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Author Topic: "FIX BAYONET"  (Read 7290 times)

Offline LuckyLindy

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"FIX BAYONET"
« on: April 24, 2011, 03:39:58 pm »
Since I was an American Comabat Arms paratrooper, how about an option to "Fix Bayonets" with devastating damage effects.  Rationale:  Throughtout the 18th, 19th and 20th Century, infantry tactics inluded bayonets.  It was the bane of the early American Revolution when British would approach and devestate the raw American Lines with bayonets.  Currently, the tactics are used for crowd suppression and fending off an overrun enemy attack.  Adding the ability to use the combat knife and its alien successor to attach to the assault weapons and laser rifles would add an interesting ability for close range combat.  How many times have I turned a corner and come face to face with an Ortnok or Taman.  Stabbing and/or slashing would be an excellent addition to the gameplay, in my opinion.

Anyway, 2 cents from an Artillery Officer and Fire Support Specialist, and Airborne Ranger.  "All the Way!"

Offline Destructavator

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Re: "FIX BAYONET"
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2011, 05:19:54 pm »
...But would it penetrate alien skin, and especially alien armor?

Sorry, I don't mean to shoot down your idea, but in more recent times, more modern warfare, are they still used so commonly?  If so, do they have any hope of working against an opponent wearing armor?

Again, I'm not necessarily trying to oppose this, but rather I'm asking because I was never in the military and I just don't know.

Offline Kemlo

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Re: "FIX BAYONET"
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2011, 06:24:38 pm »
I'm sure they are still useful, not all parts of the body are armored.

To me though, while realistic, this would make rifles too good and unbalance the game. There would be no point to carrying a knife or close range weapon if this were added.

Offline LuckyLindy

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Re: "FIX BAYONET"
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2011, 02:12:31 pm »
Bayonet tactics are still taught and practiced.  However, I concede that I do not know of an instance whereby the U.S. Military has used it since the Central American Drug wars (1988) or the National Guard in Katrina (New Orleans & Biloxi) for crowd and looting control, and then only for show.  The bayonet will easily penetrate the kevlar armor, not the plates.  Then by your arguments, why even use the combat knife, or the alien hybrid knife?  They are devasting in this game at close range.  If they are fixed to the rifle, then you save the TU's and brutalize the alien.  Being attached to the weapon gives you a lever arm and can really mess up the alien; isn't the alien hybrid the knife is supposed cut through the nano armor?
« Last Edit: April 25, 2011, 02:16:09 pm by LuckyLindy »

Offline Kemlo

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Re: "FIX BAYONET"
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2011, 02:45:43 pm »
Then by your arguments, why even use the combat knife, or the alien hybrid knife?  They are devasting in this game at close range.  If they are fixed to the rifle, then you save the TU's and brutalize the alien. 
I don't have a problem with a devastating close range weapon, what I have a problem with is an all-powerful all-range weapon which is what a laser rifle with bayonet would become.  Side-arms would become pointless.  All you would ever need to equip your troops with would be laser rifles/heavy lasers with bayonets and maybe a grenade launcher. Tactical variations would be reduced.  As for saving the TUs, part of the gameplay is ensuring that you have enough TUs to defend yourself when you walk around that corner.

While it may be more realistic, I don't see the benefits for the gameplay.


Offline Hertzila

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Re: "FIX BAYONET"
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2011, 03:02:33 pm »
I don't have a problem with a devastating close range weapon, what I have a problem with is an all-powerful all-range weapon which is what a laser rifle with bayonet would become.  Side-arms would become pointless.  All you would ever need to equip your troops with would be laser rifles/heavy lasers with bayonets and maybe a grenade launcher. Tactical variations would be reduced.  As for saving the TUs, part of the gameplay is ensuring that you have enough TUs to defend yourself when you walk around that corner.

While it may be more realistic, I don't see the benefits for the gameplay.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but bayonets aren't as effective as handheld melee weapons. Of course they're better than smashing with the stock but overall you're just going to turn the short rifle into a very short spear and spears are bad in actual melee. An actual bladed weapon will beat it.
Also who's to say they would be fit to heavy lasers? ARs are a natural choice but heavy weapons would be strange IMO.

I think bayonets would be a good weapon attachment choice should a modification and attachment system ever be implemented. Lower damage-to-TU ratio than normal melee weapons but still excellent at close range combat.

Offline LuckyLindy

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Re: "FIX BAYONET"
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2011, 04:47:38 pm »
"Correct me if I'm wrong, but bayonets aren't as effective as handheld melee weapons."

They are more effective than handheld melee weapons because you have an advantave of a moment arm (physics) and can put more distance between you and your attacker/target.  The weapon (rifle) becomes a defense and the ability to parry agianst another melee weapon wielder.  Of course this assumes you are not being shot at...then it is worthless.  (Brings up the jokes about someone bringing a knife to a gunfight.)  But against another foe with a melee weapon, it becomes who has the longest reach to the point of a previous poster point mentioned about being a spear. 

18th Century heavily relies on the bayonet to instill fear moreso than any other weapon on the field.  However bayoneted muskets were a bit long compare to anyone wielding a saber or cutlass who would parry, step inside and dispatch their victim.  The morale in the game should actively reflect from both sides that when the melee weapons are used, others on the opposing side should lose morale points when they see a team mate cut down.

Again, this is my opinion, a good coversation, and good rhetoric.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2011, 04:50:15 pm by LuckyLindy »

Offline Quester

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Re: "FIX BAYONET"
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2011, 03:13:09 am »
I am a history major and have studied primarrily American Modern Military history and I can come up with two instances where the bayonet was used in its propper combat role.  The first was in Operation Overload, LTCol Cole's Charge up Causeway Four into the occupied town of Carentan, France.  First and ONLY time my grandfather, a WW2 Eagle heard the command from his officers, FIX BAYONETS!  The second was in the darkest days of the Korean War.  I only remember that one from a vet that told me when they went back to retake the ground one of the frozen enemy dead had a toe tag on him as well as a bayonet in his chest with the tag reading "courtisy of I company."

Now, to address the amour problem.  US Marines, Army, and other combat forces are taught,, correct me here if I am wrong, please, to aim for vital points on the body.  These would be the chest, head, throat, and legs.  Heck, even on an ortnock, a buttstroke to his kneecap is gonna put him down.  Somethign that damned big has alot fo weight on those two legs, and, with it being a joint it will be vulnerable to being stabbed or out and out clubbed. 

Offline Prinegon

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Re: "FIX BAYONET"
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2011, 07:07:26 am »
A Bayonette would be more effective than a combat knife. It has a greater reach and a greater parry value. It would be a two handed weapon and would therefore, since you can use your momentum (and/or weight) ad advantage, have a greater penetrability.

But I don't know if a Bayonette would be usable on every modern rifle, since fighting with it would damage the rifle itself. I don't talk about the barrel to get misjudged, but one hit on the lenses and you couldn't aim with a laser rifle at all. So I don't think a Bayonette would find it's use on a modern weapon anymore.

Offline Quester

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Re: "FIX BAYONET"
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2011, 10:02:15 pm »
You got a point there.  With an energy based weapon, I am goign to agree there with you on the bayonet being useless, becasue fo the delicate lenses and the like.  But on a solid state assault rifle (AKA m-16 types) the bayonet will be nice.  But, If I gotta get that close, they are too damned close, and, I am already dead.  When I talked to the Old Man about the charge, he said the biggest reason why they did it was becasue they needed to move fast and hit hard.  Not did in and fight.  They needed over the Causeway at all costs, even if it meant to charge and take the German at knifepoint.

Offline LuckyLindy

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Re: "FIX BAYONET"
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2011, 03:31:55 pm »
Yes, all of the new lenses and items that go on the new rails systems of the M16 variant, (what is it the A3?) would definitely get mangled.  I concede that.

Unless combat training this last decade has changed, Quester refers to the bayonet training during basic training (BCT) that is only sufficient enough to get you killed, absolutely.  While I was with the 82nd Airborne Div and at a little bit at Ranger School, we had more "advanced" training that was more geared toward small unit tactics and my favorite was the company live fire engagements and impact area advance where live fire was actually drop in front of you (I was a forward observer, 13F1V).  Some of the training included bayonet drills and the famous pugle sticks where the weapon and boyonet was taught to a greater extent than that of BCT, with people who sucked at it given extra training.  Don't get me wrong, the use of a bayonet is for crowd or POW control, a weapon of last resort and the British have used them in both the Gulf Wars and Afghanistan (I believe the primary kinetic weapon here in this is the Austrian Steyr (?) and I do not know whether or not it even has a bayonet lug.

I was shocked, however, when I saw that the Army stopped teaching bayonet drills in 2010.  I asked a buddy of mine in the Army (LTC) about it and apparently only infantry advanced training (AIT/BCT) teaches it and he complained about the quality of new recruits.  Interestingly enough, the Marines still teach the bayonet and a type of judo martial arts with belt color denoting hand-to-hand rank. 

Offline TrashMan

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Re: "FIX BAYONET"
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2011, 06:34:24 pm »
I don't have a problem with a devastating close range weapon, what I have a problem with is an all-powerful all-range weapon which is what a laser rifle with bayonet would become.  Side-arms would become pointless.  All you would ever need to equip your troops with would be laser rifles/heavy lasers with bayonets and maybe a grenade launcher. Tactical variations would be reduced.  As for saving the TUs, part of the gameplay is ensuring that you have enough TUs to defend yourself when you walk around that corner.

While it may be more realistic, I don't see the benefits for the gameplay.

But hte knife (that you attach to the rifle) IS a sidearm. How does it become pointless? You still carry it into battle, you still have to buy it.
The only difference is that you attach it to a rifle and swing it that way.

Offline jerm

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Re: "FIX BAYONET"
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2011, 07:28:00 am »
I think Kemlo meant to say, while the idea sounds cool, it would not contribute much to gameplay and not really worth the hassle to code in. I mean, if you REALLY want to emphasize such realism, why not just code in an extra attack for all ranged weapons? Rifle Bash > 8 TU. Or Pistol Whip > 6 TU. Heck, unarmed agents should be able to Punch > 5 TU, Kick > 7 TU, Head Butt > 8 TU, Jujitsu > 10 TU, Body Slam > 12 TU. List goes on and on.

Then you get into issues of scalability and upgrades. Then it won't be long before we see chainsaw rifles ALA Gears of War.