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Author Topic: Keeping the Nations Happy in 2.4  (Read 34551 times)

Offline homunculus

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Re: Keeping the Nations Happy in 2.4
« Reply #30 on: January 10, 2012, 03:05:55 am »
there is such game like x-force where, as far as i remember, ufo-s gathered some happiness points from nations by flying over nation territories and probably more by landing here and there, and then the ufo-s flew away back into space.

in short, the ufo-s came to earth to take away our happiness.

so the player had to shoot down the ufo (before the ufo left) and do a mission to recover the happiness of the nations the ufo had gathered points from.
it was nice to read a clear statement about it somewhere.

i wonder what the happiness model is based on in ufo:ai.

Offline Coyote

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Re: Keeping the Nations Happy in 2.4
« Reply #31 on: January 10, 2012, 09:28:14 pm »
Coyote, could you offer you savegame for analysis?

-geever

Here's my latest playthrough.  This one is in mid-May, and as you'll notice all of the nations are quite satisfied with my performance, with none of them going below 'Pleased' and most of them in the Happy/Exuberant range.  You can also see that most of them actually reduced my funding significantly at the end of April - the Revolutionary Countries, in particular, very nearly stopped funding me altogether - despite the fact that I did every available tactical mission and sold every captured UFO to them their opinion never went above Neutral until May.  Russia, oddly, kept its funding for me the exact same up until a few in-game days ago, never increasing or decreasing its satisfaction rating no matter what I did, while the Asian Republic and Commonwealth of Oceania were actually fairly satisfied with my performance - most of the missions I did were on their territory, so I assume that has something to do with it.

You'll also notice that the secondary combat team based at Groom Lake is equipped with plasma pistols and nothing else; I was in a hurry to equip them quickly for a terror mission in Panama and haven't gotten around to giving them proper gear yet.  And yes, I know Baikonur is in the wrong place, I couldn't remember exactly where it was so I just plopped the base randomly in Kazakhstan.

Offline Gren

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Re: Keeping the Nations Happy in 2.4
« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2012, 01:45:10 pm »
Just wondered if there has been anything further with this.

I am trying Very Hard level and still not having too much luck.

Attached savegame opens up at 1659hrs on 30th May 2084.
I have 1 and a half bases. (still building base 02)

Stats show Nation Hapiness levels as:
1 - Mad
3 - Content
1 - Tolerant
2 - Happy
1 - Neutral

I have tried re-loading this save many times to try to move forward.
When Scout appears, send out Saracen and shoot down.
Send out DS and mop up and sell the UFO to a: The Unhappiest Nation and b: the Highest Bidder (in one test case to the lowest bidder) Apart from the Oriental Map error of "Bad Routing Lump" (already reported) when I take on the mission and I have to choose to auto-complete - whatever action I take, as soon as the clock/calendar rolls over to pay-time (1st June - 1 and a half days later) the game ends with the "You've Lost The Game" screen.

Offline wizardelo

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Re: Keeping the Nations Happy in 2.4
« Reply #33 on: January 20, 2012, 04:12:46 pm »
i have to agree with this, i played a fair game, did all crash sites, and took down all alien ships that were in my range, and not flying awya form me, made 2 aditional bases, 3 sam batteries fully equiped, but i stil got 1 country rebeling:/ before i couild even put nanoarmor on a full squad.

this needs a fix

Offline homunculus

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Re: Keeping the Nations Happy in 2.4
« Reply #34 on: January 20, 2012, 10:26:29 pm »
@Gren
a base that is meant for protecting-humankind-from-alien-threat has
1) entrance
2) living quarters
3) command center
4) power plant
5) storage
6) radar
7) small hangar
8) large hangar
how quickly this gets built is very simple math (see screenshot).

looking at your game file, you seem to be quite a builder, lol.
what good is a second base if it is right next to the first one?
and, more importantly, what do you do with all those labs so early in the game?
the aliens are killing civilians with impunity in south america, but phalanx base commander is acting as if it was some kind of a game, or else like some private business of his, trying to build strategically and invest into research.
do you think the nations are stupid and do not understand that?

Offline Gren

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Re: Keeping the Nations Happy in 2.4
« Reply #35 on: January 20, 2012, 11:43:51 pm »
@Gren
a base that is meant for protecting-humankind-from-alien-threat has
1) entrance
2) living quarters
3) command center
4) power plant
5) storage
6) radar
7) small hangar
8) large hangar
how quickly this gets built is very simple math (see screenshot).

looking at your game file, you seem to be quite a builder, lol.
what good is a second base if it is right next to the first one?
and, more importantly, what do you do with all those labs so early in the game?
the aliens are killing civilians with impunity in south america, but phalanx base commander is acting as if it was some kind of a game, or else like some private business of his, trying to build strategically and invest into research.
do you think the nations are stupid and do not understand that?

Well thanks for your words homunculus, but I guess I have a good idea of what a base needs to function and your screen-shot tells me nothing.  ???

In this campaign, I set up Base 1 (HQ - if you wish) somewhere in the mid-northern area of the Algerian desert and my second base in the Gulf areas (Saudi Arabia/UAE) - are you trying to tell me that these are too close to each other?

I built 3 labs in Base 1 to prepare for all the research that is required... 30 Scientists still make a slow job of their tasks-in-hand.. especially when, at this stage of the campaign, only 25 are available. Are you of the opinion that that is also bad practice?

Perhaps the Aliens are killing civilians elsewhere on the globe, but I am of the opinion that within THIS game, where those areas are out of radar-sight, eye-sight or whatever, it should not have an effect on the success or failure of Phalanx and the campaign, until at least a decent period for the establishment of Phalanx is achieved.
I don't think that your argument here is a valid one, especially when I am advised of activity in a country on the opposite side of the globe to where my first bases are and I have to despatch a drop-ship with crew on a very long trip in answer to the report.

No - I don't believe I play the game thinking that the nations are stupid (tbh - I never gave it a thought  ::)) but I do understand that this is a game where the player can experience absorbing pleasure in the game's objectives and that a difficulty level should primarily be based around the ferocity of the attackers and mission difficulty - rather than based purely on how or where a base is situated and the progress of the build at any given moment on the calendar.

I am informed (as my save-game reveals) that I have failed and lost the game within something like 9 weeks into the campaign at this level. I have no trouble with my build strategy in Standard level and the Hard level I am seeing some success with atm - so all I am saying is that I believe that the controls for the Very Hard level should be revisited and looked at - and really, it shouldn't be a pre-cursor to invite tongue-in-cheek comments which may be seen to be pointing ridicule - if you have something constructive to add to the thread - then I would really welcome it.

Thank-you for the input anyway.  ;)
« Last Edit: January 20, 2012, 11:48:58 pm by Gren »

Offline homunculus

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Re: Keeping the Nations Happy in 2.4
« Reply #36 on: January 21, 2012, 10:00:43 am »
I built 3 labs in Base 1 to prepare for all the research that is required... 30 Scientists still make a slow job of their tasks-in-hand.. especially when, at this stage of the campaign, only 25 are available. Are you of the opinion that that is also bad practice?
yes, this is exactly what i am saying, probably about 5-th time now, and you seem to have made progress, at least you now noticed it.
so, why did you not notice this before?
this is probably the same reason why you don't see anything in the screenshot.

the nations are smart enough to realize that your phalanx management style is such that the nations would prefer being properly killed by aliens rather than being insulted like that by their own kind (= killed civilians in south america are an investment in your phalanx business).
and not only that, but it seems your phalanx commander is also self-righteous while doing so.

the whole thing seems to be about unlearning what you might have learned in different situations in other games.

from the style of your post it seems that the unlearning is too much to digest right now, and after the shock you might need some time to come to terms with yourself, and anything i write as further explanation would rather lead to useless arguments until then.

i mean, in my opinion, you base management is that much off.

it is like 'all the civilians got killed while phalanx soldiers were running for the best sniping position'.

edit:
oh, i certainly forgot the demagogic rule: overkill is better than "just about right".
i am going to correct this mistake now.

so, you are not protecting people as fast as you could, which is not as fast as some ordinary construction worker could issue the orders to build those 8 buildings, because you are making a strategic investment that is beyond the comprehension of mere mortals.
indirectly, the strategic investment comes from dead latinos.
so, you are saying that the latinos should not count.
maybe it is because you think that all that the latinos do is carnivals, cutting down rain forests, and growing cocaine anyway, and such investment would be reasonable.
let the latinos die.
then, maybe you would think that dead chinese should count less, because there are so many of them anyway.
what about dead black people, they have strange customs and way of life, they might not count as real humans.
what about dead muslims, they are terrorists anyway.
what about women, they might be inferior, you know, it might be appropriate that they counted as half maybe.
jews would be complicated--on one hand, nazis thought they would make the world a better place by killing jews, on the other hand if it comes to financing, jews might count twice.

i think it is good that you cannot play with this attitude in ufo:ai, at least on very hard level.
and i think that being able to play the game with just one base like in x-com: enemy unknown was an artifact, and ufo:ai is better at least in that point.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2012, 02:42:49 pm by homunculus »

Offline Gren

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Re: Keeping the Nations Happy in 2.4
« Reply #37 on: January 21, 2012, 05:39:15 pm »
edit:
oh, i certainly forgot the demagogic rule: overkill is better than "just about right".
i am going to correct this mistake now.

so, you are not protecting people as fast as you could, which is not as fast as some ordinary construction worker could issue the orders to build those 8 buildings, because you are making a strategic investment that is beyond the comprehension of mere mortals.
indirectly, the strategic investment comes from dead latinos.
so, you are saying that the latinos should not count.
maybe it is because you think that all that the latinos do is carnivals, cutting down rain forests, and growing cocaine anyway, and such investment would be reasonable.
let the latinos die.
then, maybe you would think that dead chinese should count less, because there are so many of them anyway.
what about dead black people, they have strange customs and way of life, they might not count as real humans.
what about dead muslims, they are terrorists anyway.
what about women, they might be inferior, you know, it might be appropriate that they counted as half maybe.
jews would be complicated--on one hand, nazis thought they would make the world a better place by killing jews, on the other hand if it comes to financing, jews might count twice.

i think it is good that you cannot play with this attitude in ufo:ai, at least on very hard level.
and i think that being able to play the game with just one base like in x-com: enemy unknown was an artifact, and ufo:ai is better at least in that point.

Total and utter flame-baiting rubbish!

Offline homunculus

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Re: Keeping the Nations Happy in 2.4
« Reply #38 on: January 21, 2012, 06:47:52 pm »
happy failing, and you already know it yourself, don't you.

Offline AusJolt

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Re: Keeping the Nations Happy in 2.4
« Reply #39 on: April 19, 2012, 04:25:52 pm »
Something definitely broke somewhere.

Very Easy Difficulty, base in Europe, attacking everything I can without letting troops get killed and have a second base operational covering America (both nations)... still have countries ready to give up in a little over two weeks

modified the campaigns file to decrease anger rate of nations to basically nothing and grant absurd amount of starting money (enough to build four bases with ease... they start giving up within a month.

Offline H-Hour

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Re: Keeping the Nations Happy in 2.4
« Reply #40 on: April 19, 2012, 05:02:27 pm »
AusJolt, can you provide a save game file? Thanks.

Offline Redtide

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Re: Keeping the Nations Happy in 2.4
« Reply #41 on: May 01, 2012, 07:35:09 pm »
Well thanks for your words homunculus, but I guess I have a good idea of what a base needs to function and your screen-shot tells me nothing.  ???

In this campaign, I set up Base 1 (HQ - if you wish) somewhere in the mid-northern area of the Algerian desert and my second base in the Gulf areas (Saudi Arabia/UAE) - are you trying to tell me that these are too close to each other?

I built 3 labs in Base 1 to prepare for all the research that is required... 30 Scientists still make a slow job of their tasks-in-hand.. especially when, at this stage of the campaign, only 25 are available. Are you of the opinion that that is also bad practice?

Perhaps the Aliens are killing civilians elsewhere on the globe, but I am of the opinion that within THIS game, where those areas are out of radar-sight, eye-sight or whatever, it should not have an effect on the success or failure of Phalanx and the campaign, until at least a decent period for the establishment of Phalanx is achieved.
I don't think that your argument here is a valid one, especially when I am advised of activity in a country on the opposite side of the globe to where my first bases are and I have to despatch a drop-ship with crew on a very long trip in answer to the report.

No - I don't believe I play the game thinking that the nations are stupid (tbh - I never gave it a thought  ::)) but I do understand that this is a game where the player can experience absorbing pleasure in the game's objectives and that a difficulty level should primarily be based around the ferocity of the attackers and mission difficulty - rather than based purely on how or where a base is situated and the progress of the build at any given moment on the calendar.

I am informed (as my save-game reveals) that I have failed and lost the game within something like 9 weeks into the campaign at this level. I have no trouble with my build strategy in Standard level and the Hard level I am seeing some success with atm - so all I am saying is that I believe that the controls for the Very Hard level should be revisited and looked at - and really, it shouldn't be a pre-cursor to invite tongue-in-cheek comments which may be seen to be pointing ridicule - if you have something constructive to add to the thread - then I would really welcome it.

Thank-you for the input anyway.  ;)

I think the point he is trying to make is that Very Hard means it's going to be very hard. You have to be proactive in getting more bases of coverage up rather than trying to build a lot of workshops and labs. It's like playing an RTS game vs a really good player and saying NO RUSH 15 MIN. Very hard isn't just going to let you build up like that until you get solid multi-base coverage. If you don't care for that, play on lower difficulties or modify the files yourself. Some people like the challenge of being on the razor's edge and being forced to expand as quickly as possible.

Offline kurja

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Re: Keeping the Nations Happy in 2.4
« Reply #42 on: May 28, 2012, 12:30:18 am »
Was something changed in this regard for the final 2.4 release? I'm playing on the hardest and it's, well, easy.

There are more aliens per tac mission (which is great!), nations were a bit grumpy at first before I managed to build a second base, now they're happy/exuberant but funding is still low (negative after base expenses etc, but selling alien stuff keeps me running without a problem). I'm in the later stages of the game now, having researched coilgun etc.

Offline Battlescared

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Re: Keeping the Nations Happy in 2.4
« Reply #43 on: May 28, 2012, 04:13:53 pm »
I played on Hard, which is not the same, I know, but I've never had any issues with keeping them happy.  Usually any time someone gets a little unhappy with me I sell them a recovered UFO and they perk right up.  I've just glanced through the thread but I didn't really see that mentioned, just about building bases and keeping good coverage.  The countries I didn't have bases in complained the most, but I had everyone happy with just one or two bases in the beginning and within 6-8 months everyone was exuberant.  In the beginning, selling UFO's generates more cash than selling them because you get more money from the countries.

Offline Flyshberg

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Re: Keeping the Nations Happy in 2.4
« Reply #44 on: June 02, 2012, 03:52:37 pm »
I have a question for the people who managed the nations' unhappiness by building two bases:

Where did you build your bases?