A few ideas for bases

[Eegxeta]

I read the plan for making bases bigger and cutting down the number of required buildings for a base. I was thinking since the radar dishes aren't actually in the base the radar building could be merged with the command center, but the advanced radar should be a separate building still.

When aliens attack you base your pilots, workers, and scientists should be in the base according to how they are assigned so scientists would be in the labs, workers would be in the workshop and pilots would be in the hangers. They wouldn't wonder around the base, but would rather head over to the living quarters or maybe some sort of raid shelter which could be added if this is put in. This would make attacks on your base a lot more devastating. When the workers and scientists are changed to just numbers instead of individual people if you add in a few hours delivery time for them. This would make base design critical during attacks, because you could lose more that just your soldiers.

Another thing that would go well with this would be weapons lockers in each building in the base that carry a couple of pistols, assault rifles and some ammo that people could pick up so your pilots, workers and scientists wouldn't be totally helpless. Even if they had a gun they wouldn't actively seek out and engage the aliens, but if they do see an alien they could take cover and shoot at them, but run as soon as the alien starts shooting back at them or take a shot or two then run. You could do both and make it a special button available during base attacks base personal defend themselves or shoot and run. It would make sense that all personal in the base would have at least basic firearms operation training. The base being empty during base attacks is just really weird especially in those bases that have like 60 personal.

Workers should be able to help build buildings in your base and speed up aircraft repair. It could work like any other production. For buildings workers could be assigned to base building in the production screen so you wouldn't need a workshop. If no buildings are under construction workers assigned to base building would ether be reassigned to the workshop or work in the workshop till another building is being built( might need some to remind the player that some workers will stop and work on the buildings. Aircraft repair would again not require a workshop and workers would have to be assigned and the repair rate could be like one worker repairs 1% per hour so with one worker the aircraft would repair at 2% each hour, etc. This would make workers a whole lot more useful especially in early game when you don't have much or anything for them to do.

Being able to start building buildings next to buildings under construction would be really helpful. You could increase the number of days it takes to build the building by how far away it is from a active building. This would really help in bases where the entrance gets dumped in a corner or when it is up against a square you can't build in and a wall.

[TallTroll]

I don't know if you've ever played UFO : Enemy Unknown (or X-COM: UFO Defense for merkins), but the whole point of UFO : AI is to recreate much of the feel of the timeless classic. A lot of the design decisions on how things work are explicitly replicating the mechanics of the older game, and a lot of how bases work is taken directly from the 1994 classic. Where departing from the earlier game would greatly enhance gameplay, such as two level bases and the proposed much expanded psionics system, the dev team have been ruthless in junking the old mechanics, but where change wouldn't add much, they have tried to stick as close as possible to the model.

Some of the decisions, such as base evacuations, are also a compromise between gameplay and realism, always the game designers bugbear

>> The base being empty during base attacks is just really weird especially in those bases that have like 60 personal.

True, but have you thought about how unwieldy a base defense with 60+ PHALANX actors would be? The soldier selection panel would extend down into the middle of the screen...

[MonkeyHead]

... and most importantly, how fucking long turns would be? The way the morale mechanic works would also be an issue, when 30 civvies get gunned down in one turn...

[Visitor]

Fluff-wise, all civilian personnel gets evacuated shortly before/during alien landing/drop, with all but up to 12 marines serving as additional escort. The first part is only slightly stretching the suspension of disbelief, the latter - quite more so. But that's how it was explained in the past.

[Eegxeta]

Yeah I didn't think of the turn time.

The raid shelter would still be a good idea. If a base is destroyed personal up to the capacity of the raid shelter wouldn't die. They wouldn't be useable until you connect the raid shelter with the entrance.

What did you guys think of the rest of the stuff? Merging the basic radar with the command center, using workers to repair aircraft and build building faster, and placing buildings next to buildings under construction.

I don't know if you've ever played UFO : Enemy Unknown (or X-COM: UFO Defense for merkins), but the whole point of UFO : AI is to recreate much of the feel of the timeless classic.

Yes I actually have, I never got very far because I was like ten at the time, but I have. It was a version for the pocket PC, I remember that the rifles the soldiers were using were described as laser guided sniper rifles (keep in mind this is what I remember) and they had a tendency to shoot the ground two squares in front of them, I had a soldier on a roof shoot through two floors and a wall to get a shot at an alien and I captured my first aliens because I had my soldier stand on the teleport pad on a three level UFO for several turns because I couldn't figure out how to use it and they passed out from the smoke. I got a copy for the computer but I was just not able to get into it. This of course that was after I discovered UFO:AI which was when it was in 2.3. I liked it because it felt like they just took X-com and made it better and easier to play. I've been around off and on for quite a while. My forum account will have been around for three years coming November. Ah 2.3 when doing auto on missions meant auto success. I started playing hardcore strategy with Total Annihilation when I was about eight and I had fun by making up what everything meant. Now I have about 13 years of bad habits coming back to bite me in Supreme Commander. I also own a real-time strategy game that has time travel in it, Achron.

[TheOnlySkyfire]

I thought myself a little about base design :-) (yes a little), and I have an idea to consistently explain, why not so much guys are on the map,  that no civilians running around in terror, and how the base layout can be small.

The PHALANX Bases should be (at least) two-layered. The upper layer with all the stuff, that MUST BE in contact with the surface, and a lower part, DEEP in the bedrock of the area.

The upper layer will consist of hangars, antennas, storage facilities for aircraft parts, fuel of the air craft and so on maybe a UFO-hangar directly at base (reducing the disassembly time and/or cost of an UFO), Ground2Air and Ground2Orbit base defense, automated ground defense and security facilities (including storage), where soldiers can be stationed just like on aircrafts.

The upper layer is connected with the second layer, that may consist actually of several of underground base buildings, by a long deep heavily armored elevator and of course a bunch of secret escape tunnels no one will ever find - a little bit like in stargate :-)

The underground layer consists of workshops, giant computers to analyse the radar sensor readings, internet,the hive mind link etc., the housing for all personal, laboratories and storage facilities, and in the very last corner  the command center and the reactor :-) - ah and also a very BIG bunker with rooms for the civil personnel. Maybe some well places blockade points where soldiers would have strong defense positions.

When a base is attacked, first everything happens in the upper layer, and the N soldiers (where N are all soldiers on duty at the upper layer) fight against the alien intruders. The aliens might raid or run amok a little and damage/destroy aircrafts and stuff, maybe destroy the defense. In the later game, if you can't take down an attacking UFO, maybe the aliens decide to bomb the whole side. Either way, if the aliens can manage to win the upper level, they will come down to the lower levels, where a second fight will start.

In meanwhile every civil personnel is evacuated through the tunnels or into the big bunker. The rest of the soldiers also had plenty of time to equip themselves and got in a decent defense position. parts of the most expensive equipment is sealed (so that the aliens might have to shoot several times at the doors to open them). If they really go for the lower level I'd expected the aliens to have several waves, coming in every 2 or 3 rounds, fighting their way from the central elevator in every direction.

For a good and hard fight, and for making an successful bombardment something you can go on with, the stuff in the upper level must be very ... cheap or easy to replace compared with the lower level stuff, and the civil personnel must be the crown jewels of the whole base. So that you really don't want the guys in the bunker to die - and you don't want the aliens to blast the reactor...(maybe the bunker and the reactor should be placed on opposite sides, and elevator right in the middle, when a new base is founded).

So that are my little thoughts about base design.

[Eegxeta]

We covered why there is no base personal around during a attack they leave before it starts.

[TheOnlySkyfire]

We covered why there is no base personal around during a attack they leave before it starts.

Well I would prefer it not to leave, so that you have to defend your civil personnel to the last man.

[TallTroll]

>> Well I would prefer it not to leave, so that you have to defend your civil personnel to the last man.

Gameplay vs realism. Having lots of civves to defend is more realistic, but would make defending big bases unworkable, for several reasons

[Eegxeta]

This is one of those things that can sound good on paper, but just doesn't work in practice.

[TheOnlySkyfire]

Erm...

maybe I don't make myself clear. There is a "bunker building" in my concept, not a bunch of civilian guys running around. The bunker building is something, that the evil aliens can reach, attack with heavy weapons, and if it is down, all civilians will die. Alternatively the percentage of damage on the bunker building determines the percentage of died civilians.

So you may have several strategical and tactical decisions to make, that have to be reconsidered over time:

- Anti-UFO defense vs. man on duty at the upper "hanger" level on the limited resource "building space"
- Upper soldier defense vs. lower soldier defense (vs. number of civil personnel) on the limited resource "number of personnel"
- Civil personnel vs. station (if the reactor blows up the bunker will stand) at the lower level fight
- on every fight in base: killing them fast vs. killing them with regrouped soldiers. Because the aliens raid the base.

[Eegxeta]

Think we are talking about two different things or ideas here. Or some other kind of misunderstanding.

[bishop]

We covered why there is no base personal around during a attack they leave before it starts.

Yeah, but somehow this doesn't fit: All civilians are evacuated, but your soldier are strolling around in the base, instead of defending the tactical positions? c'mon.

Also I understood the suggestion with civilians in the base, as that they will be still civilians, i.e. you can't control them, so no 60 persons to control.


My suggestion/scenario would be:
There is some preparation time; soldiers just managed to equip themselves and of the civ-personnel ~50% managed to evacuate, ~40% are on their way to the bunker and ~10% are still at their workplace (those are the guys who also ignore the fire-alarm...)

[TheOnlySkyfire]

Think we are talking about two different things or ideas here. Or some other kind of misunderstanding.

Yes we do. And this is indented, because I have an (alternative) idea for base design, that make more sense IMHO to the Phalanx organization, the nature of alien attack patterns, and by the way heals a bunch of logic bugs.

As bishop wrote, IF the attack is an surprise (the soldiers are not regrouped) than how could they manage to evacuate the civil personnel.

And if they have time to evacuate them (without the hive mind realize what they are, and get them shot from air) than why aren't the soldiers regrouped? Then you should be able to place them where ever you want at the base (maybe by "building" the span points).

On the other Hand, IF you know before hand that the guys come, why aren't you have the base full of countermeasures? Why are all doors open within the base? Aren't there have fire control doors in the base? Why is no guy in the camera room at the beginning?

And of course, you can't loose the civil personnel, can you? If it is evacuated... than they are save, right? And why the hell, do the aliens not bombard the whole place, or flooding it with hot plasma - and even if we don't understand them... why does not AT LEAST Phalanx fear the might do or fear that they can't see them come, and planning basic base layout this way? :-)

The further advantages are:
Additional meaningful strategic decisions, risk to loose half of the base and soldiers, instead of all through if the ufo makes it to the base by bombardment, so even if you have best gear and highly trained soldiers (and good structured base) you HAVE TO fortify it, and not just let the attackers come, making it a decision to go for better aircrafts and base defense (maybe low range, high damage variants to really only defend the base).

[Wolls]

On the other Hand, IF you know before hand that the guys come, why aren't you have the base full of countermeasures? Why are all doors open within the base? Aren't there have fire control doors in the base? Why is no guy in the camera room at the beginning?

Okay, even today every missile launch leaves a signature.  Intercontinental missile means larger sig.  the USA has 99 problems but finding your launch window aint one.  So the direct attack is the quix-est but yeah, they do see it coming but

the level of preparedness u are hinting at? in a research only Base?? yeah dam egg heads and their scrambled confusion...

maybe I don't make myself clear. There is a "bunker building" in my concept, not a bunch of civilian guys running around. The bunker building is something, that the evil aliens can reach, attack with heavy weapons, and if it is down, all civilians will die. Alternatively the percentage of damage on the bunker building determines the percentage of died civilians.
So you may have several strategical and tactical decisions to make, that have to be reconsidered over time:
- Anti-UFO defense vs. man on duty at the upper "hanger" level on the limited resource "building space"
- Upper soldier defense vs. lower soldier defense (vs. number of civil personnel) on the limited resource "number of personnel"
- Civil personnel vs. station (if the reactor blows up the bunker will stand) at the lower level fight
- on every fight in base: killing them fast vs. killing them with regrouped soldiers. Because the aliens raid the base

I straight up wish they just bombed bases, never-mind targeted em but it would be so sweet if the aliens localized / specialized / target just to win / and mostly troll'd ya.