2.5 sucks completely

[H-Hour]

I'm not sure what calculation it uses to compare what TU's your weapon mode uses and what TUs the enemy has left at any given moment, but I'm aware it multiplies it's checks based on how many shots the weapon mode uses.

The RF match-up is a straight TU-to-TU comparison. If a RF firemode costs X TU, the unit will RF against a target after they spend X+1 TU in visible range of the unit. This is why low TU firemodes are better for RF -- the target gets to spend less TUs before receiving reaction fire.

The idea that multi-shot firemodes (burst/auto) are "better" in RF is false, IMHO. The number of shots only effects how RF understands its chance to hit. If a unit has a low chance to hit, it may decline to RF. More shots means more chance to hit, and therefore less chance it will decline to RF, but in my experience this is only relevant if you regularly rely on RF over long distances.

Throughout much of the game, aliens are using primarily 8 TU firemodes, so effective defensive RF requires (IMHO) 8 TU firemodes as well (the alien spends 10 TU moving into view and firing). A couple extra shots in a burst firemode is not worth the extra 4 TU, as aliens can then enter view, fire and step back out of view before receiving fire. The 12 TU firemodes are only effective over medium-long ranges, when you're confident your soldier can take fire (unlikely to be hit) and you want to increase the chances your RF will hit its target.

One other thing. I've heard that certain skills of the soldier improves Reaction Fire.

No, there is no stat which effects RF.

Another quick query. The game used to use the weapon skill 'Heavy weapon' on certain weaponry

It will be removed before 2.5 ships. It's now useless.

[Patupi]

The RF match-up is a straight TU-to-TU comparison. If a RF firemode costs X TU, the unit will RF against a target after they spend X+1 TU in visible range of the unit. This is why low TU firemodes are better for RF -- the target gets to spend less TUs before receiving reaction fire.

Hmm, which is problematic. Often the enemy isn't in line of fire very long, favoring running round corners right up to you and firing repeatedly. To be able to actually damage him it needs to be both high damage AND short TU operation, which is rare. Wave damage on lasers (pistol especially) would likely fire then, but not be enough damage to actually stop anyone. Though with multiple guys all there to hit... maybe. I'll try using a combination of shotguns and laser pistols next time.

On a related subject, since long ago on a different game I gave up trying to use smoke grenades effectively and somehow never tried it in this one... I was in error! I just tried using them and definitely like them. Helps a lot in using mobile cover. Still aliens seem to plow into the smoke and open up at point blank range, but usually they don't seem to have much TU left to do much, for whatever reason. Odd since even without smoke they tend to walk straight up to you before firing *shrugs*

Out of interest H-Hour, do you happen to know if the computer DOES allow the aliens to know your precise position continually or is there some 'sense' of where humans are if not in view? Does it just remember last position and what seems to be their attacks are just coincidence? It seems a little much. I've had aliens wait and wait, but just as I move in range (despite being out of sight) they wizz round the corner and blast me.

[H-Hour]

Hmm, which is problematic. Often the enemy isn't in line of fire very long, favoring running round corners right up to you and firing repeatedly. To be able to actually damage him it needs to be both high damage AND short TU operation, which is rare. Wave damage on lasers (pistol especially) would likely fire then, but not be enough damage to actually stop anyone. Though with multiple guys all there to hit... maybe. I'll try using a combination of shotguns and laser pistols next time.

Definitely use multiple soldiers for effective RF. It's easy to miss and, as you said, most 8 TU firemodes are not enough to kill outright (shotgun is the star weapon for close-quarters defense). On corners, don't put soldiers should-to-shoulder, because the aliens are good at finding lines of fire to pick off a soldier on the edge without exposing themselves to the other soldiers. Instead position a standing soldier one grid behind a crouched soldier, who is in turn one grid back from the edge of the corner, so the alien must walk fully into view before firing on them.

On a related subject, since long ago on a different game I gave up trying to use smoke grenades effectively and somehow never tried it in this one... I was in error! I just tried using them and definitely like them. Helps a lot in using mobile cover. Still aliens seem to plow into the smoke and open up at point blank range, but usually they don't seem to have much TU left to do much, for whatever reason. Odd since even without smoke they tend to walk straight up to you before firing *shrugs*

Out of interest H-Hour, do you happen to know if the computer DOES allow the aliens to know your precise position continually...

The AI always knows where you are. This is common in many games as it's very difficult to create a challenging AI if they don't know where to look. AI improvements are always welcome, but it's a bit of a specialised field and hard to attract talent.

[Patupi]

Well, I tried multiple soldiers on low TU weapons, even going so far as to try pistols (haven't made enough laser pistols to use yet) but it was pretty hopeless. A couple of times the enemy does come up and get shot at, but mostly they come out of cover and pot shot someone (often kill shot as I still haven't got the money for advanced armor yet!), often two shots before anyone can return fire. With pistols, when they worked, I got six direct hits on a Sheevar and didn't really affect him. Hopefully laser pistols will be better for that, though the stated damage of 25 on the snapshot is not promising! I've had laser pulse strikes from the laser rifle hit multiple times before taking one down, so a shot with that much less damage is likely to barely scratch him!

On the AI front I sort of assumed it would be a combination of random, group exploration, combined with mission parameters (hunt civilians/soldiers if seen) and that they'd have an expanding locus of attention based on last known position. A 'watch and wait' mode once enemy position is known, but is not in sight right now, is reasonable (which I've seen) but as I said they seem to move on the attack whenever you get close, way before they should know you are in range! Right now I don't see a way for any ambush set up by the player to work at all reliably... if ever! The only way to win seems to be to advance rapidly from cover to cover, or to advance retreat, attempting to catch the enemy when they leave cover... problematic at best, and heavily dependent on the map.

[Patupi]

OK, still not going well on reaction fire, even with laser pistols, but using smoke grenades, hiding most of my people (with laser rifles or stun tasers) and then having a couple of laser pistol guys run out of cover and spot for those in cover works great. Still getting awkward bits at entrances to buildings, but other than that it seems to be a good tactic... with the aliens I've met so far at least. Nothing beyond Taaman, Sheevar, Bloodspiders and the hovernet

[GPS51]

Smoke grenades are the #1 used item in my games for a reason. Just lob 1 or 2 (depending on spread) to cover your group and then let the aliens charge you. You just have to make sure to get LOS every turn by moving at least 1 unit out of the smoke. No more dealing with strange RF, just efficient combat!

[Visitor]

Hello. After years following losing my account and two random failed attempts on the way with making another, I show up to share a few thoughts about 2.5 dev and the thing I also find not overly good about it - a good excuse for making an account again, at last, even if probably I will use it somewhat rarely.

I see the whole discussion went to the topic of tactics, but the problem I see in the game, a thing that irritates me currently, is not just the fact that aliens have overpowered RF (though it should be balanced) but how generally stats are set for them. In the first months of the game (in-game time, of course) when I see a skinny taman clad in it's armor but still walking casually through half of the map, shooting (with deadly accuracy) one of my marines with his bulky plasma blaster and still having enough AP in reserve for RF I can only call bullshit, especially since by comparison soldiers of 'competent' level in stats get half as much mobility with the weight of just standard issue outfit - assault rifle, spare magazine, grenade and armor.

I can understand that aliens have to have a bit above-average stats to make up for AI shortcomings (together with alien powers to detect every living creature on the map etc). I can also understand that there are ambitious players, veterans of many X-com games who want a constant challenge and threat but making every little alien ultra-mobile sniper stopping rockets with it's face on Normal difficulty I find to be a plain mistake and a waste of opportunity of making different enemy types/species different (since, especially late-game every one of them is comparatively resistant, quick, strong and heavily armed).

I'd suggest leaving hardcore aliens for hardcore difficulty and offer normal enemies for normal difficulty which, as far as I know, is suggested for regular player hoping for balanced play. Balancing alien stats and their progression thorough the game, setting some stat cap on them and so on will take care of both matrix-RF-reflexes of aliens and general combat silyness where, while I still in the end can win, I am forced to experience situations where in case of aliens, max range = optimal range and my sharpshooters barely equal medium-range accuracy of random alien weaklings with sidearms. It's not a challenge at that point, it's breaking the immersion for me.

That being said, I have to disagree with statement that 2.5 sucks. Right now, again - despite it being a dev version - I have quite some fun with it (alien commando at every difficulty and few maps glitched recently excluded) and I thank the devteam for their work.

A few other things I am lacking currently:
Progression is nice, seeing aliens deploy new ships and armaments is nice but it's sad some stuff disappears for the sake of scaling difficulty - in the late-game I'd like to see, even in token amount, aliens still taking a kerrblade or two for harvesting mission, packing a plasma grenade in addition to their rifle or sending occasional scout ship in geoscape - things that would improve immersion a bit as they realistically would maintain their usefulness thorough invasion campaign.

[Patupi]

I too do not think 2.5 sucks, exactly. I just get so frustrated with it I give up for a little while every now and then. Plus I don't think the aliens have TONS better RF than the human player. RF seems to suck all round, just a little more for the humans, though that may just be the accuracy of the aliens and the fact they are almost always seem to be set in a good position.

Yes, alien accuracy seems high. I've seen a hovernet from literally across the map sniper my guys 50% of the time which seems excessive when my laser rifles seem to have an accuracy of 8% at that range! And yes I was kneeling! OK, I know it might have been coincidence but it seems to happen way too often. True with smoke grenades a lot of these troubles do go away, but it seems a kludge fix to me, and not being able to set any defensive position is just wrong in my opinion. As far as I can tell if I set up a careful crossfire, use snap shot only on RF, have good armour (currently the first nano armour) I can get 1 out of 6 of the aliens that pop up. The others all seem to shoot me once or twice before I can get a shot in, they invariably hit where I miss occasionally even at short range (due to being forced into snap shot when they aren't) and even with my armour sometimes they one shot me. IRRITATING!

Still, at least I have found a way around that, even if it forces me on a constant staged offensive.

[korda]

I don't think that it's ok when game has content that requires so much in-depth knowledge about game mechanics, tactics etc. It's stupid. It just pisses off normal players. I really can't understand how you can give that advices here H-Hour, if they are required to play and succeed at normal difficulty why aren't they written in bold letters in-game? I would expect to see a discussion about advanced tactics for harder game modes here...

After reading through some threads I have feeling that this game is being changed for harder-better enthusiasts.

Btw, is 2.5 really so hard? I'm playing 2.4 on easy now, I wonder how strong punch in my face will 2.5 be for me...

[Denthar]

Btw, is 2.5 really so hard? I'm playing 2.4 on easy now, I wonder how strong punch in my face will 2.5 be for me...

If you don't use smoke and flashbangs, it's a bloody nightmare.

If you do, then it's fairly easy up until some of the later aliens appear with what's essentially a super shotgun.


I also want to say something about this post from H-Hour:

The AI always knows where you are. This is common in many games as it's very difficult to create a challenging AI if they don't know where to look. AI improvements are always welcome, but it's a bit of a specialised field and hard to attract talent.

Just because aliens always happen to know where you are, doesn't mean they have to behave like they've got a direct line of sight.

While I've never done AI in my life (if I had, I'd offer to help), I've got a pretty good notion that either state machines (and some other bits and bobs) or fuzzy logic could be very useful in giving the AI a bit more variety and kill off the homing notion.

[Visitor]

To be honest, I don't mind homing that much - and actually, in bigger maps there's still a lil glitch where aliens will stand guard in corners of it instead of closing in on Phalanx troopers.

I'd still claim that the problem lies in the stats of aliens that make all kinds of creatures annoying when they home - they seem as they get no weight penalties from stuff on top of great attributes and plain unfair amount of TU, forcing player to basically go through the whole game exploiting one or two tactics with little wiggling room and plenty of redundancy if one wants to avoid heavy losses - so, still beatable, just not fun.

[H-Hour]

You can check your theory by playing as the aliens in skirmish mode. You'll find that even the hovernet, which has way more speed than any other alien, only gets slightly better TU (less than 30% over average phalanx rookie). And as this chart shows, accuracy and weapon stats on average have only a marginal effect on actual accuracy. It's effective at the very upper ranges (which the phalanx soldiers can never reach), but because non-robotic alien weapon stats have such a wide spread, its not easy to predict where they will fall on this spectrum.

As an example, a hovernet will only have around 15% better accuracy than a phalanx recruit firing an assault rifle on snap shot.

[Visitor]

Compared teams in skirmish mode (thanks for suggestion!), my theory was confirmed - it may not be accuracy skill on it's own, but it shows that starting alien groups have very high skills in general - while Phalanx recruit starts with around-average weapon proficiencies - at best - and possibly is barely competent in one or two categories (usually mind and/or strength):

- average taman is between very good and outstanding in mind, with proficient accuracy in case of the whole team and between very good and outstanding proficiency in every weapon class - quite 'upper ranges' unreachable by Phalanx H-Hour mentioned - on top of average strength and often - competent speed, thus outclassing even experienced, decent human trooper in most stats, often by several degrees.

- all other alien races are comparable to that, with some of them having all three - accuracy, speed and weapon proficiencies high enough to explain going thorough long distances, then still being able to shoot and/or RF with high accuracy. Even if enemies like hoverbots don't have weapons in-built during single player campaign, all alien units - including tamans - have also enough strength to be armored and carry decent assault weaponry without being over-encumbered, while also requiring less items in general (hoverbots or bloodspiders cannot bleed out or panic and thus wouldn't need first aid kits even if AI would care about preserving troops and not have unlimited numbers of them).

Optimistically assuming that alien stats don't get higher than that thorough the campaign as per raising tenacity of invading force, basic invader mooks are more capable - AI aside - than the best and most experienced human infantry, and that not counting weaponry/armor which is understandably and logically superior, at least a first and for which - if I am not mistaken (do tell if it was only fluff /rumour/changed feature) - aliens get additional bonuses in comparison with Phalanx.

There are no weak aliens. Even basic 15% higher chance of scoring a hit (and it does seem higher than that - was weapon proficiency taken into account?), when considering damage dealt with alien weaponry coupled with regular psychological mechanisms making failure more impressionable than success - especially when using limited resources - explains why many people in this and Mary Sue Aliens thread seem to indicate it's nearly only the shortcomings of AI and exploitation of a few tactical maneouvers that allow the player to win.

Edit: Adding a link, cleaning up the text.

[H-Hour]

Visitor, please go back and read my post again. The point is that even though aliens have much higher stats, this does not have a strong influence on TU or accuracy, as the chart (which does account for accuracy and weapon stats) showed. To test this in Skirmish mode, you should play as both the aliens and phalanx, using the same weapons to compare compare accuracy at similar ranges.

[ManicMiner]

Hi

I started the Mary Sue thread and haven't posted much since so just to quickly summarize where we are from my POV - constructively!

Firstly I like the weight enhancements and the simplification of the weapons classes / skills (IMO "heavy" + "High Explosive" made better sense if merged). The AI and game rules are, IMO, overcomplicating things and this is where some of the issues crop up.

Perhaps the answer is to have a sanity check on how the gameplay can be made a bit more intuitive. A good start would be to ensure heavy/HE weapons need to be two-handed across the board. Anything designed to be held in one hand shouldn't be "heavy".

RF should be a dual concept thing: reacting to an unexpected enemy appearance, AND "lying in wait". At the moment it's all of the former, none of the latter.

I'd like to see the RF modes set to either. So, for example, sniper shots given an accuracy boost if the soldier is holding the weapon "2-handed" AND knelt/lying down at the end of the round if he/she is "lying in wait" rather than standard RF but there should be a time penalty for enabling that mode in addition to having enough movement points left over to pull off an aimed shot with an accuracy boost.

Standard RF should apply if an alien walks into view and shoots at your grunt who just happens to be holding a laser rifle in one hand so he/she can retaliate. Only snap shots or "spray shots" should be used unless the soldier is armed with a light one-handed weapon like a plasma pistol. No human or alien should be able to pull off a sniper shot or an aimed shot when shooting a heavy/2 handed weapon from the hip while standing up.

The aliens should be subjected to these exact same conditions.

Secondly the aliens should have one penalty than your grunts don't because your grunts should have the element of surprise and have a good idea where they'll be in relation to the dropship, whereas even if they are expecting organised resistance the aliens have other mission goals, like terrorizing citizens and rounding up cattle.

So if you've got an alien with a grenade in one hand and a heavy weapon in the other walking out of a building and seeing the dropship in Round One, it shouldn't be able to pull off a pinpoint-accurate aimed shot in the Round 2 RF unless it's dropped the item in the other hand, knelt down and preserved enough TUs to actually perform that shot after its round has ended.

Or something like that.