beside that, making several threads to discuss single questions would be better than tl,dr.

[H-Hour]

As ShipIt said, Heisenbug's explanation was correct and your understanding of RF is wrong. Where you are getting confused is the shot reservation button. This has nothing to do with RF, but is merely for reserving TUs during your active turn.

There is so much information in the forums about reaction fire and almost all of it is inaccurate. The single, authoritative source on how RF works is now in the game. Go to your ufopaedia and read the Reaction Fire entry under Basic Concepts (Ground Combat).

[Xeryx]

Actually, I have read the UFOPEDIA, and it say that "reaction fire must be enabled in the soldiers control panel"  A vague explanation at best.  So if all the checkbox does is stop the unit from wasting its movement, why does it add 8 points to the TU's reserved???

Well you can dismiss what I see as a new player to this game, and treat me like a troll while you are at it.  You can also dismiss that I have valid points and experienced feedback. That's upto you, but it still doesn't change a thing.

It needs revamped, and clarified in how operates, and is explained.  As a game player if it works so great, I should NOT have to have it explained on a forum of how it works. It should clear from the help in the game.

Yes, I did get confused about direct fire selection.

Considering I have quite a bit of experience in modding AI, and other types of mods for games. I am not a newb at turn based gaming or gaming in general. I will go look at you forums more in depth and go post in those threads.  I will also go test some RF without that check box and see if they fire.

EDIT : Nope, RF does NOT work without spending 8 more points, by having the check box enabled.

[H-Hour]

Well that deteriorated quickly...

[Crystan]

I just read the last 2 posts but if i understood you right you still didn't understand how to actual activate RF:

You can activate RF by first clicking on the "round" buttons in your fire options menu:
(mind it doesn't reserve any TUs for RF, means you still need enough TUs for RF to happen - for this is the other button).

Then you have to click on the small shield icon to activate RF for the soldier. If this icon has a small X, no reaction fire will be taken.

The pistol icon above the shield icon is just to reserve TUs for any shooting action, to make sure you have enough TUs for using your weapons after movement actions.

edit - corrected information and attached an image showing the necessary icons.