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Author Topic: 2.5 sucks completely  (Read 220926 times)

Offline kurja

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Re: 2.5 sucks completely
« Reply #135 on: May 31, 2013, 10:25:00 pm »
Know what else is effective early? Assault rifles just with better range. And no I don't use flamers. It's probably going to be changed to "Close" but currently it's heavy in my version, I think. Maybe. Anyway, range is the game since aliens rarely get close and when they do they tend to kill the person they got near. And unless the lab boys figure out how to make anti-matter rockets for ground troops I'm probably not going to use it.

At shorter range smg's are way better, just sayin'. Faster reaction shots and they also weigh less which can make a big difference. Don't get me wrong I love to use those ar's myself but they're not all there is. In some maps you don't have the range to your advantage and in those spots flamers take out even the heaviest targets when ordinary pre alien incursion tech only-bullets basically just bounce off.

Blaster is short range. Explain why the aliens have great aim with them across the map. Moving on from that, Shotguns need 2-3 shots at close range to down an alien. Grenade launchers were great at indirect fire in 2.4 and still are in 2.5 if they could kill anything. Also, lower RPG accuracy but larger splash radius? That could blow up in a commander's face(HA).

My biggest problem is that I don't see any reason to use weapons besides Assault and Sniper. 2.4 I ran about 3 Assaults, 2 Snipers, and the others tended to shift around depending on the map. I liked using a Rocket to take out the biggest problem I saw on the field. Now it's all Assault and Snipers. Maybe it's just my line of thinking or playing, but Close is too risky and Explosive too much work. Work meaning not being able to kill, hit, or carry anything.

Also about the weapons, which skill do they use? When looking at the Shotgun it says Close, but when looking in the UFOpedia, the 'requirements' say heavy. And a few weapons seem to keep this odd dual skill thing.


idk about the blasters, still sounds like rng to me, I never really liked to use those those myself anyway.

Even though the gl has lost it's 3 round burst mode I still use it a lot, it has great range, and right in early game you can cut off aliens with incendiary rounds, and ofc you can lay indirect fire which is always nice. Carry a sniper rifle and anything else, like, ammo for the rifle and you're already over the lightest encumbrance threshold, capable of one aimed shot per round, with a gl you can shoot twice or shoot and move. Having said all this, I guess it comes down to your personal preference, I use a lot of assault rifles and snipers myself too though.

So far I've heard only rumors, nothing direct from Cdr. Cavarre, about advancing our shotgunners' damage output. As for advanced launcher grenades, antimatter rockets and some other things... look, I'm trying really hard not to post spoilers ;)

afaik nothing actually uses the heavy skill anymore.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2013, 10:30:29 pm by kurja »

Offline Merlin

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Re: 2.5 sucks completely
« Reply #136 on: June 01, 2013, 03:58:50 am »
At shorter range smg's are way better, just sayin'. Faster reaction shots and they also weigh less which can make a big difference. Don't get me wrong I love to use those ar's myself but they're not all there is. In some maps you don't have the range to your advantage and in those spots flamers take out even the heaviest targets when ordinary pre alien incursion tech only-bullets basically just bounce off.
Doesn't matter when the hoverbots have enough TUs to move in shoot you three times for death. I like keeping my guys alive so I don't like getting close to aliens unless I know I can kill them on MY turn. Because reaction shots are still wonky. Put my guy on burst fire, he shoots (OMG) but fires one bullet before the alien turns and shoots him dead. When on burst fire. To me it's very unreliable so I use range and speed.

idk about the blasters, still sounds like rng to me, I never really liked to use those those myself anyway.
Biggest problem is that a close range weapon can be fired at distance with average results.

Even though the gl has lost it's 3 round burst mode I still use it a lot, it has great range, and right in early game you can cut off aliens with incendiary rounds, and ofc you can lay indirect fire which is always nice. Carry a sniper rifle and anything else, like, ammo for the rifle and you're already over the lightest encumbrance threshold, capable of one aimed shot per round, with a gl you can shoot twice or shoot and move. Having said all this, I guess it comes down to your personal preference, I use a lot of assault rifles and snipers myself too though.
It's insanely heavy limiting ammo and support items possibly even armor. Sure my sniper can only walk a bit and shoot but he has the advantage of being far away or putting down his target. It is preference but to me it's not just preference it's what I feel like I HAVE to use.

So far I've heard only rumors, nothing direct from Cdr. Cavarre, about advancing our shotgunners' damage output. As for advanced launcher grenades, antimatter rockets and some other things... look, I'm trying really hard not to post spoilers ;)
Which falls back into the research problems I'm having in the fact of no research. I just got armor, in June. JUNE! At this rate I'll have to raid an alien base with tier 2 armor and plasma weapons.

afaik nothing actually uses the heavy skill anymore.
Odd mine still lists the skill used on the Flamer and Machine Gun.

Again I'm not saying it's bad, just I liked 2.4 more at this rate.

Offline kurja

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Re: 2.5 sucks completely
« Reply #137 on: June 01, 2013, 07:35:52 am »
I like keeping my guys alive so I don't like getting close to aliens

My point was that in some maps you might not have the luxury of choosing at what distance the battle will be fought. Ofc there are ways to enforce a distance but that's tactics for you, you like long range so you go for that, but it's not always possible. How do you purge a landed ufo of aliens using only long range combat?

afaik hovering robotic aliens aren't early game opponents?

Odd mine still lists the skill used on the Flamer and Machine Gun.

Some texts still have "heavy" in them but game mechanics-wise nothing should actually use that skill anymore.

Again I'm not saying it's bad, just I liked 2.4 more at this rate.

okay. it's still "wip" though =)

Offline ShipIt

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Re: 2.5 sucks completely
« Reply #138 on: June 01, 2013, 08:50:39 am »
Also about the weapons, which skill do they use? When looking at the Shotgun it says Close, but when looking in the UFOpedia, the 'requirements' say heavy. And a few weapons seem to keep this odd dual skill thing.

If you are playing a recent version and see stuff like that, please report it in our issue tracker. Remember, all this is still WIP.

Offline H-Hour

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Re: 2.5 sucks completely
« Reply #139 on: June 01, 2013, 12:02:26 pm »
Merlin, it looks like the shotgun (and probably other weapons) still show "heavy" dependencies in the ufopaedia, but this is inaccurate. The skill that the game uses will always be the one that appears when you're looking at the weapon/ammo in the equipment menu. I've made a note to remove these ufopaedia errors when I remove the heavy skill from the UI. Please let us know if you find any other places that heavy still appears.

Regarding shotguns (I include the plasma blaster in this category). It sounds to me like you haven't quite mastered reaction fire and, for that reason, have focused your tactics on long-range encounters, using assault rifles when you have to close range. This is not a bad strategy and maintaining range is often smart when its possible. But on quite a few maps this is just not possible, and shotguns have a few advantages over assault rifles in close quarters match-ups. The attached image describes a situation where a shotgun is much better. Note: If you're taking 2-3 shots to down an alien with a shotgun, you must be using flechettes and only hitting with a few flechettes each shot. I'd recommend saboted slugs over flechette shells for killing power.

Regarding grenade launchers. I really don't know what to say on this but to respectfully disagree. These guys are the biggest killers for me at every stage of the game. Nothing can match their ability to kill at short, medium and medium-long range. Sure, I have to minimize extra equipment for low-strength rookies, but it's a small trade-off to make. The reason I only take two (8 man team) or 4 (12 man team) is because they are purely offensive.

Doesn't matter when the hoverbots have enough TUs to move in shoot you three times for death. I like keeping my guys alive so I don't like getting close to aliens unless I know I can kill them on MY turn. Because reaction shots are still wonky. Put my guy on burst fire, he shoots (OMG) but fires one bullet before the alien turns and shoots him dead. When on burst fire. To me it's very unreliable so I use range and speed.
There's no partial reaction fire (ie - shooting only one shot of a burst mode). It sounds like it was set to snap not burst. Easy mistake to make, even when you're sure you got it set up right. I know every time I thought RF "didn't work properly", when I made a thorough investigation, I found I had set up the wrong firemode, or had it turned off, or my soldier was wounded causing the firemode TU cost to be higher, or the alien moved out of view.

On a separate note: players have different styles and tactical preferences, and this is not a bad thing. I just wish people wouldn't jump to the conclusion that something is "useless" just because it doesn't fit their profile. I, for instance, made heavy use of a fast sniper, who racked up the highest kill count while being protected by smoke. But ShipIt hardly used snipers. Some people consider assault specialists the primary offensive units -- but for me they were more defensive generalists, exposing themselves in dangerous forward positions to protect other soldiers and using their RF to soften distant aliens during their turn. I see this difference as part of the benefit of having diverse weaponry.

Offline Visitor

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Re: 2.5 sucks completely
« Reply #140 on: June 01, 2013, 12:09:05 pm »
It sounds like it was set to snap not burst. Easy mistake to make, even when you're sure you got it set up right.
Just for the sake of having it confirmed and sure - isn't it possible to have 'partial' RF if amount of ammo/energy required for shots is lower than what would be used with full magazine/battery (correct me if I am wrong)? If so, that may give impression of not fully activated RF while in reality it's logical effect of shortage of whatever weapon shoots with.

Offline H-Hour

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Re: 2.5 sucks completely
« Reply #141 on: June 01, 2013, 03:11:28 pm »
Just for the sake of having it confirmed and sure - isn't it possible to have 'partial' RF if amount of ammo/energy required for shots is lower than what would be used with full magazine/battery (correct me if I am wrong)? If so, that may give impression of not fully activated RF while in reality it's logical effect of shortage of whatever weapon shoots with.
Hmm, that's a good point. I'm actually not sure what would happen. I believe during the player's turn you can't fire a burst shot if you don't have 3 ammo left. But if the RF was set to burst before the player ran so low on ammo, maybe it doesn't check. Would be interesting if get a chance to confirm this.

Offline homunculus

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Re: 2.5 sucks completely
« Reply #142 on: June 01, 2013, 10:59:12 pm »
I remember having fired bursts with less ammo than needed to fire all shots, and it just fires less shots.
Someone might confirm it again, if there need to be absolutely certain.

(excellent thread title, by the way, very relaxing ;D)

Offline UFOhunter

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Re: 2.5 sucks completely
« Reply #143 on: June 02, 2013, 12:13:53 pm »
I remember having fired bursts with less ammo than needed to fire all shots, and it just fires less shots.
Someone might confirm it again, if there need to be absolutely certain.

Same for me.

Offline Merlin

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Re: 2.5 sucks completely
« Reply #144 on: June 03, 2013, 09:47:29 am »
Regarding shotguns (I include the plasma blaster in this category). It sounds to me like you haven't quite mastered reaction fire and, for that reason, have focused your tactics on long-range encounters, using assault rifles when you have to close range. This is not a bad strategy and maintaining range is often smart when its possible. But on quite a few maps this is just not possible, and shotguns have a few advantages over assault rifles in close quarters match-ups. The attached image describes a situation where a shotgun is much better. Note: If you're taking 2-3 shots to down an alien with a shotgun, you must be using flechettes and only hitting with a few flechettes each shot. I'd recommend saboted slugs over flechette shells for killing power.

I haven't 'mastered' reaction fire because reaction fire is as fiddly as a fiddler on a roof of a fiddling school. Made of Fiddles. The image makes no sense to me. Why does it matter that the alien ended up using just 2 more TUs to move when, as long as he moves into the soldier's field of vision and range, he should be fired on? See this is why I don't reaction fire or when I do, it's "okay everyone take 2 steps. That's all the TUs we can spare because everyone is on reaction fire and it takes all TUs to do it. Alien's turn." Really Reaction fire has been a problem for me since I first started on this game. Also I just use whatever the shotguns I start with come with which tends to be saboted slugs. 2-3 Shots for the Tamen, Hoverbots is a deathwish and anything else it's throw the thing away.

Regarding grenade launchers. I really don't know what to say on this but to respectfully disagree. These guys are the biggest killers for me at every stage of the game. Nothing can match their ability to kill at short, medium and medium-long range. Sure, I have to minimize extra equipment for low-strength rookies, but it's a small trade-off to make. The reason I only take two (8 man team) or 4 (12 man team) is because they are purely offensive.

Maybe with plasma grenades they can kill but the normal shot doesn't seem to do much damage at all. Note that when I use it, I try to use it to yes shoot around corners and walls to get to targets. And unless you hit the target, the damage seems quite pathetic. If you and others can make it work, that's great for you guys. I don't see how but hey, this is a game that can be played a number of ways.

On a separate note: players have different styles and tactical preferences, and this is not a bad thing. I just wish people wouldn't jump to the conclusion that something is "useless" just because it doesn't fit their profile. I, for instance, made heavy use of a fast sniper, who racked up the highest kill count while being protected by smoke. But ShipIt hardly used snipers. Some people consider assault specialists the primary offensive units -- but for me they were more defensive generalists, exposing themselves in dangerous forward positions to protect other soldiers and using their RF to soften distant aliens during their turn. I see this difference as part of the benefit of having diverse weaponry.

I understand that it's personal style and preferences. There's no way to make a game like this where everyone does the same thing, and if they do you're doing it wrong. I just see no reason to use the half the weapons in the game as they put my soldiers at more risk then I want them to be in. Close is a death wish, Heavy will be gone/is gone, and Explosive is only useful for grenades on my Riflemen. That's how I see the game thanks to fiddly reaction fire from my side, insane TUs from the enemy, and changes that I see weaken a play style I had grown to like from 2.4. 

Again I'm not saying the game is bad, and understand that it's still WIP. But this version seems to take everything I learned and got into a habit of doing from 2.4, and flipped it around. I don't know what's what anymore.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2013, 09:53:57 am by Merlin »

Offline H-Hour

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Re: 2.5 sucks completely
« Reply #145 on: June 03, 2013, 10:22:13 am »
I haven't 'mastered' reaction fire because reaction fire is as fiddly as a fiddler on a roof of a fiddling school. Made of Fiddles. The image makes no sense to me. Why does it matter that the alien ended up using just 2 more TUs to move when, as long as he moves into the soldier's field of vision and range, he should be fired on?

Ahh, ok. You don't realize how reaction fire works. If your build is after May 7, you should have an entry in the ufopaedia, under Basic Concepts (Ground Combat), which explains reaction fire. It is not a free shot on the enemy as soon as they appear. It's a first-to-the-draw race using TUs. Here's the text we've added to the game that explains it.

Quote
Units can fire on enemy units when they wander into their field of view during the enemy's turn. Soldiers will execute a reaction shot when an enemy unit spends more Time Units (TU) in their field of view than the cost of their reaction fire.

This means that a unit which has been set to execute a reaction shot that costs 8 TU will take the shot after the enemy spends 9 or more TU within their field of view. But be careful -- aliens can take reaction shots just like PHALANX soldiers.

Soldiers firing weapons with low TU costs will execute more reaction shots -- and receive less reaction fire from the enemy -- than soldiers who fire weapons which cost more TUs.

Addenda

A soldier will not perform reaction fire unless they have saved enough Time Units in the last turn and reaction fire has been enabled in the soldier's control panel. Commanders can choose the firemode the soldier should use with reaction fire in the firemode selection window.

If an enemy unit wanders out of a unit's view -- even for a moment -- the reaction fire counter will be reset. A unit must spend enough TUs consecutively in view of a unit to receive reaction fire.

This is why, in the picture example I provided, the difference between an 8 TU and a 12 TU reaction firemode matters so much. Ideally, we'll some day have some in-battle feedback on RF that makes it clearer what is happening. But for now this is all we've got.

Offline kurja

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Re: 2.5 sucks completely
« Reply #146 on: June 03, 2013, 10:32:23 am »
How are you loading your soldiers? If you find yourself short of TU's have you tried going light to get those bonus time units? I usually have my "assault team" without armor and using light weapons, like shotguns, lasers or rifles, wielding forty-plus TU's they basically sprint from cover to cover spotting enemies for snipers and grenadiers to kill and when they don't have a shot I'll use smoke and shoot them close up in the back :) At the end of my turn I arrange them defensively for reaction fire. Reaction fire mechanics are now really simple actually, actions that take less TU's happen first and a target needs to be seen for as many TU's as a reaction shot needs. which is where those shotguns are handy.

You didn't comment on my question of purging ufo's or small buildings, what's your strategy for that if you don't carry any short range weapons?

Offline ovvldc

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Re: 2.5 sucks completely
« Reply #147 on: June 03, 2013, 06:30:52 pm »
Which reminds me, do the aliens still have God vision, as in that they know where XCOM crew are even if they cannot see them? That was a problem in 2.3 from a tactical perspective - you could never sneak up on an alien.

Offline H-Hour

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Re: 2.5 sucks completely
« Reply #148 on: June 03, 2013, 07:24:14 pm »
Which reminds me, do the aliens still have God vision, as in that they know where XCOM crew are even if they cannot see them? That was a problem in 2.3 from a tactical perspective - you could never sneak up on an alien.
Yes, there is not really any stealth in single player.

Offline DarkRain

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Re: 2.5 sucks completely
« Reply #149 on: June 03, 2013, 07:26:46 pm »
@Merlin: Which is your build's date? I have this feeling you are using an old one for some reason.

@ovvldc: Technically what they know is if they'll be closer (straight line distance) to one a enemy unit if they move to any given position and if they'll have LoS from there. That makes them both, basically impossible to sneak on, and completely unable to navigate a semi-complex map to save their lives.