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Author Topic: Attack which UFO with what ?  (Read 16975 times)

Offline anonymissimus

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Attack which UFO with what ?
« on: November 17, 2015, 03:16:10 pm »
As I never do saveload - also not when in the campaign environment - I would like to hear some experience.

Is there a way to take down a harvester with only human tech for instance. Generally, I attack anything larger than a fighter only late in the campaign when I have starchaser already, which can take it down safely (with 2 particle beams, 1 laser and 2 alien warefare suits, no armor). Recently I downed a fighter with a saracen (2 particle beams, 1 alien warefare suit, 1 targeting computer, no armor) and survived with 4% hitpoints or so. When I already was that low I decided that only killing the fighter would safe me now, as I would probably have been hit again while trying to flee, and it worked. So this was too risky, I can't afford losing the 50000 credits or so which this ship is worth. This was in 2.6, where saracen has less hitpoints than in 2.5. IIRC a fighter can be taken down by a stilletto with 3 lasers too, don't recall about the electronics but at least 1 alien warefare suite seems mandatory, and no amor. As armor makes the ships slower, I often don't use it.
Human techs only are insufficient to attack anything armed as to my knowledge, so only scouts and supply ships are possible with those, which makes the human tech air rockets useless.
EDIT
IIRC I also once, in despair, destroyed a harvester which was chasing my firebird dropship with all the good soldiers on board using 2 stilettos and a ground SAM site. The stilettos were IIRC armed with 3 lasers each and no armor, don't know about the electronics. The harvester ignored the stilettos and continued chasing the fleeing firebird, which made victory possible. As stilettos are slower than harvesters, which appear very soon, I normally prefer saracens instead, as stilettos cannot flee from a harvester chasing them.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2015, 05:25:18 pm by anonymissimus »

Offline hoiba

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Re: Attack which UFO with what ?
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2015, 01:11:34 pm »
you can take out every UFO (important: which has NO rockets equipped!!) by using 2 Stiletto-fighters with sparrowhawk AA missiles and some armor.

With the missiles you can fire while the cannons of the UFOs are still not in range:

- for best results launch both Stilettos from the same base at the same time
- approach the UFO until the first missiles are fired
- immediately do a 180° turn to fly away from the UFO
- when the missiles hit the target do a 180° again and fire the 2nd salvo of missiles
- repeat

It's a lot of micromanagement which is best done with no time-compression set. Of course the UFOs are faster than the Stilettos and will come in weapons range at some point. But usually they will be shot down before.

I'm sure some will say this may be cheating or misusing game mechanics. But I feel it's a legit tactic to do so.
If you know you can fire at the enemy before he can fire on you, you always try to stay out of his range while pounding him with all you've got. What's good enough for warships on the oceans is surely good enough for well experienced fighter-pilots in their struggle against an superior enemy.

If you found the foes weakness - use it.

Ah.. by the way... I didn't test this on hard or very hard. So maybe this tactic won't work there.

Offline anonymissimus

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Re: Attack which UFO with what ?
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2015, 11:19:09 pm »
Thanks, nice. Well, when fighting melee enemies in ground combat (kerrbladers, spiders) we're doing basically the same, right ? I don't think air combat is affected by difficulty.
Quote
important: which has NO rockets equipped
Fighters and harvesters then, but not corrupters, gunboats and bombers. (And of course the unarmed scouts and supply ships.) Fighters are slower than stilettos, so the tactic can be used safely against these.

Offline geever

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Re: Attack which UFO with what ?
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2015, 12:32:51 pm »
Oww, hoiba, you are abusing a bug in the engine.... so basicallyy Cheating!!

-geever

Offline Pharaufein

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Re: Attack which UFO with what ?
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2015, 09:53:12 am »
I am using this tactic too. The aliens are basically asking for it if they let themselves be outranged by the silly human sparrowhawk.

However, it feels wrong that this can be used to win all fights vs fighters and harvesters unscathed.

Three easy solutions come to mind:
  • Limit the ammo of the sparrowhawk, so that hit & run is possible but cannot be abused indefinitely
  • Increase the speed of ufos while they are in combat so that they can close in
  • Give Ufos some long range weaponry so that they can shoot back [\li]

Offline hoiba

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Re: Attack which UFO with what ?
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2015, 11:43:30 am »
Oww, hoiba, you are abusing a bug in the engine.... so basicallyy Cheating!!

-geever

uh-oh!  ??? .. please don't put me into the alien containment with the other bad guys   :o



I am using this tactic too. The aliens are basically asking for it if they let themselves be outranged by the silly human sparrowhawk.

However, it feels wrong that this can be used to win all fights vs fighters and harvesters unscathed.

Three easy solutions come to mind:
  • Limit the ammo of the sparrowhawk, so that hit & run is possible but cannot be abused indefinitely
  • Increase the speed of ufos while they are in combat so that they can close in
  • Give Ufos some long range weaponry so that they can shoot back [\li]


I think there's no need for a change. Keeping 2 Stilettos in the base(es) is expensive. In both money and space (hangar, equip). You can't keep doing this for ever. Especially in mid-/endgame when Stilettos are almost 1shots for the bigger UFOs.

Offline anonymissimus

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Re: Attack which UFO with what ?
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2015, 04:20:03 pm »
Oww, hoiba, you are abusing a bug in the engine.... so basicallyy Cheating!!
I'm taking this as self-irony.
I think there's no need for a change. Keeping 2 Stilettos in the base(es) is expensive. In both money and space (hangar, equip). You can't keep doing this for ever. Especially in mid-/endgame when Stilettos are almost 1shots for the bigger UFOs.
Not sure whether I would want to do it too. Following harvesters with saracens to catch the mission when they land yields an undamaged UFO and thus a good deal more money, with less risk and costs.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2015, 04:21:59 pm by anonymissimus »

Offline Pharaufein

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Re: Attack which UFO with what ?
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2015, 06:51:27 pm »
I think there's no need for a change. Keeping 2 Stilettos in the base(es) is expensive. In both money and space (hangar, equip). You can't keep doing this for ever. Especially in mid-/endgame when Stilettos are almost 1shots for the bigger UFOs.

I think there is.

Before I knew of this exploit, I already regarded the sparrowhawk as the best early game aircraft weapon, overshadowing the TR20,
I kept two stilettos in each base to be safe from fighters. If one was damaged in a fight, the other one was still available.
I also rushed the research of aerial laser and particle beams to make my airfleet more reliable.
Attacking harvesters was impossible before having access to the dragon.

With the exploit, it is completely safe to use only one stiletto to be safe from fighters
And there is no reason anymore to research aerial lasers or particle beams, or to even equip an ECM or targeting computer.
Harvesters are a piece of cake with two stilettos and completely safe to attack.

This disparity was clearly not intended by the devs.
Not sure whether I would want to do it too. Following harvesters with saracens to catch the mission when they land yields an undamaged UFO and thus a good deal more money, with less risk and costs.

I agree that it is most often preferable to let harvesters land.
However, it saved my butt once to be able to shoot down a harvester heading for one of my bases.
Also saved my butt once, 
 

Offline anonymissimus

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Re: Attack which UFO with what ?
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2015, 08:48:20 pm »
With the exploit, it is completely safe to use only one stiletto to be safe from fighters
A harvester might show up and target your stiletto when it's far away from a base to escape to so you're f*cked. The risk balances the exploit.

The money for the hangars sure is a big deal as well, I'd rather have more labs instead.
Quote
And there is no reason anymore to research aerial lasers or particle beams, or to even equip an ECM or targeting computer.
Sparrowhawks are heavyweight, saracens or the nose of a starchaser cannot be equipped with them. And missiles are kind of expensive, I don't want to pay that for shooting supply ships into the sea.
EDIT
And without hoiba's exploit, what usage would the human aircraft weaponry have ? I found them to be useless otherwise (against armed UFOs).
« Last Edit: November 21, 2015, 09:10:39 pm by anonymissimus »

Offline Pharaufein

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Re: Attack which UFO with what ?
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2015, 10:12:47 am »
A harvester might show up and target your stiletto when it's far away from a base to escape to so you're f*cked. The risk balances the exploit.
That can happen but harvesters are only slightly faster than stilettos.
Worst case you loose the stiletto and insta-buy a new one for 20k(stiletto) + 2*7k(sparrowhawk racks). 
Still cheaper than a hangar and you save the maintenance too.

The money for the hangars sure is a big deal as well, I'd rather have more labs instead.Sparrowhawks are heavyweight, saracens or the nose of a starchaser cannot be equipped with them. And missiles are kind of expensive, I don't want to pay that for shooting supply ships into the sea.
Granted, the aerial laser is kinda neat to shoot down scouts and supply ships for free.
But the point is that there is no pressure to get it.

By the way, is the saracen any good? I never tried it out.

EDIT
And without hoiba's exploit, what usage would the human aircraft weaponry have ? I found them to be useless otherwise (against armed UFOs).
Their use is to enable shooting down fighters.
The exploit trivializes that, making the sparrowhawk the best weapon (better than particle beam, it is better than TR20 anyway) until you get access to advanced aircraft.

I think the exploit is actually fun, introducing some tactics and micromanagement into air battles.
Still it is an exploit as fighters are completely helpless against it.
I would prefer long range weapons to be a strategy and not an exploit, by somehow enabling fighters/harvesters to fight back.

Offline hoiba

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Re: Attack which UFO with what ?
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2015, 07:34:40 pm »
Well, it's not an exploit in my opinion. This tactic would be used by every real life fighter pilot as well. If he knows his weaponry can out-range the enemies he would use hit-and-run as well.
Dogfights, where the planes are circling around each other at short range almost never happen since WW2. It's all about long range rocket hits and stuff.

Different weapons have different ranges/accuracy. You also use snipers at long rage and AR at short/med range, aren't you?

And it perfectly fits into the story: aliens learn that their particle beams are not effective against sparrowhawks and come up with the alien rocket tech.

It's only an exploit if you pause the game to do the micromanagement.

Offline Pharaufein

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Re: Attack which UFO with what ?
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2015, 08:16:00 pm »
Well, it's not an exploit in my opinion. This tactic would be used by every real life fighter pilot as well. If he knows his weaponry can out-range the enemies he would use hit-and-run as well.
Dogfights, where the planes are circling around each other at short range almost never happen since WW2. It's all about long range rocket hits and stuff.

Different weapons have different ranges/accuracy. You also use snipers at long rage and AR at short/med range, aren't you?

And it perfectly fits into the story: aliens learn that their particle beams are not effective against sparrowhawks and come up with the alien rocket tech.

It's only an exploit if you pause the game to do the micromanagement.

I completely agree that outranging the enemy is a valid tactic and I like that there is a weapon available to do this.
However, a real life pilot would not have unlimited missiles to play with.
And he could not hope to outspeed an ufo with antimatter drives (by the fluff).

Offline hoiba

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Re: Attack which UFO with what ?
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2015, 10:28:15 am »
However, a real life pilot would not have unlimited missiles to play with.

oh .. I didn't know there are unlimited missiles... that should be fixed.. I totally agree.

Offline Pharaufein

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Re: Attack which UFO with what ?
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2015, 10:38:52 am »
oh .. I didn't know there are unlimited missiles... that should be fixed.. I totally agree.

At least I never ran out of them and the description of the sparrowhawk does not state any ammo.
I ran out of shiva / aerial laser ammo though, and these state an amount of ammo.

So I guess once you equip a sparrowhawk, you have unlimited missiles for one interception.
I would suggest a limitation of 2-3 missiles per rack, so that one can kite certain ufos, but not forever.

Offline hoiba

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Re: Attack which UFO with what ?
« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2015, 12:42:24 pm »
Well.. if we take the actual F22 Raptor as basis.... it can equip 6 med-range AA Missiles (AIM-120) ...so 3 sparrowhawk per stack would be perfectly fine.