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Author Topic: Mortars  (Read 14195 times)

Offline Jon_dArc

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Re: Mortars
« Reply #30 on: May 18, 2012, 04:46:11 pm »
On the topic of mortars, it would be nice to get some additional projectile angles, at least a high-angle release for the GL and grenades—the contortions required to attack a target out of direct LOS on adjacent higher terrain, or on the far side of a wall or other obstruction, are pretty painful. It wasn't always a panacea, but the removal of airburst in favour of impact makes the problem worse.

Maybe an additional fire mode for grenades (change current "lob" to "throw", new high-angle mode called "lob") and two for the GL grenades (timed and impact—it's not clear to me that we need the ability to perform high-angle aimed shots, though if people aren't scared off by eight firemodes I certainly wouldn't complain)? Seems easier than finding a way to give the player more fine-grained trajectory control, even if that would ultimately be nicer.

~J

Offline H-Hour

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Re: Mortars
« Reply #31 on: May 19, 2012, 06:14:10 pm »
The only difference between Airburst and Impact is the name. I agonized forever to find a better name than Airburst, and now you have shown me that Impact can also be confusing, because it can explode without hitting anything.

I changed the name because Airbust always confused me: does that mean it explodes on target or that it will explode after a given time, even if it's in the air? It may seem obvious after learning the weapon, but I would really like to come up with names for each firemode that are clear and distinct. Any recommendations?

Offline Nutter

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Re: Mortars
« Reply #32 on: May 19, 2012, 06:22:59 pm »
The launcher transmits distance from target to the grenade which then detonates in mid air at the set distance so this happens.
Don't really see how the term could be confusing.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2012, 06:28:20 pm by Nutter »

Offline H-Hour

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Re: Mortars
« Reply #33 on: May 19, 2012, 07:32:03 pm »
Don't really see how the term could be confusing.

Both firemodes detonate based on timers and both firemodes can detonate in the air. That can make it difficult to find names that make the distinction clear. Airburst may be better than Impact, but I'd still like to find something better.

Offline headdie

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Re: Mortars
« Reply #34 on: May 19, 2012, 07:36:16 pm »
An impact explosive impacts like it says on impact, triggers can be
 - small amount of shock detonated explosive in the tip of the device
 - plunger or other depression triggered fuse

Air burst explodes while in the air, triggers can be
 - Timer (usually milliseconds)
 - rotation XM25 uses this where by it measures the number of times it has spun using the spin caused by the weapons rifling
 - In the case of aerially dropped weapons pressure sensors detecting the change in air preasure.

To add to the confusion timers/set length fuses are the traditional fuses for hand grenades which means they will only detonate after a set time
« Last Edit: May 19, 2012, 07:41:24 pm by headdie »

Offline TrashMan

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Re: Mortars
« Reply #35 on: May 19, 2012, 10:37:46 pm »
I propose:
- IMPACT (detonates when it hits something)
- TIMED (detonates after X seconds, and thus, can bounce around corners)
- AIRBURT (explodes in air above target. Larger radius, smaller damage).

Offline Sandro

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Re: Mortars
« Reply #36 on: May 19, 2012, 10:55:09 pm »
Both firemodes detonate based on timers and both firemodes can detonate in the air. That can make it difficult to find names that make the distinction clear. Airburst may be better than Impact, but I'd still like to find something better.

Maybe, "Fixed range"? Or even "Preset range"?

Offline Nutter

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Re: Mortars
« Reply #37 on: May 19, 2012, 11:45:54 pm »
Perhaps give IC airburst with an increased radius but a shorter effect (if they're ever going to last for a reasonable time span) and impact while HE gets impact and timed?

Offline Jon_dArc

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Re: Mortars
« Reply #38 on: May 20, 2012, 03:44:22 am »
The only difference between Airburst and Impact is the name.
Wait, seriously? Confirmation bias strikes again—I had a distinct impression of a difference.

Thoughts in the morning, when brain working again.

~J

Offline Jon_dArc

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Re: Mortars
« Reply #39 on: May 20, 2012, 04:02:54 am »
I'm stuck waiting for the cat to come back inside, so while I don't have the brainpower to look at how grenades work now and answer the question "what should this be called", I do have it in me to look at the two preexisting names and say what they should be.

Impact: launch a grenade that explodes exactly when it might otherwise bounce.

Airburst: launch a grenade that explodes, modulo accuracy concerns, at the location (including elevation) it was targeted at.

Now, that definition of "airburst" leaves undefined the case in which the grenade hits something before reaching its post-accuracy-adjustment target. Having the round fail to detonate is almost certainly not what the player would want in the vast majority of circumstances, so that leaves either detonating or bouncing on premature impact. I think detonating would be the superior choice, what with being more player-friendly (if they wanted to bounce, they could have used timed mode), but either would be defensible.

With the caveat again that my brain is mostly not working right now, the current mechanic feels closer to airburst—but I do note that when elevation is changed before firing, the shot travels significantly beyond the target point before detonating.

So yeah, more after sleep.

~J

Offline H-Hour

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Re: Mortars
« Reply #40 on: May 20, 2012, 10:23:04 am »
Yes, there's some confusion in this thread, I think. Some of the ideas here are not bad, but they just don't match what our firemodes do at the moment, and I don't think we're likely to be coding a new firemode functionality soon (although I, too, would like some more control over grenade launcher angle at some point).

Part of the confusion is that our Airbust/Impact firemode does BOTH:

Airburst: It will detonate upon reaching target, even if it hasn't hit anything.

Impact: If it makes contact with something before reaching the target, it will detonate.

For ease of use, I think this is actually better than having two separate modes. It seems fairly intuitive to me and the grenade launcher already has the most complicated firemodes. I don't want to complicate it further unless it's really necessary.

The only problem I have is how to name it in a way that it can not be confused at all for the slow timer mode. Maybe timer could be called "Bounced"?

Offline TrashMan

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Re: Mortars
« Reply #41 on: May 20, 2012, 10:42:39 am »
Remvte the burt modes from grenade launcher. Implement several different singel-shot modes and do them justice.

Offline H-Hour

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Re: Mortars
« Reply #42 on: May 20, 2012, 11:18:43 am »
Remvte the burt modes from grenade launcher.

Already done.

Offline Triaxx2

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Re: Mortars
« Reply #43 on: June 07, 2012, 04:28:40 pm »
That's kind of sad. I liked having the three-round burst available for engaging small groups. It means there's no way to deal with large groups other than wasting time by firing multiple individuals, or trying to throw hand grenades.

Having AirB/Imp as one mode, and Timed as another works quite well.

Offline kurja

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Re: Mortars
« Reply #44 on: June 07, 2012, 05:11:32 pm »
Part of the confusion is that our Airbust/Impact firemode does BOTH:

Airburst: It will detonate upon reaching target, even if it hasn't hit anything.

Impact: If it makes contact with something before reaching the target, it will detonate.

In my opinion there are two problems with using the GL in 2.5, one is the high trajectory thing and other is that currently there is no way to make it detonate in mid air at a given location with impact/timer firing modes. Also, the timer mode seems somewhat obscure; apparently the grenade will go off when some set time has elapsed, but I can't figure out what that time might be or if it can be set shorter or longer.

What's this airburst mode you're all talking about, was there one in 2.4? I think there was airburst mode in 2.3? Ufopedia still mentions airburst though.