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Author Topic: Base Defence  (Read 11883 times)

Offline Spyda665

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Base Defence
« on: June 10, 2011, 02:41:39 pm »
So Im pretty new to UFO-AI but enjoyed it as i started to get into it. Then Terror struck!! My first base defence!!! Even with the SAM sights, and Base defences i was under attack =ARGH= ... What to do ...

First thing i noticed was my "regular" soldiers, that i had stationed on my firebird had been replaced with backup "unarmed" soldiers i had in my base, and with this being pretty early on in the game i didnt have enough primary or heavy weapons to equip them, Just secondary SMG's, Pistols etc. Now as you imagine, this mission didnt go terribly well. Firstly it took me around bout 30 minutes before i ran into an alien, Then (My soldiers all being nubs) couldnt even hit one! Then ... they died. I tried again with the same consiquences, so as you can probably guess i stopped playing and havent gone back to it yet. So i thought i would make a small post with a few ideas i had about making the base defence missions a little more exciting / Fun and playable specially for early on in the game.

Now before i start i know alot of people probably dont have much in the way of a problem with base missions, as they've been playing a while and know alien tactics and entrances / exits etc, and can pretty much get through these missions unscathed, but as a new player to UFO-AI i dont, and having your missions last what seems like an eternity only to end up dead is offputting, so im making these points as a Nub. Oh, and i was playing the game on easy which makes it even more annoying that i couldt complete a single mission lol


Base: So first off the base is ginormous. Now if it was only underground structures that would be fine, but as theres underground and overground its pretty much impossible to cover the area with a squad of 8. I think even banks have more security guards!

I think what is needed is a base section that houses a home squad, even if it is only 8 soldiers between them and the 8 onboard the Firebird thats 16 troopers, Enough to cover the majority of the base and still have leftovers to patrol for hostiles. As i said earlier, i just stopped paying for now, because im up against what seems like an impossible mission

I have read a post about automated defences, Well, i think they are a good idea, =but= instead of automatic weapons how about mounted weapons, You know like that scene in aliens where they set up the machine guns in the passage. Weapons that sit on tripods, carried by troops and placed at strategic locations combatting two problems at once, the first being able to detect movement giving the soldiers a hint of where the invaders are, and the second being able to shoot at it!


Save: Mission screens need a save, Seems like its always the last 1-2 aliens i find that decide to wipe out 5-6 of the squad in the final turns, Then its back to the start which is really offputting.

Accuracy: I know the new recruits are raw and unexperienced but urgh ... really, 98% chance of miss seems to be how it goes, even my soldiers that have been out on a dozen or so missions still couldnt hit a bull in the butt with a bass fiddle, Yes that 98% chance of fail actually happened with my sniper, as i said, im new to the game, but in complete and total honesty, i dont think a soldier has actuall killed an alien with a "player controlled" shot. They seem to fire alright when using their TU's in the alien turns, but when i tell someone to shoot, its a guaranteed fail. Maybe there could be a base extension for in-base training, it could train soldiers who arent on missions up to say, a maximum of 30 points in their accuracy, or chosen weapon skill. Just something to help hit the target the aim for and not the innocent bystander thats 30 foot away (Yup that happened too).


Other than that, i love the game, its going to betotally awesome when its finished, and i just cant wait.


So there you have it, my little recomendations from a totally "nub" point of view

(PS ignore typos, my wirless keyboard really hates it when i press letters)

Offline Hertzila

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Re: Base Defence
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2011, 08:01:34 pm »
Base: So first off the base is ginormous. Now if it was only underground structures that would be fine, but as theres underground and overground its pretty much impossible to cover the area with a squad of 8. I think even banks have more security guards!

I think what is needed is a base section that houses a home squad, even if it is only 8 soldiers between them and the 8 onboard the Firebird thats 16 troopers, Enough to cover the majority of the base and still have leftovers to patrol for hostiles. As i said earlier, i just stopped paying for now, because im up against what seems like an impossible mission

I have read a post about automated defences, Well, i think they are a good idea, =but= instead of automatic weapons how about mounted weapons, You know like that scene in aliens where they set up the machine guns in the passage. Weapons that sit on tripods, carried by troops and placed at strategic locations combatting two problems at once, the first being able to detect movement giving the soldiers a hint of where the invaders are, and the second being able to shoot at it!

IIRC when somebody comes around and updates the UI to have more soldier slots the limit will be increased.
At least according to geever (I think).
I'm not terribly sure if/when advanced base defence stuff will come into play. I guess it'll happen when someone programs the things in. So if you happen to know anyone who's good with programming...

Also, at some point UGVs are going to come into play (in versions that is, they're not in yet) and that means a huge increase in firepower for us earthlings.

Save: Mission screens need a save, Seems like its always the last 1-2 aliens i find that decide to wipe out 5-6 of the squad in the final turns, Then its back to the start which is really offputting.

Since I think it's rude to just shout "USE THE F****ING SEARCH BUTTON!!" and you have lots of other stuff in here, I'm going to say it in small letters: Please use the search feature in the upper right.
Seriously though, this has been suggested to death and turned down to death. Both on gameplay and technical reasons. Not going to happen.

Accuracy: I know the new recruits are raw and unexperienced but urgh ... really, 98% chance of miss seems to be how it goes, even my soldiers that have been out on a dozen or so missions still couldnt hit a bull in the butt with a bass fiddle, Yes that 98% chance of fail actually happened with my sniper, as i said, im new to the game, but in complete and total honesty, i dont think a soldier has actuall killed an alien with a "player controlled" shot. They seem to fire alright when using their TU's in the alien turns, but when i tell someone to shoot, its a guaranteed fail. Maybe there could be a base extension for in-base training, it could train soldiers who arent on missions up to say, a maximum of 30 points in their accuracy, or chosen weapon skill. Just something to help hit the target the aim for and not the innocent bystander thats 30 foot away (Yup that happened too).

I'm not actually sure what's going on here. I'm playing on normal and my guys are actually pretty decent shots when comparing to all the horror stories. Did you always crouch before firing? Have you equipped everybody according to their stats? Do you have laser weapons yet?


PS. Welcome to the forums!



E: If you feel like 'cheating' a bit:
in 2.3 I just hire 1 soldier for each base.  Don't even need guns.  Just auto the base defense, and you'll win almost every time.  I don't think I've ever seen a loss.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2011, 08:06:22 pm by Hertzila »

Offline Spyda665

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Re: Base Defence
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2011, 02:04:06 pm »
Yeah, I know about the save thing, it was something that came to mind while i was writing, and was only after i posted i decided to go search on that subject  :'(
As for the equipped gear and such, Thats a yes, My lil' men (and women) are usually always crouched, equipped with the weapon they have the best skill in. Ive noticed ome slight improvements in the last few games, a couple have just reached 30 in their weapon and are hitting a lot more often.

Thanks for the reply, Going to go now and autodefend the base mission so i can get on with playing!

Offline TrashMan

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Re: Base Defence
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2011, 06:00:40 pm »
You know..one alternative would be to have AI controlled extra squads in the base.

the player controls one squad, the AI takes over the rest...surely the base has more than just 8 people working in it.

Offline TallTroll

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Re: Base Defence
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2011, 01:19:47 pm »
What's needed is a "virtual dropship" to allow you to assign soldiers explicitly to base defence. But again, that's more code, which someone has to write

Offline geever

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Re: Base Defence
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2011, 01:45:03 pm »
What's needed is a "virtual dropship" to allow you to assign soldiers explicitly to base defence. But again, that's more code, which someone has to write

That's exactly how it works now! However it's not the right way to do it.

-geever

Offline TallTroll

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Re: Base Defence
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2011, 03:08:04 pm »
>> That's exactly how it works now!

Sorry, I should have been more specific. Currently, the "virtual dropship" is simply populated as needed from the top of the bases' soldiers list, which may coincide in whole or in part with soldiers assigned to another dropship (in which case, they get the equipment assigned to them from there).

You can't control who gets used, it's just the first 8 on the list, even if they are badly wounded, for instance. What would be better would be a persistent base defense group, so you can have a base supporting a designated defence unit which is *always* the first in line, so you can actually manage the membership and equipment of your designated defenders as you can with your expeditionary squads.

One solution would be a *persistent* virtual dropship, probably tied to an active Command Centre. Once it is active, it becomes a special category of hangar, and is assigned by a default a special dropship, called the Base Defence Squad, which has no equipment or weapon slots, needs no pilot and cannot be launched onto the Battlescape (presumably because it has no range, no speed etc). The dropship also cannot be transferred, bought, sold etc. It's simply a container for ground troops and UGVs

It's a bit of a fudge, because I suspect it would have to be displayed in the "aircraft" tab, which is a bit counter-intuitive, but functionally correct (and involves minimum UI changes, too). It would become available when it meets all display criteria (which ties in with the existing system), and is somehow marked as the first place to go for defenders during a base attack (although I have to confess, I have no clue how feasible that is to code. There may be engine contraints which make that impossible, for instance). Since the membership and equipment management stuff necessary all lives in the existing dropship coding, that would just need replicating.

Ideally, you might even be able to eventually control the size of your defence force by building more advanced (ie expensive) Command Centres, once the UI changes for varying squads sizes is implemented. A small radar-and-one-interceptor type base might only rate a cheap, 6 slot defence squad, whereas your dedicated research / production bases might rate the 2-space, hugely expensive Advanced Command Bunker, which allows 10 foot troops and 2 UGVs, suitable for fending off a Battleship-full of late game aliens

>> However it's not the right way to do it

I know I've seen discussions from the devs on how to deal with base defences, but not knowing enough about how the code works, I can't say for sure what the merits of any solution might be. So far as I understand the workings of the code, I think a good solution on the lines of what I've said here is possible without the need to make huge changes, but my understanding may well be flawed.

I've effectively sidestepped the issue myself, by deliberately selecting my Firebird crews exclusively from *below* the 8th "unused" soldier assigned to a base, and by keeping all the equipment I would want to use in a base defence in storage. Thus, in the event of a base attack, I have exactly the equipment and  squad I want (slight exception it the case of wounded soldiers somehow higher up the order being selected if they are using the base hospital. You can also work around that by reverting to a previous save, and reassigning your low-number wounded to another hospital facility).

I love flamers for base defence, btw. Because it's such a confined map, it's rare to see something that's out of range, and it's a great use for low-stat troopers. Anyone can be a hero with a flamethrower  :)

Offline OllyG

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Re: Base Defence
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2012, 11:27:51 am »
My base recently got attacked (in v.2.4).  The base was very large, my only defenders were 4 injured soldiers my other soldiers were on a misson.  I died and my base was destroyed.  I spent the rest of the month with no ground forces, but carried on and did fine once the countries paid me.
There are no civilians in the base defence mission.  What about all the scientists and workers who dies when I lost?  They should be in the base.  Maybe 1 civilian for every five scientists and workers would be good (the rest could be hiding).  This would mean you could loose a few scientists even if you win.
I liked that my wounded men started in the hospital.  The base should possibly get damaged in the fighting, this would make it more interesting.  Placement of buildings should matter more than just starting location.
It is very easy to move soldiers between bases by firing and hiring.  They shouldn't move faster than normal transfering, now I have played more and realised this my bases are easier to defend, as long as I see the UFO coming!

Offline DrunkenStranger

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Re: Base Defence
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2012, 10:40:20 pm »
In x-com: apoclypse was one itresting feature: enemies may not enter your base - only bomb it to full destruction from air. And that was great because in x-com: UFO Defence i never tried to itercept enemy battleship directed to my base. why? they any case lands - then i got undamaged ufo with all bonuces.

just little remark

Offline Snowblind

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Re: Base Defence
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2012, 03:53:10 am »
My first base defense, I was amazed there was an above ground! Before that I thought the base was some kilometer under a mountain or some such, no wonder the aliens spotted the place!

Which makes you wonder why you have an expensive entrance (just a hut and a basement) and everything has to be built in sequence adjacent to it, when everything is only basement level anyways, with just structures poking from the surface. Crazy they didn't just blow the place up with their badassed spaceship, instead they landed somewhere and sent 5 guys with plasma pistols to take the place over. I think the security guard at the gate could have probably stopped those guys.

I also hired every idiot rookie they sent me thinking I could use them during base defense, but my A-team dropship crew happened to be home at the moment so I filled up my 8 slots with them.

Offline krilain

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Re: Base Defence
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2013, 12:55:44 am »
(...)Crazy they didn't just blow the place up with their badassed spaceship, instead they landed somewhere and sent 5 guys with plasma pistols to take the place over. (...)
This sounds right.
Maybe a base should be attacked rather than be bombed only if our phallanx keep some captured aliens in there.

By the way, I mean also , that the alien team should head on the containment as a primary objective. And also this as a third consequence : if they discover there dead bodies they should be in rage and become the most agressive possible. Else if the aliens have reach their brothers and if they have seen that they are alive, I would propose that if the ones of the aliens that are free don't free the hostages (for technical reasons), they could anyway gain a visible bonus for having reached this objective (e.g. psi bonus).

Easier to say than do of course ;-)
« Last Edit: January 19, 2013, 12:59:48 am by krilain »

Offline homunculus

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Re: Base Defence
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2013, 02:01:37 pm »
[...]if they discover there dead bodies they should be in rage and become the most agressive possible.[...]
i would find it unbelievable that the aliens could have conquered space with this kind of lack of discipline.