2.5 sucks completely

[DarkRain]

The thing with reaction fire and hit chance is that the game will actually fire several mock shots and check the results for of enemy and a of friendly units hit, cancelling reaction if not enough of the former or too many of the later are hit (moral state determines how many are 'too many' here)

also here is the reaction fire code: https://github.com/ufoai/ufoai/blob/master/src/game/g_reaction.cpp

[jffdougan]

We're planning to add a section to the ufopaedia for basic game concepts like reaction fire, wounding, etc.

I'll one-up the "cool" that was posted a little while ago: If developer/coder types will put together a list of those things they wish to see in a "Basic Game Concepts" section, writing up those areas is one place where I could productively contribute.

[H-Hour]

I'll one-up the "cool" that was posted a little while ago: If developer/coder types will put together a list of those things they wish to see in a "Basic Game Concepts" section, writing up those areas is one place where I could productively contribute.

Code: [Select]

Basic Concepts (Campaign)
 Research
 Production
 UFO Interception
 UFO Disassembly
 Nation Happiness
 
Basic Concepts (Ground Combat)
 Time Units
 Reaction Fire
 Soldier Weight and Encumbrance
 Wounds and Healing
 Flashbangs and Field of View
Please note that we want these to be very simple, short, clear and straightforward. Consider this a how-to on the absolute basics, not a strategy guide. Please also realise that I or others will probably change and edit any text you contribute, but a head-start will still be appreciated.

If there are other concepts that need to be explained, suggest them, but don't feel bad if we reject. This is really just the basics, not a full manual.

[krilain]

Code: [Select]

Basic Concepts (Campaign)
 Research
 Production
 UFO Interception
 UFO Disassembly
 Nation Happiness
 
Basic Concepts (Ground Combat)
 Time Units
 Reaction Fire
 Soldier Weight and Encumbrance
 Wounds and Healing
 Flashbangs and Field of View

Just as a hot suggestion, if the text could come with some explicit and simple illustration, it would be ideal. I made some attempt for RF and TU, just for giving a try. It could not exactly fit, not only because it is draft, but above all because it is not simplified to the extrem.

[jffdougan]

Code: [Select]

Basic Concepts (Campaign)
 Research
 Production
 UFO Interception
 UFO Disassembly
 Nation Happiness
 
Basic Concepts (Ground Combat)
 Time Units
 Reaction Fire
 Soldier Weight and Encumbrance
 Wounds and Healing
 Flashbangs and Field of View
Please note that we want these to be very simple, short, clear and straightforward. Consider this a how-to on the absolute basics, not a strategy guide. Please also realise that I or others will probably change and edit any text you contribute, but a head-start will still be appreciated.

If there are other concepts that need to be explained, suggest them, but don't feel bad if we reject. This is really just the basics, not a full manual.

Check. I think I can tackle most of these.

Is it easier to make them new wiki pages, or to put them into the current online manual, or elsewise?

[H-Hour]

No, just share the text in the forum or via PM.

[solbu]

Someone did some tests recently and found RF would not activate under a certain accuracy % threshold (maybe 25%?). This may account for a lot of the perception that it "doesn't work", especially if people are routinely trying to RF at distance with single-shot firemodes. We're considering reducing or eliminating this threshold.

Since this is discussed, I thought I'd think out loud with an idea that crossed my mind when reading this post just now.
Is it possible to have this as an option, so those who like the reaction fire the way it is can still have the threshold?

I have no idea on how complicated or dificult it might be to create the option, just thought I'd share the idea.

[Telok]

Since this is discussed, I thought I'd think out loud with an idea that crossed my mind when reading this post just now.
Is it possible to have this as an option, so those who like the reaction fire the way it is can still have the threshold?

I have no idea on how complicated or dificult it might be to create the option, just thought I'd share the idea.

Having checked the RF code linked above I've found ambiguities. What I have found that isn't ambiguous is that the code simulates 100 mock shots for each RF. Apparently if any shot hits an enemy and fewer than 5 (or more, there's code for morale and possibly mind control in there) shots hit allies then the RF is a go.

This explains why full auto RF is more likely to happen than single shot RF and why you get more RF on clusters of close enemies than on single targets. The more ammo you send downrange the more likely you are to hit an enemy.

[Patupi]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who has had issues with RF. I admit I'm not sure whether it's better or worse since 2.4, since I didn't play that version through very far and the aliens didn't get beyond plasma pistols. At that level whether 2.4 or 2.5dev it seems still challenging at times, but not impossible. later game, as soon as the aliens start using plasma rifles, it becomes a nightmare. I've sent guys out to check to make sure the zone is clear around a cover spot, gone to cover, then had an alien move, what must have been twenty squares, walk right by about six guys, all on overwatch with a variety of weapons, walk by them, still in view (I spread the angles of my guys) turn and kill 1 to 2 of them with auto fire before anyone fights back.

It just seems rather extreme, plus whether using bullets or captured plasma weapons, the reptilian aliens (forget their name off hand; Sheeva?) seem a little over powered. They have tons of TUs, have enough armour/hps to withstand bullets or plasma damage from numerous hits (a little less from plasma, but not much), carry heavy weapons and are bright enough to flank and ambush. In reality I'm sure this is what anyone planning such invasions would go for, but in a game don't you want to balance things? Have some aliens with high move rates but limit either weapons load out or have them light on armour/hps? It just seems a heck of a leap from Tamans to these guys. That with the RF issues make some maps pure hell. Sometimes I can't get out of the Firebird and position for one or two turns before getting half my team wiped out.

[H-Hour]

I've sent guys out to check to make sure the zone is clear around a cover spot, gone to cover, then had an alien move, what must have been twenty squares, walk right by about six guys, all on overwatch with a variety of weapons, walk by them, still in view (I spread the angles of my guys) turn and kill 1 to 2 of them with auto fire before anyone fights back.

AFAIK, the visibility check occurs on a per-soldier basis -- this means if an alien walks out of view of a soldier at any point, the RF counter resets for that soldier. So even if the alien was in view of at least one of your soldiers at all times, he was likely dropping in and out of view of the different soldiers, which caused their RF counter to reset. The aliens actually seem pretty smart in using this against the player -- not sure if that's built in to the AI or just a by-product of some other calculations.

The Shevaar's drawbacks will become more apparent as you go further into the campaign. Some maps are pure hell, yes. We hope to address this better in the future. In the meantime, use a lot of smoke on those maps to stay safe(r).

[Patupi]

OK, in the game I'm on currently part of it was lack of reasonable weaponry. For some reason alien light armour just didn't appear for ages, thus no laser research beyond ship and base weapons. With laser rifles and their pulsed autofire on RF things are slightly better (Still haven't managed to get the cash together to make any nano-armor for the troops though!) but still aliens are walking right through any defensive line and wasting people left and right from point blank range, even when I have a choke point the enemy has to come through to make sure they are ALWAYS in sight of my guys continuously! The solar array for instance with it's main entrance.

With laser rifles I have had one or two instances out of several dozens where my guys manage to actually shoot the enemy on RF before he walks up to one square away and blast my guys. It just seems odd that the enemy tactic seems to be basically individual suicide mode, especially when they aren't present in overwhelming numbers (say, crashed fighter). Even odder that it works for them! I've still had half my squad wasted like this. Having to 'replay' missions continually to avoid this kind of thing defeats the object of not having a save game in the combat missions (which honestly I agree with, if the combat was a little better balanced).

One other thing that has bugged me through all versions of this game. No auto save on geoscape prior to a mission. Admittedly, in a finished game it's probably not a big thing, but right now with crashes (admitedly not as prevalent as it used to be) it's really annoying! I've only had one crash to desktop since using 2.5, but I've had quite a few missions where I almost gave up, constantly trying to 'replay' missions and wanted to go back and just ignore that crash completely, but I didn't think to save prior to the mission. Also still getting the odd 'crash' where the mission just ends with no mission report, just goes back to geoscape, firebird is mysteriously back at base and all troops have vanished from the game. I've had this a lot in all versions of the game and it's still happening (though not as much again on 2.5). So far it's happened on the military bunker and one other map (I forget which one at present). An auto save would really help with that!

[Patupi]

One other thing while I'm thinking of it. I'm not sure if this is an illusion or not but it seems as if the enemy knows precisely where my soldiers are all the time, whether they can see me or not. I had suspicions on that for a while, but it came to a head on a base defense mission. I had troops below ground and above ground on opposite sides of the map. My above ground troops rounded a corner and spotted a Sheevar on the other side, very close to my other group underground, facing those underground troops position, waiting. Since it hadn't spotted my above ground troops I went back around the corner into hiding and waited. Another spot view next turn showed him barely two squares from where he was, still facing my underground troops. Next turn (still spotting with above ground troops) I moved my underground troops forward, still out of sight but getting closer to the exit. The Sheevar immediately went round the corner towards my under ground troops and blasted them now they were in range.

Was it psychic detection? Was it hearing the underground troops? If the later how come my guys can't hear the enemy out of sight? Something is again a little imbalanced here. Whatever mechanism is being used seems too accurate, letting the enemy chose it's approach to avoid ambushes almost exclusively and place their own very effectively. That in addition to stronger troops (on average), more accurate weapons fire (hover nets seem to shoot my guys from across the map 1/3 of the time on average for example), and more TUS seems a little overpowering!

[H-Hour]

Patupi, it sounds to me like perhaps you're not using RF correctly, so I'll ask a couple basic questions which you probably already know about and do, but just to be sure:

1. Do you know that you need to reserve TUs for reaction fire? Your soldiers won't automatically RF during the alien's turn. They must have enough spare TUs for their selected RF firemode.

2. Are you turning RF on? There is a RF button and you must activate it or your soldiers will not RF.

3. Are you relying on higher TU firemodes in reaction fire? I typically rely on 8 TU firemodes for RF (AR/Laser snap shots, shotgun/plasma ball). Anything higher and the aliens can usually get off a shot without catching return fire.

... An auto save would really help with that!

I'm pretty sure an autosave is made. Maybe you have to use F9 to reload it? Not sure about that. I never used it, but many people do. Hopefully one of them will tell you the load procedure.

When you crash from battlescape back to geoscape, please attach your ufoconsole.log (where to find it) to a bug report on our issue tracker.

Was it psychic detection? Was it hearing the underground troops?

The AI always knows where you are. This is common in many games as it's very difficult to create a challenging AI if they don't know where to look. AI improvements are always welcome, but it's a bit of a specialised field and hard to attract talent.

[ShipIt]

The game auto-saves before each mission to 'slotquick.savx'. This is the same as saving by <F5> and can be loaded using <F9>.

[Patupi]

Thanks for the help on this H-Hour.

1&2) Yes, I am holding enough time so I can enable the 'engage RF' button. I generally don't use the button above; the 'Reserve TU' or whatever it says. As far as I can see you don't HAVE to use the 'Reserve TU' button to make RF work. With the engage RF button on it stops you from using what it needs for that particular mode (selected on the fire popup menu). I generally just keep the engage RF down when I'm holding position and disengage it when I'm trying to move to a new spot (with attempts at covering my people while their moving, but little luck with that yet).

3) Until recently I wasn't aware that rapid fire was better and RF worked better with shorter TU using weapon modes. So I now do know why laser's pulse mode works so well. Fairly short TUs and has 6 shots. I'm not sure what calculation it uses to compare what TU's your weapon mode uses and what TUs the enemy has left at any given moment, but I'm aware it multiplies it's checks based on how many shots the weapon mode uses.

One other thing. I've heard that certain skills of the soldier improves Reaction Fire. Is it an average of all of the improvements or is it a certain specific skill such as speed or mind? I'd more think it'd be specific to the weapon type, and maybe be an average of speed and weapon type (such as heavy, assault etc).

Another quick query. The game used to use the weapon skill 'Heavy weapon' on certain weaponry, but now these have specific other skills like 'explosive' or 'close'. What use is improving heavy weapons skill? Does it improve handling heavy weight weapons? I thought strength handled that? Also there seems to be a sharp division between normal encumberance and over encumbered. Going from max move 31 suddenly down to 19 when you pick up a grenade seems a tad extreme! Shouldn't it go down gradually?

(EDIT: Thanks for the info on autosaves Shipit! I hadn't checked the key commands in so long I'd forgotten (or never knew!) that there were short cut keys for quick save/load. I thought it was only on the save/load menu!)