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Author Topic: Soldiers shooting soldiers  (Read 5835 times)

Offline Hell-Fire

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Soldiers shooting soldiers
« on: April 27, 2014, 05:27:16 am »
Hello,

Sorry if this is a repeat, but I did try to search to see if anyone else posted this.  What I want to state is, why are our soldiers so incompetent when firing their weapons.  Seriously, how is it that a soldier firing his weapon, is able to shoot his fellow member when aiming at an alien?  There have been numerous missions where the wounds my soldiers receive aren't from the aliens, but from their own team mates.

I've played various games, UFO Aftermath/Aftershock/Afterlight, etc, and pretty much if they can't shoot without hitting their team member, they don't fire.  Also the fact, I've had members with 95% chance to hit its target and yet, they still hit their own team member.

I've fired weapons, from pistols, rifles, and automatic rifles, and I'm able to shoot around obstacles without hitting them or just don't take the shot.  Star Wars stormtroopers are have more common sense and dexterity to not hit their own members, yet the Phalanx team members seem to have no problem shooting their own team mates.

The only time they are able to shoot without hitting their team mates is when they fire during their reaction time.  But seriously, when I select a soldier, then its target and have a high percentage chance to hit, I seem to hit my own team mate that is a mere few feet/meters from me.  If you can't fire and not hit your team member which is next to you, then sheesh you shouldn't have a weapon in the first place.

Offline MonkeyHead

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Re: Soldiers shooting soldiers
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2014, 10:11:44 am »
If you are shooting, and the aiming line has gone red, then you only have yourself to blame. If it has not, then there might be a number of other factors at play. I have managed to hit my own troops that are in front of me and one square to the side with weapons with a high spread carried by soldiers with no so good accuracy while disembarking my dropship - shotgun + plasma blaster are the worst offenders, but I have managed it with any weapon with full auto or area of effect. The reaction fire not hitting is AFAIK a function of the reaction fire checks. I agree its not great that this occurs, but it is really not that hard to not so it - are you really keeping all your soldiers so close together for enough time that this is constantly an issue? This will probably make the aliens job so much easier. I put at least a 1-tile space between all my soldiers when on the move, and that was before I ever found them accidentally hitting each other.

Offline DarkRain

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Re: Soldiers shooting soldiers
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2014, 10:19:11 pm »
When you are in control, the game won't ever stop you from shooting anything (as long as the weapon is researched and you have ammo and TUs) ̣— you can even actively target and shoot your own troops — it's up to you to evaluate the risks and decide to take them, or not; reaction fire is obviously different, because you are *not* in control, so the game has to be on the cautious side in order to not screw the player up, but it can still happen that reaction fire hits friendly troops (or civilians) it just isn't as likely.

Offline Grug

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Re: Soldiers shooting soldiers
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2014, 05:53:13 am »
When you are in control, the game won't ever stop you from shooting anything
Sure, of course... but I think the incidence of soldiers hitting other soldiers is still too high. If they are elite troops like they are meant to be then when shooting past a fellow soldier (with a green line shot) the chance of hitting the soldier should be the exception, not the rule.

I agree that certain weapons have a wider spread and therefore will have a larger chance to hit something outside the direct aim, but it seems like the accuracy is too loose for relatively accurate weapons like the assault rifle.

Offline Noordung

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Re: Soldiers shooting soldiers
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2014, 07:59:54 am »
played a lot of mssions and i think i only hit my soliders one or two times. and another two times civilians. so i dont think this is a problem. but its all about how you deploy your soliders.

Offline geever

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Re: Soldiers shooting soldiers
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2014, 05:52:30 pm »
You should have played the original series, not just the "After" life... ;) You could accidentally hit&kill your own soldiers quite often in X-COM 1-3. Great old memories...

-geever

Offline Duke

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Re: Soldiers shooting soldiers
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2014, 11:08:29 pm »
I also noticed that the spread is much too wide imho. Even though the AI checks the spread, they still hit their mates pretty often.

@Grug:
AI_CheckFF() assumes the spread defined in the scripts to be the max deviation for bullits.
G_ShootSingle() - the actual shooting - uses the spread to modify a gauss value. gauss is infinite...
The math inside is a bit beyond me. So if you want to give it a try, I would appreciate it.

Offline DarkRain

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Re: Soldiers shooting soldiers
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2014, 12:16:42 am »
Even in the After* series it is possible to hit your own teammates, come on, they even show the hit chance for your own troops if they are in the way of your shooting (or inside the splash area)

Hint: A soldier can always shoot over crouching friendlies (or maybe only teammates) without _ever_ hitting them, as long as they are directly adjacent (but that is *not* always the case with grenades - you have been warned)

The standard (gaussian) distribution curve may be infinite, but over 99% of the area under it (the probability) falls within ±3 standard deviations from the mean, so that might be a better max for checks (basically make the max deviation for bullets equal 3 times the spread)

Edit: Even 2 SD's will contain over 95% of the results
« Last Edit: April 29, 2014, 12:20:58 am by DarkRain »

Offline H-Hour

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Re: Soldiers shooting soldiers
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2014, 10:07:51 am »
The other thing to note is that the green/red lines that are painted by the game represent approximations. You still need to use your judgement. If the line of fire is green but goes close to your soldiers and you're using a weapon with a bit of spread, then you're probably taking a risk in firing.

Offline Grug

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Re: Soldiers shooting soldiers
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2014, 12:11:28 pm »
The other thing to note is that the green/red lines that are painted by the game represent approximations. You still need to use your judgement. If the line of fire is green but goes close to your soldiers and you're using a weapon with a bit of spread, then you're probably taking a risk in firing.
Sure, but three shots from an assault rifle by an elite troop shooting over or past someone's shoulder (especially coming out of the dropship), shouldn't result in them getting hit.

Offline Hell-Fire

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Re: Soldiers shooting soldiers
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2014, 01:32:24 pm »
I usually only do single shots and most of the time aimed shots with a green and soldiers are one square to either side of the green line to target.  Their rating with the weapon is 30 or higher and yet I still have a high ratio of shooting my own soldiers.

Offline Core

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Re: Soldiers shooting soldiers
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2014, 05:40:19 pm »
I had some of these incidents too, I think three or four. And I never shoot close to my soldiers or civilians with automatic weapons. That's why all of the incidents happened when using the sniper rifle ;D

I mean, come on, it is possible irl to shoot your friend next to you when shooting autofire from assault rifle, but I highly doubt that a trained sniper shooting on a very far target, looking through a telescopic sight, would shoot his teammate - few meters in front of him - to the back.
I think the gaussian function in case of such weapons as sniper rifles should be much much sharper. With the same chance to actually hit the alien, but with the misses to be very close, not like 20° off :)

Offline Schilcote

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Re: Soldiers shooting soldiers
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2014, 07:43:21 pm »
On a related note, it would be really nice to have a "This shot might hit a teammate! Are you sure?" dialogue come up when firing at far-off targets with wall-penetrating weapons. All my friendly fire incidents have been with the electromagnetic rifle when I didn't notice there was a guy standing between the alien and my sniper, and the line either stayed green or I thought it was picking up terrain.

Offline frumius

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Re: Soldiers shooting soldiers
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2014, 06:04:53 pm »
Hey, I just had one of my guys panic and deliberately shoot two of his teammates. I have never seen or heard of that happening in real combat. That doesn't seem to be a common panic response. I am a combat veteran and even experienced some panic myself. Usually panic results in a freeze or drop weapon and run and hide. I suppose it could happen but I have never read about such a thing. anyone else know more?

Offline Noordung

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Re: Soldiers shooting soldiers
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2014, 06:12:46 pm »
your soliders usually just run away. but they rarely panic. 2.4 maybe some more but i only saw them panic in 2.6 once ot two times.