Design: Storyline

[Bandobras]

I do not object to half-robotic aliens. But I do object to half-robotic, half-ghostly aliens with horns that spew antigravity-propelled steel balls filled with plasma with one hand and draw pentagrams with the other, reaching into your concience with their demonic power. I do object to spaghetti pulp-fiction.

[BTAxis]

Hah. Yeah. That's Warhammer stuff, I don't think that would fit in. Simple psionic panic attacks are quite a step removed from that, though. As for mind control, well, some people love it, some hate it. Fact is that it's traditional for a UFO game.

[Bandobras]

Hah. Yeah. That's Warhammer stuff, I don't think that would fit in.

I'm glad we agree.

Simple psionic panic attacks are quite a step removed from that, though.

Well, panic attacks are easy to fit into science-fiction without any meta-physical connotations. For example some infrasounds are known to cause panic. Not mention just battle situations with overwhelming odds.

As for mind control, well, some people love it, some hate it.

I do like it, though not as much of it as in X-com 1. I think mind-controll is a nice tactical suprise and a nice spice to the game-play. Just don't put too much spice in.

This is not my problem. My problem is that ESP, PSI, etc. are not scientific in any way, so they do not fit in pure science-fiction. I'm not an expert, but I've heard often psychic experiments fail and the ESP people say this is because the guiding spirits that give them their powers feel offended by being experimented upon, or just the spirits are not in a mood. etc. So this is meta-psysical matter that would fit in a horror, but is risky in science-fiction. Indeed many setups with PSI end up in theories about an almost-omipresent alien collective mind and the joys of joining it even for a while, or locate their endgame in Hell, when the aliens are discovered to come from. I don't despise horrors or meta-physical musings, but they are just a totally different kind of stories, and very easy to turn into cheese, IMHO.

I mean, do you feel confident in your knowledge of psychological theories of free will, in anthropology, in demonology, in theology of Egyptian myths, etc. as much as you are confident in your knowledge of today's basic technology? I'm not, because I know how a rifle works and I can extrapolate that to a tachyon rifle in a simplistic but not pathetic way, while I don't know how ESP works and I can only tell total cheese about how being a part of a collective mind feels.

On the other hand limited mind-control can be satisfactorily explained by extrapolating today's science. For example mind-control over alien or human drones, by intercepting their communication channels. Or Altugi's idea about swarms of nano-robots that enter your body, sit in your nerves and steer you hands and legs witout caring for your will, soul and concience. Surely other explanations can be found...

[BTAxis]

Hmm, so you think it can't be science-fiction if it doesn't involve highly advanced technology. Well, fair enough, I am inclined to agree. But I think you should know that not everyone thinks of it that way. In fact, there are books set in worlds LESS technologically advanced than ours that are considered science-fiction.

Not telling you you're wrong, you understand, just telling you to keep an open mind.

[PsyWarrior]

While Science Fiction often rides upon advanced technology, that's not all there is to it...

There are many who theorise that the human mind is much more powerful that we know about, and that we only use a tiny amount of our brain / potential.

That's nothing to do with spirits or collective alien minds... It's biological or psychological, it's science... isn't it?

-PsyW

[BTAxis]

Precisely. If you've read some of Ursula LeGuinn's work, then you know what I mean. It's definitely science-fiction, but there's hardly any technology involved in some of her books.

[Bandobras]

While Science Fiction often rides upon advanced technology, that's not all there is to it...

Surely. The problem is, the other sciences, those that do not contribute directly to technology, usually only help us understand our world better and do current things better (like, e.g. better psychoterapy, better plant cultivation, better religious service) and not do new things. And the fun of science-fiction worlds is about the new things and how people react to those, I think.

There are many who theorise that the human mind is much more powerful that we know about, and that we only use a tiny amount of our brain / potential.

This is old talk with, arguably, nothing except books and movies coming from it.

That's nothing to do with spirits or collective alien minds... It's biological or psychological, it's science... isn't it?

Yes, it's discovering about our world. But if you try to force such non-technological thinking about world to produce a techonology-like, visible, new way of doing things, you end up in pseudo-science. There is actually a huge market of those widgets that claim to activate the dormant 90% of your mind. Go ask biologist or psychologist about them... But they will often not be able to prove that the widgets do not work, just as they would not be able to prove that a truly working widget is not a fraud --- this is a part of the non-technological, non-mathematical nature of those sciences. So, actually, a theologian or salesman may have a more accurate theory of these widgets and their apparent success, but again the account would not be provable and would not allow you to construct a woriking widget yourself nor to prove that such construction is impossible.

If you've read some of Ursula LeGuinn's work, then you know what I mean. It's definitely science-fiction

Isn't it, mostly, fantasy?

Are we making a fantasy game? I do not object, but if the game starts with movie of a frowned UN councilmen looking out of the window of his office at the fall of a nicely animated alien spaceship, and then you find yourself bashing at such spaceships with swords and conjuring hordes of bears to beat at the aliens, the game will turn into yet another genre --- farce.

I claim that PSI, just as X-rays coming from a hero's eyes, just as forcefields generated by a hero's willpower, are based on wrong understanding of science (as is pseudo-science). In this, they are worse than magic swords and summoned bears, that are based on good understanding of fairy-tales and, more generally, myths.

Putting magic swords together with laser weapons may be good joke, but putting PSI and laser beams from a superhuman eyes with anything else is cheese. We don't see it, because our childhood fairy-tailes were full of it, and because current social perception of science is full of pseudo-science.

Sorry for the rant.

[BTAxis]

You have a way of overreacting, yes. You say putting magic swords together with lasers is a joke, but I would like to draw your attention to a popular science fiction title that does just that. This title is popular around the world, and it cannot possible be called fantasy in favor of science-fiction. It has a sort of magic, a sort of PSI, it has sword fights, and it has lasers. Its name? Star Wars.

And it's not just in Star Wars. Star Trek has its Betazoids. Babylon 5 has its telepaths. Even in the Foundation series, written by Isaac Asimov who, by the way was a scientist, telepathy, or PSI if you will, plays an important role.

I understand that you feel all science-fiction must be able to be scientifically sound, but I think that's taking too narrow a view. There's another part to the word, namely "fiction". You should allow some room for things that can't be explained or that are plain impossible. It doesn't matter how realistic it is, as long as it's believeable. I made a post going deeper into that particular statement elsewhere, but I can't be buggered to fish it up.

On that note, I just want to clarify that the Warhammer comment I made does not mean I think Warhammer 40K is stupid because it has magic (which clearly isn't scientific). I consider it a solid universe that is quite believeable. It's also doubtlessly science fiction.

[Bandobras]

Star Wars

Shame on me, but I like Star Wars (I mean, the first two episodes). For my defence I have to say, I was very young when I saw it first time, and I had no way of seeing good science-fiction, fantasy or mixed movies at that time (not that there are many, anyway).

And it's not just in Star Wars. Star Trek has its Betazoids. Babylon 5 has its telepaths.

Do you have any examples of good movies or books with such mish-mash? BTW, Star Trek, and I guess Babylon 5 too, qualify for the "joke" category. Do we want to make a joke game? I don't object, I just insist that we know what we are doing.

Even in the Foundation series, written by Isaac Asimov who, by the way was a scientist, telepathy, or PSI if you will, plays an important role.

Tha was only one book of the series, the one about the Mule, wasn't it? And, paradoxically, it was scientifically sound, becaue the PSI was a one-time phenomenon. Pseudo-science begins only when you make a technology from a non-technological domain, like religion, parapsychology, normal psychology, mythical topics, etc.

For example Bible is not pseudo-scientifical, because in it the miracles are not explained scientificaly nor employed technologically. On the other hand Star Wars is not cheese because it has Jedi, it becomes pseudo-scientifical only when the Jedi can be reliably trained and reliably bred/found/explained/whatever it was, and becomes total cheese when the Force is explained with some microscopic-mumbo-jumbo in a later episode (I laughed so hard, that I didn't quite get it; but I guess I actually didn't want to remember it).

[Bandobras]

Sorry again for the rants. As I've said before I can live with PSI, I just wanted to point out some dangers of PSI, the effects of which I will most probably point out in the future. So that nobody can say: "Why didn't you tell us earlier?".

Now back to the topic --- what about our Storyline? We have several versions of the "reason for invation" block. Which one do we choose? How do we choose? As I've said before, I'm fine with most of them, but I'd neither want to choose one randomly, nor to spend another year deliberating...

[BTAxis]

Do you have any examples of good movies or books with such mish-mash? BTW, Star Trek, and I guess Babylon 5 too, qualify for the "joke" category. Do we want to make a joke game? I don't object, I just insist that we know what we are doing.

Well, since you put it that way... Yes. YOU obviously consider the titles I mentioned jokes (and you are welcome to), but you are a member of a minority. So yes, I'd rather have a game that is fun and that people will enjoy than one that meets your particular standards. If the two can be combined, so much the better, but the former has priority as far as I'm concerned.

Even in the Foundation series, written by Isaac Asimov who, by the way was a scientist, telepathy, or PSI if you will, plays an important role.

Tha was only one book of the series, the one about the Mule, wasn't it? And, paradoxically, it was scientifically sound, becaue the PSI was a one-time phenomenon. Pseudo-science begins only when you make a technology from a non-technological domain, like religion, parapsychology, normal psychology, mythical topics, etc.

Four or five books, in fact. Asimov connected the Foundation series to the Elijah Bailey series through the development of telepathy. The last three Foundation books, as well as the last few R. Daneel books all deal with telepathy.

Admittedly, the last few Foundation books are nowhere near as good as the first three, but that's not the point. The point is that PSI/telepathy/etc. is commonplace in science-fiction, and it should not be shunned because it's not scientific.

For example Bible is not pseudo-scientifical, because in it the miracles are not explained scientificaly nor employed technologically. On the other hand Star Wars is not cheese because it has Jedi, it becomes pseudo-scientifical only when the Jedi can be reliably trained and reliably bred/found/explained/whatever it was, and becomes total cheese when the Force is explained with some microscopic-mumbo-jumbo in a later episode (I laughed so hard, that I didn't quite get it; but I guess I actually didn't want to remember it).

Yeah, I'm not saying you have to like it. I'm just saying there are a lot of people who don't share your views, and you should keep them in mind.

[BTAxis]

Now back to the topic --- what about our Storyline? We have several versions of the "reason for invation" block. Which one do we choose? How do we choose? As I've said before, I'm fine with most of them, but I'd neither want to choose one randomly, nor to spend another year deliberating...

This is exactly the question I've been asking myself for a while. There is no decision-making process to speak of. Hoehrer has more or less put me in charge of writing the "official" story on the wiki, but I haven't done so yet because, yes, the storyline to be used hasn't been decided yet. So, what do you suggest we do? I was hoping to create a number of alternatives in the storyline variant threads, work out those variants in general lines, then have a poll or something to decide which one to use. But if you have a better idea, I'll be glad to hear it.

[Bandobras]

So yes, I'd rather have a game that is fun and that people will enjoy than one that meets your particular standards. If the two can be combined, so much the better, but the former has priority as far as I'm concerned.

Me too. But we have a real chance of combining the two, because we are not under pressure of commercialization, so we can actually choose for what kind of people we make the game for (e.g. for people like us). We do not have to put lots of goo because, say, male teenagers are known to be fascinated by goo between 12 and 16. We also don't have to put the Force, because Star Wars has it, not PSI, because it was hip when we were kids and is now a widely accepted, though laughed upon folklore (OK, so laughed upon by minority, until no more money can be sucked from this theme, at which point it will be ridiculed for money in openly joke movies and then die).

As for Star Trek and joke movies, we are already ahead of Star Trek in that our aliens are not obviously humans with rubber implements on their heads. That may loose us some Star Trek fans, but I say: let's go ahead that way!

Four or five books, in fact. Asimov connected the Foundation series to the Elijah Bailey series through the development of telepathy.

Oh, what a pity. I guess I stopped at the right moment.

[BTAxis]

As for Star Trek and joke movies, we are already ahead of Star Trek in that our aliens are not obviously humans with rubber implements on their heads. That may loose us some Star Trek fans, but I say: let's go ahead that way!

Hah. Hell yeah.

[Bandobras]

Hoehrer has more or less put me in charge of writing the "official" story on the wiki [...]
There is no decision-making process to speak of. [...]

Well, so you are the decision-making process on two legs. (And you are the one to blame, if anything goes wrong --- what a relief. )

So, what do you suggest we do?

I'd suggest you be active. I may be ranting and overeacting, but I spare leaders --- they have already a pityful life. I hope others will also be thankful for whatever you do and enocurage others to do (as opposed to nobody doing nothing).

I was hoping to create a number of alternatives in the storyline variant threads, work out those variants in general lines, then have a poll or something to decide which one to use.

Good idea, but I'm afraid our forum is too small for a meaningful poll (e.g. the percentage of random votes may get too high). OTOH brainstorming polls (not decision-making) could be a lot of fun.

But if you have a better idea, I'll be glad to hear it.

Perhaps start with the "reason for invasion"? We already have lots of talk about that. Perhaps make a thread "Give your three best reason for invasion variants here" where everyone (including you!) describes his three most favourite variants (one sentence each) and rates them on 1--10 scale. Make sure to force all project members to participate (they will hide behind coding duties and such, but insist). ALso PM previously active people (e.g. Altugi) to participate. Perhaps also announce this somewhere (homepage News at the least).

Then, after say a month, decide on the variant, and describe the reasons for your decision in the thread. I would propose that the basis of your decision is "how to make the game as most fun as possible for all of us that took the effort to seriously participate in the thread". That's it.