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Author Topic: 2.5 dev combat  (Read 17868 times)

Offline Anarch Cassius

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Re: 2.5 dev combat
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2012, 01:34:43 am »
Given the lethality of tactical combat in 2.5 auto-battle REALLY feels like a cheat. I still have yet to loose a solider in auto-battle and in tactical combat a lose of 1 or 2 is nearly guaranteed. I've lost over half the squad and considered it "acceptable loses"

Offline DarkRain

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Re: 2.5 dev combat
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2012, 02:38:56 am »
First, about rocket launchers. Is it possible for rocket to deal two separate hits? I mean, is it possible to make a HEAT rocket that would deal only low area damage (something like frag grenade) but would actually deal huge damage to target that was directly hit?
Not really two hits, but I think it might be possible, if you set both damage and spldmg for a fire mode it should have the effect that you describe, but note that both 'hits' will have the same damage type.

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So often, it happens to me that I position my troops near doors, and alien opens them...there is no space to flank him to avoid reaction fire, and some aliens already have needlers that are deadly even against nanocomposite armors. How do you deal with that?
Flashbang!

Offline Histidine

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Re: 2.5 dev combat
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2012, 08:54:32 am »
One issue I've noticed: Aimed fire on the assault weapons seems useless as anything other than "ammo saving" mode. As far as I can tell, the reasons are twofold:

1) The spread reduction relative to the other fire types is pretty low; you can pretty much always get more hits by firing more shots instead.

2) Aimed shots use the Sniper skill, not the Assault skill. Your soldiers are thus using the "wrong" skill, worsening the accuracy balance further.

H-Hour, could you take a look at this? Much obliged!

So often, it happens to me that I position my troops near doors, and alien opens them...there is no space to flank him to avoid reaction fire, and some aliens already have needlers that are deadly even against nanocomposite armors. How do you deal with that?
Plasma Blade. 6 TUs to insta-kill any enemy in the game - even armored Ortnoks!
Just don't spend them recklessly; each one costs 50 Alien Materials and 1500 worker-hours to replace.

Offline Sarin

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Re: 2.5 dev combat
« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2012, 10:54:56 am »
I don't have the blades yet...that's the problem. They've been researched just a while ago, but I don't have enough for deployment yet.

My current team setup: 2x plasma rifles (these are awesome in 2.5), 1x laser rifle, 1x heavy laser, 1x flamer, 1x GL with plasma grenades, 1x sniper rifle, 1x bolter. Secondary weapons are laser/plasma pistols depending on primary (lasers and sniper/bolter get plasma, rest laser), monomolecular knife in backpack, one plasma and some utility grenades for everyone. I am still experimenting with lasers and bolter, looks like bolter will have to go, the damage and accuracy increase over sniper is too low to make up for the 28 TU shots.

Oh, is there any feedback thread for weapon rebalances in 2.5?

Offline H-Hour

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Re: 2.5 dev combat
« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2012, 11:28:59 am »
1) The spread reduction relative to the other fire types is pretty low; you can pretty much always get more hits by firing more shots instead.

2) Aimed shots use the Sniper skill, not the Assault skill. Your soldiers are thus using the "wrong" skill, worsening the accuracy balance further.

Both intended.

@Sarin: You've got no quick weapons to handle close-quarters confrontations. Flamer may use close skill, but it's a TU hog. Try out the plasma blaster and you may see better results in reaction fire match-ups.

Offline Sarin

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Re: 2.5 dev combat
« Reply #20 on: November 06, 2012, 01:05:05 pm »
Interesting, never tried P. Blaster yet. It used to be useless, and aliens with plasma rifles were always a bigger threat to me.

Offline Triaxx2

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Re: 2.5 dev combat
« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2012, 01:31:16 am »
Warning: Plasma Blaster Ball Mode WILL kill the firer if you're too close. Unfortunately, if you're very far away, it won't hit anything.

Single shot mode works quite well though.

Finally ran into an alien with a Plasma Grenade.

Offline Sarin

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Re: 2.5 dev combat
« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2012, 02:37:56 am »
I did it eventually :D

Biggest threat in this map were two aliens armed with needlers. Eventually after several retries they spawned both at front door of the mansion, allowing my sniper to engage them over long range. He suffered a few glancing blows from needlers, but managed to hit both, eventually bleeding them to death. Needlers appear to be awesome assault weapons, but their effectivity drops quickly over distance, becoming something like death of thousand cuts.

Anyway...I don't have coilgun yet, and I am wondering if I should even research it. Problem is I do not know the TU cost of its aimed shot, if it is 28 like bolter, I'll skip them for now and focus on getting a new interceptors and dropships FINALLY into the air. About that, the material cost of the new aircraft is insanely disproportionate to gain of other materials. I have 5 AM storage buildings full, sold at least 20 alien propulsion units and some other stuff, and I still haven't collected enough alien materials for a single Stingray. Deploying Dragons/Starchasers is out of question since they're not that cheaper to make up for the difference in performance, I need something that can blow corrupters and harvesters out of the sky easily.

Offline NocLQ3V7

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Re: 2.5 dev combat
« Reply #23 on: November 08, 2012, 01:02:30 am »
I find assault rifle with full auto to be best with bloodspiders, actually I find myself preferring assault rifle over plasma rifle because with assault rifle enemy is still killable with full auto mode from typical range where I spot enemy, while with plasma rifle soldiers are not hitting the target in any other mode than snap shot it seems, surely if enemy is around 3-4 squares away, then plasma rifle is better, but 10 squares or more is range where I mostly need to shoot at.

Of course I must note that I play at very easy and find that level to match my skills (that are none) perfectly, enough challenge to keep troops alive but not frustrating murdering challenge like most games I find. I play to enjoy not to work :)

Also I have found out that sometimes those lizzard guys retreat and run around a building in attempt to flank me or surprise from behind, also they seem to attempt to get better shot by going to building from backdoor and then approach without being detected to closer to my troops. Maybe I just imagine things, but if it is so, then I find AI being much better than I have seen anywhere else.

Sometimes they get however bit foolish, having 8 guns pointed at one AI he still runs to open in attempt to get those civilians, or maybe he just was getting mad rage as I had bombarded him with grenades of all sorts from cover.

I guess moving and trying to maintain being covered despite enemy movements and still have several guns pointed with reflection fire on would be way to go, my attempts at that have been somewhat successful, 3 guys shooting 3 round burst with assault rifles as reflection fire has had good effect to lessen deaths among my troops.

I recently acquired lasers and things got quite bit easier with those, because of range and sheer power, now only two guys need to shoot lizard and it goes down.

However I think that with more difficult setting it will become quickly frustrating at least for me, surely it is superior enemy that one has to fight and at normal level I would think that it should be quite a struggle to fight off that enemy, playing very hard level probably should be nearly impossible with only perfect tactics leading victory. I'm too scared to even try of such.

Oh yes, plasma grenades seem to work quite nicely, but one needs to have them stop right next to enemy's feet to them to be working well.

I keep medikits at holster, along with grenades that I have also at belt, spare clip at belt, haven't really used Secondary weapons as rifles work so well even from close range. I try to get them come close instead of me going close also, that way they I get less reaction fire damage.

Flamethrower is nice inside of buildings, but outside I really can't find much use for it because of limited range, but it has great amount of power and it is really good against bloodspiders if used in reaction fire mode, candle light to blood spider and then it is easy to kill with lesser firepower.

Inside houses, I use group of three usually, keeping those corners covered and remembering that I can usually get glimpse what is around corner and come back without enemy firing at me, then throw grenades by bouncing them off from wall to make them go around the corner, evens things a bit when reaction fire ensues as I wait behind a corner for enemy to run into gunfire.

Probably I make lot of errors, so I like to play my first campaign at very easy and I must say that I enjoy a lot of it.

Offline Sarin

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Re: 2.5 dev combat
« Reply #24 on: November 08, 2012, 10:29:30 am »
I find assault rifle with full auto to be best with bloodspiders, actually I find myself preferring assault rifle over plasma rifle because with assault rifle enemy is still killable with full auto mode from typical range where I spot enemy, while with plasma rifle soldiers are not hitting the target in any other mode than snap shot it seems, surely if enemy is around 3-4 squares away, then plasma rifle is better, but 10 squares or more is range where I mostly need to shoot at.

Of course I must note that I play at very easy and find that level to match my skills (that are none) perfectly, enough challenge to keep troops alive but not frustrating murdering challenge like most games I find. I play to enjoy not to work :)

Also I have found out that sometimes those lizzard guys retreat and run around a building in attempt to flank me or surprise from behind, also they seem to attempt to get better shot by going to building from backdoor and then approach without being detected to closer to my troops. Maybe I just imagine things, but if it is so, then I find AI being much better than I have seen anywhere else.

Sometimes they get however bit foolish, having 8 guns pointed at one AI he still runs to open in attempt to get those civilians, or maybe he just was getting mad rage as I had bombarded him with grenades of all sorts from cover.

I guess moving and trying to maintain being covered despite enemy movements and still have several guns pointed with reflection fire on would be way to go, my attempts at that have been somewhat successful, 3 guys shooting 3 round burst with assault rifles as reflection fire has had good effect to lessen deaths among my troops.

I recently acquired lasers and things got quite bit easier with those, because of range and sheer power, now only two guys need to shoot lizard and it goes down.

However I think that with more difficult setting it will become quickly frustrating at least for me, surely it is superior enemy that one has to fight and at normal level I would think that it should be quite a struggle to fight off that enemy, playing very hard level probably should be nearly impossible with only perfect tactics leading victory. I'm too scared to even try of such.

Oh yes, plasma grenades seem to work quite nicely, but one needs to have them stop right next to enemy's feet to them to be working well.

I keep medikits at holster, along with grenades that I have also at belt, spare clip at belt, haven't really used Secondary weapons as rifles work so well even from close range. I try to get them come close instead of me going close also, that way they I get less reaction fire damage.

Flamethrower is nice inside of buildings, but outside I really can't find much use for it because of limited range, but it has great amount of power and it is really good against bloodspiders if used in reaction fire mode, candle light to blood spider and then it is easy to kill with lesser firepower.

Inside houses, I use group of three usually, keeping those corners covered and remembering that I can usually get glimpse what is around corner and come back without enemy firing at me, then throw grenades by bouncing them off from wall to make them go around the corner, evens things a bit when reaction fire ensues as I wait behind a corner for enemy to run into gunfire.

Probably I make lot of errors, so I like to play my first campaign at very easy and I must say that I enjoy a lot of it.

Plasma rifle is a lot dependent on soldier's skill. Picking the right squad is important, I always choose to recruit only troops with 30+ mind, 20+ speed, accuracy and one weapon skill. Filtering them every month is annoying, but it's important. In my game, december 2084, plasma rifle is main killing weapon. I have two in squad, and in the last mission they accounted for all 6 aliens from crashed fighter, 5 of them in first turn. I found full auto capable of reliably hitting alien without any cover at least once over half of small map.

I found secondary weapons to be quite useful on some troops. While guys with assault rifles won't use them much, maybe never, snipers, flamers, GL and RL troops will need them. Essentially everything with either slow action or limited range needs complementary secondary weapon.

Offline NocLQ3V7

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Re: 2.5 dev combat
« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2012, 02:33:27 pm »
Plasma rifle is a lot dependent on soldier's skill. Picking the right squad is important, I always choose to recruit only troops with 30+ mind, 20+ speed, accuracy and one weapon skill. Filtering them every month is annoying, but it's important. In my game, december 2084, plasma rifle is main killing weapon. I have two in squad, and in the last mission they accounted for all 6 aliens from crashed fighter, 5 of them in first turn. I found full auto capable of reliably hitting alien without any cover at least once over half of small map.

I found secondary weapons to be quite useful on some troops. While guys with assault rifles won't use them much, maybe never, snipers, flamers, GL and RL troops will need them. Essentially everything with either slow action or limited range needs complementary secondary weapon.

I think my game is at November 2084 currently, I use mainly laser rifles now.

Not sure how those weight penalties will change things, it might be that fast small weapons become more useful now, plasma rifle was using less TU's than assault rifle if I remember correctly. Electromagnetic gun is such that I can shoot it at the moment, have to wait a bit so that hard working guys get things balanced again, but certainly this new weight penalty system will change our tactics and even it will mean lot of changes how I play, they are probably eventually going to be again one great improvement.

Before you rush to update to have that feature, I suggest looking my post from bug reports section.



Offline Triaxx2

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Re: 2.5 dev combat
« Reply #26 on: November 09, 2012, 12:34:28 am »
I had a full squad load out of Plasma Pistols, had a base assault, and lost all the pistols.

In any case, the Pistol is perhaps the most awesome side arm of them. Yes, the Machine Pistol only takes 3 squares and the SMG holds 50 shots, but the Pistol is just plain awesome up close. At 4 TU a shot, you can out shoot anything and not trip reaction fire.

Plasma Pistol is more awesome because of the improved damage. Pity I lost those.

Offline Telok

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Re: 2.5 dev combat
« Reply #27 on: November 09, 2012, 02:31:19 pm »
Minor opinion here: Bleeding soldiers need to stabilise after the last alien is killed.

I just lost my best sniper because someone reaction killed the last alien when I'd only gotten one of the two wounds healed.

Offline NocLQ3V7

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Re: 2.5 dev combat
« Reply #28 on: November 10, 2012, 03:06:46 am »
Minor opinion here: Bleeding soldiers need to stabilise after the last alien is killed.

I just lost my best sniper because someone reaction killed the last alien when I'd only gotten one of the two wounds healed.

One solution would be to have battlescape end only after one is ready and hits the leave button, kind of how in JA2 it had, you collected stuff and patched up guys after the battle and then left the area.

Certainly it is good to have guy to bleed death if not patched and travelling for 10 hours, also brings up point of having enough medical supplies to be able to patch guys, maybe landing craft should house medikit or two though?

I think my soldiers need a gym, started new campaign and flamer guy can't carry more than flamer, armor and one grenade, probably need to swap for another soldier as that one is bit weak for heavy weapon guy, despite of his skills.

Can't now put medikit for every dude, also for grenade launcher guys have to do without 2nd gun to be able to carry spare grenades, so quite big change to tactics is in order, to work with weight penalties imo. Not sure if gradual penalty would be something to aim at some point, adding combat knife can now half the TU's.

Offline Telok

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Re: 2.5 dev combat
« Reply #29 on: November 10, 2012, 07:21:34 am »
Quote
Certainly it is good to have guy to bleed death if not patched and travelling for 10 hours, also brings up point of having enough medical supplies to be able to patch guys, maybe landing craft should house medikit or two though?

Remember that I'd already healed him once on that turn, and he was adjacent to two people with ready medkits. But he died after the reaction fire killed the last alien because only one of the two bleeding wounds was healed.