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Author Topic: Re: Plasma and the Nitpickers  (Read 10310 times)

Offline zapkitty

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Re: Plasma and the Nitpickers
« on: February 13, 2010, 03:30:05 am »
I've been fiddling a bit with UFO:AI off and on for some time now and I noted the extensive discussions on plasma weapons in the forums... so here I am to offer my two cents and perhaps move the ball forward a couple of yards...

... or perhaps not. You all can judge if it's something worth working with ;)

I improvised an alternative explanation for the weapons where I tried to honor the original design,  explained weapon effects sans using actual plasma and also tied the weapon to known alien techniques- in this case as a first glimpse into alien materials and nanotech. Now, nano is always suspect as a deus ex machina but I tried to keep it to a minimum (considering what's done with it later) and I also attempted to forestall for the moment the inevitable cries for a plasma flamethrower... while still enabling the plasma grenade and grenade launcher.  And giving the "plasma" substitute material inherent engineered properties might save considerable paw-waving explanation down the road.

It's not offered as a "scientific" explanation, but rather as a way to bypass the plasma minefield while maintaining story and game continuity.

(hmmm... plasma minefield...)

The following is the pseudo-briefing I wrote up for my own use just for fun. I know that offering such is not promoted here as the actual writers have to coordinate and rewrite everything themselves anyway, but I'm dropping it in merely to save time.

And indeed if anyone can fold, spindle or mutilate any of this wonkery into anything usable please feel free to do so :)

[begin ersatz text]
deleted....
[end ersatz text]

Edit: Deleted the "briefing" and have posted a better and easier to read version downthread.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2010, 01:22:26 pm by zapkitty »

Offline Hertzila

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Re: Plasma and the Nitpickers
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2010, 07:01:59 pm »
I don't really understand the point of switching plasma for CNT-goo. IMO plasma doesn't have any problems in its science. And what discussions are you talking about? About the plasma weaponry most are about its balance compared to other weaponry instead of its science. Have I missed something?

Plasmathrower won't happen since keeping plasma together is extremely hard and the aliens actually have to enclose theirs inside a heat-resistant plastic ball to keep it together. Unlike the liquid/gas fuel of flamethrower, plasma will just expand everywhere, possibly killing the user too. Raising its speed helps but not nearly enough for it to be effective in the flamethrowers range. A two meter long gun with the effective range of three meters is not a good idea. If you do want to hit something hard in that range, plasma blade is a better idea.


Ps. Welcome to the forums! Hopefully I didn't scare you off already...

Offline zapkitty

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Re: Plasma and the Nitpickers
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2010, 07:54:17 pm »
I don't really understand the point of switching plasma for CNT-goo.

The "goo" is actually a precursor to the ubiquitous alien materials researched later in the game. The  material has been heated to a fluid state and then some. Google "superheated". The stuff is on the edge of having... interesting... things happen and impact with a target sets it off. The CNTs are merely used in the firing process and do not form part of the actual "plasma bolt."

Quote from: Hertzila
IMO plasma doesn't have any problems in its science. And what discussions are you talking about? About the plasma weaponry most are about its balance compared to other weaponry instead of its science. Have I missed something?

Well, there is the problem that the plasma weapons as described simply cannot work.

And I was referring to discussions such as this one where the problem is hashed out in detail:
http://ufoai.ninex.info/forum/index.php?topic=1600.0

The devs were seeking a solution then and from my point of view there's no time like the present to offer a possibility.... ;)

Quote from: Hertzila
Plasmathrower won't happen since keeping plasma together is extremely hard and the aliens actually have to enclose theirs inside a heat-resistant plastic ball to keep it together. Unlike the liquid/gas fuel of flamethrower, plasma will just expand everywhere, possibly killing the user too. Raising its speed helps but not nearly enough for it to be effective in the flamethrowers range. A two meter long gun with the effective range of three meters is not a good idea. If you do want to hit something hard in that range, plasma blade is a better idea.

Well, since the plasma weapons actually cannot work either for the very same reasons it is follows that offering a possible solution will undoubtedly inspire people to apply the new mode of operation to other weapons... such as flamethrowers :)

Thus my explanation gives the devs leeway to forestall that application until later in the game. Then perhaps a "plasma" flamer of the new mode can be useful as a way to give raw recruits effective combat experience clearing out alien weed patches in the front yard while more experienced troops deal with the cyborg ortnoks and their new antiparticle cannons...

Quote from: Hertzila
Ps. Welcome to the forums! Hopefully I didn't scare you off already...

Thank you, and no offense taken... it's been about 30 years since I fretted about things like that ;)

edit: a few typos... but probably not all...
« Last Edit: February 13, 2010, 11:19:04 pm by zapkitty »

Offline Hertzila

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Re: Plasma and the Nitpickers
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2010, 12:13:06 am »
Well, there is the problem that the plasma weapons as described simply cannot work.

And I was referring to discussions such as this one where the problem is hashed out in detail:
http://ufoai.ninex.info/forum/index.php?topic=1600.0

The devs were seeking a solution then and from my point of view there's no time like the present to offer a possibility.... ;)
I haven't been around here for long enough to see that on the first page. And I have not digged for that.
All right, I admit it, that plastic is pretty incredible and would make for a great ablative armor against flamer and lasers. However, the idea that the "plastic" is actually superconductive material at room temperatures (or higher) would fit well and require minimum rewrite which is important since UFO:AI is pretty far in developement.

In other words, your bolt material is something that can be formed from simple goo, stored inside a magazine, into solid stuff that is then melted and fired. While melted it glows blue and the speed gives it a round shape. And when hitting, it splashes like liquid and causes severe burns and a good kinetic punch. That about right? Your "research report" is hard to read IMO.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2010, 12:35:40 am by Hertzila »

Offline zapkitty

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Re: Plasma and the Nitpickers
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2010, 03:54:25 am »
Quote from: Hertzila
Your "research report" is hard to read IMO.

Yeah, I get what you mean.... the "briefing" is actually a condensed list of idea stubs and talking points that I dashed off in a story format and, months later, it's turned out to actually be rather dense and obtuse to innocent bystanders.

The core of my idea was to reproduce the effects of the weapon as it exists in the game and are described in the story with a much simpler implementation. I say game *and* story because the two are a bit divergent at the moment and grow more amd less so as work progresses.

And this addresses another concern: the devs have often indicated that they're going to be working and reworking this stuff anyways... so might as well offer a plasma fix now for when they get around to the subject again.

A more considered rewrite is needed and I will drop the "report" motif and give a list of proper options.

Done...

Plasma and the Game

Plasma weapons, long a staple of SF military stories, actually would not work in any of the variety of ways that text and visual media have depicted.
 
Plasma is very energetic and by definition will expand very rapidly and as the plasma supplied by even industrial plasma burners and cutters is very tenuous it could not travel far without completely dispersing. In an atmosphere the effect is much worse as collisions with air molecules would immediately drain the plasma of its energy and thus revert it to normal matter.

So while actual plasma can indeed have very profound effects on ordinary matter these effects are applied by devices or natural forces (such as lightning) that constantly replenish the plasma at point-blank range from the target.

The classic SF description of a plasma hand weapon would require a very, very dense high-energy plasma somewhere between the plasma described above and the kind of plasma not often found outside of stars or detonating nuclear weapons... extreme heat and severe recoil would be the result and when that plasma hit an atmosphere all that energy would promptly be deposited in the air right in front of the weapon.

Not good.
 
These problems have been known for decades, actually. The original Traveller SF roleplaying game tried to get around them by having their (admittedly much more boisterous) plasma weapons use a boremounted laser to punch a hole through the air to channel the plasma while requiring the troop firing the weapon to be wearing powered armor to handle the heat and recoil... and it still wouldn't have worked.

The current plasma weapon concept in UFO:AI tried to steer around all this by postulating a temporary plastic shell that would protect the plasma en route to the target. Unfortunately this means that a similar material would make an excellent ablative armor against that same plasma.

The latest workaround to the problem that has been offered is having the shell material actually be a high-temperature superconductor that contains the plasma within magnetic shields without touching it... and thus not requiring that the shell be strong enough to withstand contact with the plasma.

This concept gets us further along but invokes problems of its own.

One is that when the sphere impacts the target only a small portion of the plasma will interact with the target while the rest deposits its energy in the air in front of the target. And even that intense of a plasma, say it's a hydrogen plasma contained in the volume of a six inch sphere, even that cannot dump enough energy to the air to generate the weapons effects described in-game.

Another problem is that this superconducting magnetic sphere will definitely interact with its environment... and not in ways that are conducive to traveling far or even hitting the target. Magnetic, electromagnetic, electric and electrostatic fields will interact with the sphere... and surely those pesky humans will put that to use in their defenses.

You can change the conditions somewhat to make the plasma more effective, of course. Making  it denser, hotter, possibly of a different element and making the containment sphere stronger to match. But since you're starting from the choice of plasma as a weapon then you're starting from a selection that just makes a poor projectile weapon. By the time you get to where you want to be weapon effects-wise you are essentially firing a blob of extremely superheated goo that must be protected from the atmosphere by magnetic shields that would have to be at least several tesla in strength.

And even one tesla is a LOT of magnetic field. What happens when that sphere passes by a steel-framed building or over railroad tracks or under high-tension power lines? Nothing good. And don't forget gravity losses. And again, it won't take long for humans to notice all this and begin rigging countermeasures of their own.

Barring something new being introduced it would seem that plasma just is too much trouble to make work in a plausible manner for the desired effects.

The core of my idea here is not to just toss out the concept but instead to reproduce the weapon and the effects of the weapon as they exist in the game and are described in the story... but with a much simpler implementation.

Since the weapon effects actually resemble the combination of a blowtorch on steroids and a cranked-up flamethrower, all somehow projected over a distance, the simplest solution might be to have a non-plasma substance cross the distance and cause the desired effects.

Such a substance would be difficult for human technology to currently implement but the aliens have a ready-made concept that can be adapted: the 'alien materials' that compose their ships.

But it's a bit too early in-game to introduce those materials so we introduce instead a subclass of the materials that is tailored to produce the weapon effects but does not allow humans to immediately begin churning out nanocomposite armor and alien aircraft plating.

One limitation is that without being enclosed in an appropriate container with a power source these materials would promptly decompose into nanoparticles of their constituent elements... and thus become useless.

So alien materials that do not decompose, such as those in UFO hulls, would be a later and more advanced research subject.

So... what the device would actually fire starts out as a carefully engineered pellet of dense synthetic compounds hitherto unknown to humans. 

The pellet is stored in a magazine that has a power source (one heck of a remarkably compact power source, actually, but that comes out a bit later) which feeds a mechanism that prevents the pellet from decomposing.

The pellet is moved into the firing mechanism, which also contains antidecomposition gear. The heating and firing effects require that the pellet not be in contact with the weapon while it is being primed and fired so the pellet needs to be suspended in the firing mechanism.

The compounds are not particularly magnetic so they can't be levitated that way. Microscopic jets of carbon nanotube particles can do this and the CNT can survive the environment long enough to be effective.  CNT particles are already known to humans and thus this use does not affect gameplay.

And, not coincidentally, all this stuff so far royally jams up flamethrower engineering :)

So the pellet is suspended while it is heated to thousands of degrees centigrade. The exact temperature depends on the firing settings of the weapon but the exterior of the pellet never achieves plasma temperatures and instead becomes nearly fluid while the interior becomes even hotter.

When the pellet is ready to fire a curtain of CNTs is sprayed behind the heated mass and then the CNTs in the curtain, and incidentally the  CNTs in the supporting jets, are rapidly accelerated forward by the weapon via magnetic and electrostatic fields generated between the two "prongs".

The nanotubes impact the mass and transfer their kinetic energy into it. The exterior of the mass then becomes a fluid while the core of the mass expands and tries to vaporize but can't quite get there. But the pellet does swell into an orb and that orb is moving.  Fast.

A fast-moving superheated orb of fluid in that it would vaporize itself if not for the carefully engineered alien materials effects holding it together. (still van der waals forces?)

A fast-moving orb of fluid that glows blue because it has a core that is beyond white-hot.

And thus is formed the "bolt" as seen on PC monitors everywhere.

The CNTs are either dispersed by air or destroyed by contact with the bolt. This means that the bolts cannot be easily deflected by the same means that launched them.

An added effect is that at close range the propelling CNTs can cause nasty "powder burns" to a target, increasing the damage.

Upon impact the sphere finally gives way and stuff is flying everywhere. The various compounds in the bolt have been engineered to have a variety of effects including penetration, explosion and enhanced splash effects. And it's hot enough to burn through armor.

And the troops still call it plasma...

Edit: tried to make it into a proper proposal and appended it here.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2010, 01:25:43 pm by zapkitty »

Offline zapkitty

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Re: Plasma and the Nitpickers
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2010, 08:06:05 pm »
Now with my idea (hopefully) more clearly defined in the post above let's see how plug and play it really is....

A "plasma" hand grenade would essentially be a small single-shot version of the pistol sans the propelling mechanisms and with a slightly different seed pellet. The pellet would have a slight magnetic component and would be engineered for explosive and splash effects.

The grenade is activated, starting the countdown. The pellet is levitated in the firing mechanism, and heating begins. At the proper time a spring mechanism kicks the grenade about a meter into the air. The battery in the grenade pours its energy into the pellet, in this case pushing the mass beyond fluid and into the detonation phase. Hilarity ensues.

Perhaps a cut scene would show the introduction of the new weapon with the grenade bouncing in among a group of Phalanx troops in slow motion, kicking itself upwards, the grenade casing swelling, splitting and splintering to reveal an all-too-familiar blue-glowing orb, and a very brief moment of shocked recognition on the faces of the troops just before the screen whites out...

Would that cover for the grenade? The one for the grenade launcher would still just be a smaller version, of course.

That leaves the plasma blade as the actual plasma weapon in the game. It would work pretty much as-is just as long as the "plasma particles bouncing around in the armor" stuff is taken out of the description. It would be a cutting torch from hell clamped to the armor and with no off switch for the brief instant the target survives.

Okay, done for now... I think ;)

Please take this stuff apart and see if it works for the game.

Offline Hertzila

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Re: Plasma and the Nitpickers
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2010, 06:19:41 pm »
Why does your "plasma" need all those special compounds? Why not just a simple material made of one compound that burns through armor and delivers the kinetic punch?

Also, does the plasma grenade really require the new stuff? I mean doesn't the fast expansion rate of plasma actually help the grenade do what it is supposed to do? Or am I wrong yet again?

Ps. Have you thought of any name for "plasma"? Would make it easier to refer to it.

Offline zapkitty

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Re: Plasma and the Nitpickers
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2010, 12:12:32 pm »
Sorry, been chasing undead ufos ;)

Alien materials effects: will even a dense fast-moving compound splash on its own the way plasma is supposed to? I figured it would need a little help in spreading the joy, especially with things like the "ball" setting of the plasma blaster.

As for grenades, our explosive grenades have a casualty radius of about 15 meters and a kill radius of 5. They can do this because they throw shrapnel. The alien grenade effects are supposed to be 50% larger and with no shrapnel. There's simply no way that a symmetrical plasma field dense enough to have the desired weapon effects is going to get that far in the atmosphere on its own unless it was generated by something so powerful that its action would overshadow the plasma effects anyway.

Plasma: not a good projectile weapon.
(That one DARPA project for a plasma antiaircraft weapon notwithstanding... they'd hoped to get small plasma packets accelerated to OMFG speeds and get them to the target before dispersal. As of the last report things were not looking good at the project.)

As for what to call the stuff, I'd leave that to the writer. The point here is that the soldiers call it plasma because SF portrayals of plasma would be the closest thing to the actual weapon effects that the soldiers are familiar with.

The aliens might well refer to it as "Non-Hivemind Organic Unit Elimination Compound C57D"


Offline Sgt. Hatter

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Re: Plasma and the Nitpickers
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2010, 04:43:18 pm »
So, lemme see if I can construct a diagram to explain your idea visually, zapkitty...



Is this correct?  Did I miss any details?

Offline zapkitty

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Re: Plasma and the Nitpickers
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2010, 10:26:20 pm »
So, lemme see if I can construct a diagram to explain your idea visually, zapkitty...
Is this correct?  Did I miss any details?

I don't see much nowadays and it took me a while to make out your drawings and text but from what I gather apparently my clarification needs a clarification :)

So, let's simplify:

Forget carbon nanotubes. CNTs were just a paw-waving excuse to avoid having plasma flamethrowers directly result from deciphering the alien plasma gun. If the devs want to prevent that they can wave their paws as vigorously as I can :)

Same goes for the decomposing ammunition.

What's left?

A layered pellet of dense alien compounds. The layers are the outer shell, the "plasma" substitute, and a core that will expand explosively when the projectile impacts.

There is no battery in the pellets. As with the current in-game plasma weapons the battery is in the magazine along with the pellets.

In the amazingly simplified drawing below:

1: The weapon with its grip to the right
2: The magazine, which contains....
3: .... the battery and...
4: .... the pellets.
5: The firing mechanism which heats and primes a pellet.
6: The primed pellet being violently yanked to the left by the propelling mechanisms contained in the two "prongs" of the weapon. This acceleration further heats the pellet to the brink.
It expands. The only thing holding the swollen orb together is the nanoengineered surface tension properties of the now-liquid outer shell.

And then it hits somebody and the volatile core material says "enough is enough"...

.... did that make sense?


Offline Sgt. Hatter

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Re: Plasma and the Nitpickers
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2010, 08:09:35 am »
I think I get it now.  So the basic principle is that this weapon is a nanoengineered alien water balloon containing superheated alien material that bursts on contact.  Seems to work okay.

That just leaves the question of fire modes.  Particularly the "Ball" mode on the plasma blaster.  Is this done by adjusting the composition of the core material?  Something about the shell?  Or is there some other mechanism that I'm not aware of?

Offline zapkitty

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Re: Plasma and the Nitpickers
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2010, 10:51:23 am »
I think I get it now.  So the basic principle is that this weapon is a nanoengineered alien water balloon containing superheated alien material that bursts on contact.  Seems to work okay.

Yep... or a somewhat more dignified analogy would be to the heated shot that was once fired from blackpowder cannon :)

I was going to add a fancier armor-piercing configuration to the core but that's overkill... the plasma-substitute would just burn through the armor, with the "plasma" trapped between the detonating core and the armor getting extra impetus in that direction.

Quote from: Sgt. Hatter
That just leaves the question of fire modes.  Particularly the "Ball" mode on the plasma blaster.  Is this done by adjusting the composition of the core material?  Something about the shell?  Or is there some other mechanism that I'm not aware of?

Well, as the "Ball" mode uses 10 rounds of ammo per shot I'd suggest we take it literally... 10 pellets are heated in the firing mechanism and fused into one humongous projectile, primed and tossed at the target where the 10 bundled cores go off at once. The weapon's certainly big enough for that.

Offline Sgt. Hatter

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Re: Plasma and the Nitpickers
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2010, 12:02:41 pm »
Well, as the "Ball" mode uses 10 rounds of ammo per shot I'd suggest we take it literally... 10 pellets are heated in the firing mechanism and fused into one humongous projectile, primed and tossed at the target where the 10 bundled cores go off at once. The weapon's certainly big enough for that.

Ah, that's right.  I'd forgotten about the ammo usage of the Ball mode, and indeed the Plasma Blaster is certainly big enough.  In fact, if you notice, its "jaws" are constructed differently than those of the Rifle and Pistol; they seem hinged, which would theoretically let them open wider to accomodate the larger projectile.

EDIT: Okay, taking a look at the Plasma Blaster more closely, the jaws aren't hinged like I thought.


Top: the Plasma Blaster.  Bottom: the Plasma Rifle.

Still, wouldn't take much texture alteration to make them look like they were.  If this idea were accepted, I might be convinced to make the necessary adjustments, if nobody would mind me doing so.

« Last Edit: March 07, 2010, 01:24:25 pm by Sgt. Hatter »

Offline homunculus

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Re: Plasma and the Nitpickers
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2010, 02:00:27 am »
the plastic casing etc reduces the coolness factor imho.
why not just say the plasma holds itself together like ball lightning, and worry about the reasoning when the real mechanism of ball lightning is discovered.

Offline zapkitty

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Re: Plasma and the Nitpickers
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2010, 03:01:35 am »
the plastic casing etc reduces the coolness factor imho.
why not just say the plasma holds itself together like ball lightning, and worry about the reasoning when the real mechanism of ball lightning is discovered.

Because the ball lightning explanation falls apart when you start treating the plasma as a projectile. Plasma is both tenuous and very energetic and  trying to force it through the air at any speed for any distance would be like trying to ram a helium balloon through a brick wall... i.e. it can theoretically be done but the forces involved would be kinda insane and the effects of those forces would dwarf any actual damage done by the plasma.

If the plasmoid explanation for ball lightning holds up it gets around this because the theory (and the relatively few observations) do not describe the balls as acting as projectiles.

And the plasmoid hypothesis indicates that actual damage comes from a charge carried by the plasmoid structure, and not much from the plasma itself.... and that charge is presumed to be lightning-related.

That's why ball lightning doesn't make good plasma ammo :)