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Author Topic: Suspension of belief  (Read 23250 times)

Offline Timo

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Suspension of belief
« on: September 07, 2012, 12:59:03 pm »
Hello.

In all sci-fi there is a element of "suspension of disbelief", IE things that break the feeling, logical or item or something. Like watching Armageddon, pretty much everything was wrong in it.

So: Lets discuss about what breaks suspension of belief in UFO-AI. No long explanations, just list of things what makes things look "wrong" somehow. Devs: don't take this as blame, just what could be made better. Love the game.

I'll start:
- All beginning human techs are basically 1960-era techs. Some modernization of basic combat equipment is in order
- Aircraft designs, while nice, looks more like slow helicopter than fast jets.
- Aliens (at least in 2.4) seems to prefer killing civilians over your team.

Anything else?

Offline H-Hour

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Re: Suspension of belief
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2012, 01:39:43 pm »
I think you've got suspension of disbelief backwards. It's more about the tendency or willingness of a reader/viewer/user to believe the story in spite of the implausibility of the details. In fact, I just checked and that's almost exactly how wikipedia words it.

The problem with these discussions is that they hinge more on the (often incorrect) assumptions of the reader/viewer/user than they do on "reality". Take your comments, for example:

1. The assault rifle doesn't look anything like the M16 or the AK47, the two most prominent assault rifles in use in the 1960s. It actually bears greater similarities in appearance to the modern-era G36. Neither does the sniper rifle look like the M14 or Dragunov used at that time. It looks more like the Barrett M82 with a muzzle break, also in contemporary usage.

2. If you haven't noticed, Phalanx bases are underground. Aircraft must be capable of VTOL (vertical take off and landing).

3. Why do you assume aliens care more about Phalanx than killing civilians? You could call it unrealistic, but a sci-fi author could have just as easily intended it to be an insight into alien psychology and strategy.

You can pick any single element in the game (or any sci-fi work) and find a reason why it might not make sense. The same is true in the world we live in. Suspension of disbelief is about embracing the whole rather than picking on the details. If we have an engrossing game, we'll succeed in generating that.

But there will always be people who pick out one thing and decide that is the reason the game is unrealistic. Everyone finds something different for their brain to fixate on. Changing one thing or even a list of things won't fix the problem. It will just introduce new ones.

Offline Wiz33

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Re: Suspension of belief
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2012, 12:34:25 am »
  Don't get so defensive. I don't see the need to argue over a phrase. I get what the OP was talking about. As to the points he raised. here my response.

  1) Some of the weapon does look dated. maybe not the 60's but not what I would expect in 2084. Here's a couple that came to mind.

  The assault rifle would certainly look dated in 2084. I would at least expect something in line of the M8 family of weapons, especially one with the grenade launcher under the barrel.

  The Rocket Launcher does look WW2 vintage. Why do we still have a rocket launcher when man portable guided weapon is common place today. Give me a LAW for unguided rounds and a javelin for a guided round anytime.

  Also, since the alien got hover drones in 2.5. I hope we are getting some sort of portable AAW too.

  I also would think we would have some sort of basic direct energy weapon available by 2084.

  Other that that I'm pretty much OK with everything else.

  2) Aircraft. I have no problem with the aircraft except that I do think the Stiletto looks ugly but that's a personal opinion.

  3) Yes and no. I guess we could have alien with different objective in different missions. I have no problem with the aliens put more priority on civies on a terror mission but I would expect them to act different in other mission type.

  I also think that the the game is great but some minor tweak may make it better.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2012, 12:44:17 am by Wiz33 »

Offline Triaxx2

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Re: Suspension of belief
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2012, 03:41:05 am »
It's two different phrases actually. Suspension of Belief is an inability to believe something. Suspension of disbelief is the ability to accept as real something which isn't necessarily.

1) Universality of recognition. A rifle should look like a rifle. The rocket launcher looks like an RPG-7 because it's the most common looking rocket launcher on the planet. And if we started today destroying them all, we probably still wouldn't be done by 2084.

2) Because they're designed to use the best features of helicopters combined with the best features of airplanes. (Plus it's hard enough to actually model them in the first place so any similarity can be excused.)

3) Aliens probably can't tell one human from another, but if you were attacking a group of humans, wouldn't you pick off the unarmored, weak ones first? I would.

Offline Crystan

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Re: Suspension of belief
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2012, 12:17:46 pm »
It's two different phrases actually. Suspension of Belief is an inability to believe something. Suspension of disbelief is the ability to accept as real something which isn't necessarily.

1) .... The rocket launcher looks like an RPG-7....

I dont see any similarity between these tow things (excluding that both are rocket launchers):


Actually it looks more like a javelin or a stinger

    2) Aircraft. I have no problem with the aircraft except that I do think the Stiletto looks ugly but that's a personal opinion.
I think the Stiletto is the best int model that whe have atm:

Whats wrong with it? :>
« Last Edit: September 08, 2012, 12:24:24 pm by Crystan »

Offline jerzy_cz

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Re: Suspension of belief
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2012, 02:30:07 pm »
About aircraft models. Stiletto does not look like craft able to fly so fast. Something similar to Harrier would look correctly. The same goes with Heracles...

Offline H-Hour

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Re: Suspension of belief
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2012, 03:37:37 pm »
About aircraft models. Stiletto does not look like craft able to fly so fast. Something similar to Harrier would look correctly. The same goes with Heracles...

Stiletto is the slowest interceptor. The Heracles is a heavy-weight dropship. It's not meant to be very fast.

Offline ShipIt

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Re: Suspension of belief
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2012, 04:43:28 pm »

Offline Crystan

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Re: Suspension of belief
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2012, 07:24:54 pm »

Offline Wiz33

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Re: Suspension of belief
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2012, 08:52:56 pm »
I dont see any similarity between these tow things (excluding that both are rocket launchers):


Actually it looks more like a javelin or a stinger
I think the Stiletto is the best int model that whe have atm:

Whats wrong with it? :>

  Wrong launcher. this is what a Javeline looks like;

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/javelin.htm


Offline Wiz33

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Re: Suspension of belief
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2012, 08:57:50 pm »
It's two different phrases actually. Suspension of Belief is an inability to believe something. Suspension of disbelief is the ability to accept as real something which isn't necessarily.

1) Universality of recognition. A rifle should look like a rifle. The rocket launcher looks like an RPG-7 because it's the most common looking rocket launcher on the planet. And if we started today destroying them all, we probably still wouldn't be done by 2084.

2) Because they're designed to use the best features of helicopters combined with the best features of airplanes. (Plus it's hard enough to actually model them in the first place so any similarity can be excused.)

3) Aliens probably can't tell one human from another, but if you were attacking a group of humans, wouldn't you pick off the unarmored, weak ones first? I would.

  1)A rifle does not necessary looks like a rifle. The M8 family actually looks futuristic enough that they actually use something similar in Mass Effect.

  2)Take a look at the picture of the RPG7 above and tell me what part of it looks like the rocket launcher in game?

  3)Are you kidding me? Why would anyone ignore a armed target that can potentially kill you or (even if the alien does not have self preservation instinct) compromise your mission and go chase down an un-armed civie. Maybe except in the case of a terror mission.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2012, 09:02:56 pm by Wiz33 »

Offline Crystan

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Re: Suspension of belief
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2012, 09:08:20 pm »
  Wrong launcher. this is what a Javeline looks like;

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/javelin.htm
I didnt say it looks exactly like a Javeline. I wanted to point out that the UFO:AI Rocket Launcher looks more like a javeline or a stinger than RPG7.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2012, 09:19:53 pm by Crystan »

Offline Unisol

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Re: Suspension of belief
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2012, 10:15:42 pm »
<offtopic>
Uh, could you guys please stop arguing about alien AI? Everyone knows that, at current level, even a five-year-old would outsmart any taman. There is progress on this matter, but slow enough.
</offtopic>

Anyway, back to topic. The one thing that stands out for me is lack of any kind of human resistance except PHALANX. I mean, seriously? There are so many aliens up there we haven't yet invented the number for it, and 30-40 soldiers manage to hold them at bay?

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Re: Suspension of belief
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2012, 12:04:42 am »
Anyway, back to topic. The one thing that stands out for me is lack of any kind of human resistance except PHALANX. I mean, seriously? There are so many aliens up there we haven't yet invented the number for it, and 30-40 soldiers manage to hold them at bay?
Well, it is said that PHALANX is special force and is not the only organization fighting aliens, it is just the best in terms of quality. But for some reason (obvious complexity of this) no any activity of others sides is shown/simulated. Good example is X-COM:Apocalypse - others fight aliens too, especially police, but sure they can't be compared to X-COM  ;)

However it looks really strange, that there is no any country with pair of Saracens or Stilettos (fully human tech and not so expensive in game prices) to shoot down Scouts or Fighters at least sometimes.

Offline jerzy_cz

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Re: Suspension of belief
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2012, 01:04:38 pm »
Stiletto is the slowest interceptor. The Heracles is a heavy-weight dropship. It's not meant to be very fast.
Well, they are quite fast for their bulky appearence... They are flying with high subsonic speeds, (Stiletto's top speed is even above 1 Mach)  but their non-aerodynamical shape suggest otherwise - something closer to helicopters.