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Author Topic: On...a bunch of stuff  (Read 6316 times)

Offline TrashMan

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On...a bunch of stuff
« on: May 25, 2012, 11:08:26 am »
Wit hthe game beign turn-based and the Pc's having tons of processing power, I'm kinda dissapointed at how currently some things seem to have LESS depth than the old X-Com did.

ARMOR:
X-com had front, rear and side armor (and below). Armor could potentially block a shot COMPLETELY. 0 damage.
A lucky shot could have also punched trough.

Just fixed percentage damage reduction doesn't feel right. Armor SHOULD compeltely stop at least some shots.

So why not have the chance to compeltely absorb a shot be dependant on the damage reduction/resistance value?
So if hte armor has 50% damage resistance, it also has a 50% chance to comeptlely block a shot. And only if that fails, does the damage reduction kick into effect.

Or have the chance to fully block depend on the power of the attack (based on the average damage a weapon does). And some luck factor.

Which bring into another interesting idea - critical hits. Normally that would be wounds, no? But I'm talkign about a change to punch trough armor/hot a weak spot...or halve the damage resistance of the armor for that shot.

The additon that one can hear actors moving around (like in JA2) and they can hear you. The enemy can't pinpoint your loaction, nor can you theirs, but if either side run around and makes noise, they might get a good idea where you are.

Soldier stats.
Stamina? Endurance? Why don't we have those? Some weapon might be real handy with that in mind (a point blank shot with a shotgun may not breach your amor, but it will knock the air out of your lungs)

Special triats.. TeamPlayer/loaner. Night Ops. Ambidextrous.Stealthy. etc..



Weapon skills. They need to be re-vamped. Especially the heavy weapons. I'll add more on that later.

Offline H-Hour

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Re: On...a bunch of stuff
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2012, 11:24:55 am »
Just fixed percentage damage reduction doesn't feel right. Armor SHOULD compeltely stop at least some shots.

Armor resistance is not based on percentages and it can almost completely stop some shots (it will bring the damage down to 1 per hit).

Offline H-Hour

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Re: On...a bunch of stuff
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2012, 11:36:58 am »
On soldier stats: keep in mind we're still missing a lot of basic stuff for the battlescape, like managing soldier load through equipment weight and the strength ability, or a visibility system (which would be a prerequisite for any kind of stealth that you're talking about).

I'd love to see a time in the future when we can support all kinds of secondary effects and events in the battlescape -- suppresive fire, focused targeting for overwatch roles, sprinting, moving while holding the gun at firing position, interesting stealth benefits, etc. But there are a lot of things that need to be put in place first, and accomplishing features like this will probably require that a new framework is developed for handling and manipulating all sorts of events in the battlescape.

To give you a sense of the complexity of programming in the battlescape, keep in mind that we struggled through 2.3 and most of 2.4's development cycle (more than 2 years!) with a reaction fire system that was kind of broken and yet no one could figure out exactly how to fix it. In the end, aDuke had to basically rewrite it from scratch.

Offline kurja

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Re: On...a bunch of stuff
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2012, 12:03:34 pm »

ARMOR:
X-com had front, rear and side armor (and below). Armor could potentially block a shot COMPLETELY. 0 damage.
A lucky shot could have also punched trough.

Just fixed percentage damage reduction doesn't feel right. Armor SHOULD compeltely stop at least some shots.

in my opinion it's not really "wrong" to always get some damage, think of current real-world armour versus rifle fire - rather unlikely to catch a rifle shot in your vest or helmet and not be at all affected, it's perhaps more like a motorcyclist's crash padding - it won't make you invulnerable but rather reduces the severity of your injuries which is shown as hit point reduction in the game.

Which bring into another interesting idea - critical hits. Normally that would be wounds, no? But I'm talkign about a change to punch trough armor/hot a weak spot...or halve the damage resistance of the armor for that shot.

This would be realistic, and a good gameplay element - have a lucky shot pass the armour every now and then. In my opinion every shot should be potentially fatal, which definitely is not the case.

Soldier stats.
Stamina? Endurance? Why don't we have those? Some weapon might be real handy with that in mind (a point blank shot with a shotgun may not breach your amor, but it will knock the air out of your lungs)

Yes! How knocking someone unconscious works at the moment? I've never seen an actor fall unconscious, unless shot at with a stun weapon. Wounded actors should have a probability to fall unconscious.

Weapon skills. They need to be re-vamped. Especially the heavy weapons. I'll add more on that later.

+

Offline Kildor

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Re: On...a bunch of stuff
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2012, 12:58:05 pm »
It will be nice to have armour`s groups of each model. But this need some work in each side of project.

Offline TrashMan

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Re: On...a bunch of stuff
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2012, 11:57:25 am »
Yes, I know this is a lot of work. Which is why I have been attempting to drump up support for UFO:AI everywhere on the internets.


Quote
in my opinion it's not really "wrong" to always get some damage, think of current real-world armour versus rifle fire - rather unlikely to catch a rifle shot in your vest or helmet and not be at all affected, it's perhaps more like a motorcyclist's crash padding - it won't make you invulnerable but rather reduces the severity of your injuries which is shown as hit point reduction in the game.

And if you shoot at an APC wiht your machinegun the while day, you won't do siddly squat to it. Armor effectiveness certanly plays a role here. The modern combat armor can shrug off 9mm like it's not there. As long as you're shot in the armor it won't really hurt you..aside from the "oww..that stings you moron". Affected and really hurt are not the same thing you know.


Aside from that...the bit about heavy weapons. As it is they lack gravitas.
IMHO, heavy weapons should make your soldier count as encumbered (he's slower to move) .. unless you carry power armor. And maybe even then for some really heavy weapons (that atuo-fill the entire backpack slot, making it unusable).
Heavy weapons should have their own cary and fire animations..or two kinds. For normal heavy weapons (like a saw or M60) and for really heavy ones (think minigun).Of course, making all thos animations is the problem. I got blender and am looking into it ATM.*
And since we're at hte topic of animations... for proper ovewatch/supression more are needed.
- Regular running/walking
- walking with gun primed and pointed
- crouching movement
- crouching movement with gun primed and pointed
- stamding still/croushing still with gun raised
- heavy weapons (hip carried), etc...



*in the repository all armor models are wihout skeletons. Isn't there a original 3D Max/Blender scene, made prior to exploring with all the rigging in tact out there somewhere?


Why I say heavy weapons, I mean this:
http://www.metalcraftbyblair.com/bmz_cache/4/47f9295aa0659cf1fb376756a79dc9f5.image.350x262.jpg

read this:
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/10/foghorn/iowa-national-guard-unit-watches-predator-one-too-many-times-makes-jesse-venturas-ammo-backpack/


Say hello to my little friend!

Offline ShipIt

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Re: On...a bunch of stuff
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2012, 03:09:02 pm »
hello

Offline headdie

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Re: On...a bunch of stuff
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2012, 05:02:00 pm »
but if you get shot in body armour it might stop the bullet but much of the energy is still applied to the body leaving the shot person sore and bruised in the area under the impact site, possibly disorientated and or stunned as well.

case in point I remember when the British army rolled out the current generation of combat helmet they posted an article on facebook with a few stories about soldier who survived because of the new helmet, one of which basically went that he was shooting at the Taliban, the next thing he knew he was looking up at the sky because his head shot back with the momentum of an AK bullet that hit him in the front of the helmet and got lodged there, and while they said nothing about the after effects, you telling me that didn't give him at least whiplash to some degree. 

Remember there is more than penetrating injury/damage through armour to consider.  Going back to your APC example, hit it in the tracks a few times with the MG and i bet it wont do the tracks much good. Body armour is riddled with such weak points because they are needed to allow a human to move.

in addition to that as well as shrapnel an explosive has a shock wave which can break bones, liquefy organs and shatter electronics if too close

Offline kurja

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Re: On...a bunch of stuff
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2012, 05:13:11 pm »
and aliens certainly aren't shooting twenty twos or nine mills at our Phalanx field operatives ;)

But, being more serious, in terms of game play I don't see a difference in whether a shot in the armour gave 1 or 0 points of damage. A possibility for a 0 point hit might be more realistic but I don't think ufoai is trying to be a full-on realistic combat simulator, so either way, it's all good.

Offline TrashMan

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Re: On...a bunch of stuff
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2012, 05:24:09 pm »
but if you get shot in body armour it might stop the bullet but much of the energy is still applied to the body leaving the shot person sore and bruised in the area under the impact site, possibly disorientated and or stunned as well.

Felling a bit of force doesn't hurt you. A light bruise doesn't even qualify as injury. Shock does produice damage and in that case it is modeled as damage.

It's farely simple - either a shot injures you, or it doesn't. There is no in between.

Offline Sandro

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Re: On...a bunch of stuff
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2012, 12:14:26 am »
but if you get shot in body armour it might stop the bullet but much of the energy is still applied to the body leaving the shot person sore and bruised in the area under the impact site, possibly disorientated and or stunned as well.

I remember a FIDOnet (~1996) story written by a female police worker. She was a part of assault team, and while rushing in the room got two hits -- one into top side of left kidney area, and the other one hit her (waist-high) kevlar vest slightly above.

As she described it: "first hit was painful, but bearable; second (to the vest), was like I've got a full-swing sledgehammer hit to the stomach, so I've collapsed to the floor, and couldn't do anything for the rest of the operation."

Offline TrashMan

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Re: On...a bunch of stuff
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2012, 10:33:59 am »
That would be stamina/energy damage.

If anyone of you played Jagged Alliacne 2, you know what I'm talking about. You could totally knock someone down without killing him if you applied enough force to his chest.

Offline Crystan

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Re: On...a bunch of stuff
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2012, 12:54:50 pm »
If anyone of you played Jagged Alliacne 2, you know what I'm talking about. You could totally knock someone down without killing him if you applied enough force to his chest.
ELIOT! YOU IDIOT!

Oh yes, i also love the first one too but loved the mechanics of JA2. A mixture of UFO and JA2 would be probably the best round based game in the world... ;)
« Last Edit: May 27, 2012, 12:57:51 pm by Crystan »

Offline TrashMan

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Re: On...a bunch of stuff
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2012, 01:58:57 pm »