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Author Topic: Why is the "saved game during combat" thread locked?  (Read 26101 times)

Offline Destructavator

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Re: Why is the "saved game during combat" thread locked?
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2009, 04:31:42 am »
Offtopic, but quick question, Are all the .ufo files generated manually?  Does UFO Radiant create or edit them?

Yes. No.

The .ufo files can be opened, changed, and re-saved with any common text editor - including notepad or wordpad on Windows.  Personally I prefer wordpad, as it formats the lines of data better to make it easier to read.

They get updated with SVN revisions sometimes, when things get re-balanced or the code reads them differently.

Radiant doesn't use them as far as I know.

odie

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Re: Why is the "saved game during combat" thread locked?
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2009, 05:39:51 am »
Odie,
Thank you for your thoughtful and respectful response.

As I said, my gaming experience goes back to days before PC's even existed. I was in Okinawa in late 1971 on R&R from Vietnam when I saw a strange looking machine in a bar in Koza. I was called Pong and was being tested by a company called Atari. After waiting a considerable amount of time,  because it was extremely popular,  I was able to play it and became immediately hooked. It had just been delivered a couple of days earlier. I had been a board game player for many years, but this, this was something unique. So, I can say confidently that I am one of the first hundred or so Americans to EVER play any video game at any time. And I have been playing them since the introduction of the Atari VCS later known as the 2600. I've had computers of every kind including the Timex Sinclair, Commodore Vic 20, Atari 400, Atari 800XKL, Amiga 500 and 2500, one old classic one piece Mac, and PC's dating back to the Compaq 8088 portable which I still have. It has a 10MB hard drive and uses 2 5 1/4" floppy drives with Dos 3.3. and still boots BTW...so much for the Y2K bug. As you can probably guess, I'm in my late 50's and retired.

There are two sides to this issue. Those that like the idea of a battlescape save and those that think the game is better without it. But actually, that's only one side, because those who don't like it, don't have to use it. They can play ironman if they want. And that's the nature of the right to choice. And that's what the developers are depriving us of as players. The right to choose how we want to play. In some games, like Tetris, or video oriented games that's not a big issue, But in a turn-based strategy game where every move could result in losing a squad or a couple of players you've taken time to develop, it becomes important.
 
I've read other comments where the developers decided they wanted you to have to do things a certain way..lose players you become attached to, operate under a handicap. It's their game, they have the right to impose whatever limitations they want on the game. But frankly, I'm not going to subject myself to being placed in a gamer's box, so i guess I'm just going to have to look elsewhere for my entertainment. Good luck to everyone.

But I'm just going to say one thing..this IS a free, open source game, but were it commercial and the developers had this attitude, it would fail miserably.

Feel free to lock this thread also. I won't be returning to respond to any comments.


Branes,

No prob. :D Well, i would say, we have to give the designers of this game much, if not TONS of credits for coming up with this incredible game. Its based on DOOM engine (IIRC, correct if wrong) and its an incredible work.

If u have played other 4x strategy, u prob heard of another open source called Battle for Wesnoth. In the same way, it was much simpler in design and programming, still, they allow saves for own player turn (at start only) and none (actually there's a way but i am not giving it away) during enemies turn. Ppl complain that there should be save for every turn including enemies and stuff......

But i like the way the designers insisted on their designs - which limits the way and style of play, hence forcing strategies to be re-thinked and sorts.

Its also liken to why i dun like arcades FPS so much, since u cannot save while in mission; This also reminds me of an incredible old-time arcade, called Super Marios (nos 1, which has basic missions and 200+ secret under water missions......). U cannot save, u have to complete it in one go, and nobody's complaining tat u cannot save Super mario. Why? Lol. I leave tat room for thinking.

I believe, now coming back to UFOAI, its good to have saves outside battlescapes; its sad that there is no saves during battlescapes. But its what make this game unique, and makes u really think hard and plan before throwing tat one grenade so close, or risking close combat stunning....... Its a strategy which reminds me of another game called Operation Flashpoint, where u r soldier, running FPS, and u need complete a mission, and u make 1 silly / stupid / mistake, and voila - pls retry the game again.

Is anyone complaining Ops flashpoint? Yes. Does that stopped it from being the best game of the year with 2 full add on packs with tons more campaigns? No. Haha.

I still hope Branes, u enjoy the game with these limitations, but look on the bright side. When i was on officer's course, there is this saying:

"There are only 2 types of things / situations in the world:
1) Things within your control
2) Things beyond your control

If 1), then do what u can to make things better. Contribute constructively and keep positiveness in sight.
If 2), then look for things tat are 1) and refer to point 1 earlier.
If 2), and insist on doing something to it..... then perhaps be advised u need TONS of endurance, persistance, a whole new group of ppl to help u or simply change the management.
*

Haha. Sounds good?

Offline geever

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Re: Why is the "saved game during combat" thread locked?
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2009, 11:10:28 am »
Its based on DOOM engine (IIRC, correct if wrong) and its an incredible work.

modified Quake2

-geever

Offline Tekky

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Re: Why is the "saved game during combat" thread locked?
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2009, 08:47:31 pm »
I don't understand why people keep whining about the battlescape save as if we're infringing on a basic human right. There are quite simply two reasons why it's not going to happen: we don't really want it and it's a coding nightmare. The first is an opinion we're not going to change our minds on, the second isn't even a matter of opinion.
So yeah, people can either live with the situation, or... not, I guess.
I can understand the second specified argument, namely that battlescape saving is not implemented for technical reasons ("coding nightmare"). However, I am unable to understand the first specified argument, namely that it is disallowed for design reasons. What would be wrong with the option of disallowing battlescape saving in the difficulty settings at the start of the game? This would satisfy everyone, because it would allow everyone to play the way they want to play.

I respect the developers' decision to not implement this feature for technical reasons. However, what I really can't understand is the fact that this thread in which this topic is being discussed has been locked, thereby preventing further discussion on this topic. Since this is a controversial topic and it will certainly remain controversial in the foreseeable future, it seems appropriate to me to allow this discussion to continue. Even if the developers no longer wish to take part in this discussion, such a discussion might inspire someone else to make an unofficial patch.

For the above reasons, I request that the previous thread be unlocked. Surely, it cannot be in the interest of anyone to censor the UFO:AI community.

Offline geever

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Re: Why is the "saved game during combat" thread locked?
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2009, 08:59:10 pm »
We don't need any more discussion about it. If you make a modification you can share it with other players in the User modifications forum.

-geever

Offline Tekky

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Re: Why is the "saved game during combat" thread locked?
« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2009, 10:08:53 pm »
We don't need any more discussion about it.
Yes, several official developers have stated this opinion. But is this a valid reason to forbid any further discussion about this topic, by locking the thread? Such censorship is disrespectful to the UFO:AI community, in my opinion. It is also counterproductive, as it prevents people from posting new ideas they have on this matter.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2009, 10:20:11 pm by Tekky »

Offline Destructavator

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Re: Why is the "saved game during combat" thread locked?
« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2009, 11:41:33 pm »
Yes, several official developers have stated this opinion. But is this a valid reason to forbid any further discussion about this topic, by locking the thread? Such censorship is disrespectful to the UFO:AI community, in my opinion. It is also counterproductive, as it prevents people from posting new ideas they have on this matter.

"New ideas" are really irrelevant - A final decision on the matter has already been made, it doesn't need to be discussed any more, it isn't "counterproductive" because it has already gotten to the end.  If you want to make a mod that does it, fine, but please don't pick at it anymore.

Offline Tekky

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Re: Why is the "saved game during combat" thread locked?
« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2009, 01:16:25 am »
"New ideas" are really irrelevant - A final decision on the matter has already been made, it doesn't need to be discussed any more, it isn't "counterproductive" because it has already gotten to the end.

I completely disagree. The "final decision" you are referencing was made by official developers and concerns only the official SVN repository. However, there may be other potential patch coders out there who would be interested in "new ideas" on this topic. Therefore, I cannot agree with your statement that such "new ideas" are "irrelevant".

For this reason, I continue to believe that the locking of the thread is counterproductive and against the spirit of open source.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2009, 01:20:57 am by Tekky »

Offline Thyranim

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Re: Why is the "saved game during combat" thread locked?
« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2009, 01:22:28 am »
I completely disagree. The "final decision" you are referencing was made by official developers and concerns only the official SVN repository. However, there may be other potential patch coders out there who would be interested in "new ideas" on this topic. Therefore, I cannot agree with your statement that such "new ideas" are "irrelevant".

and because of this you can open a thread in "user modifications" so that anyone able to do this can create a mod for the game so you are able to save during battlescape...

but a discussion in the official forums / threads won't do or change anything

so discussion about anything possible to create a "save during battle"-mod should be started / continued in the user-mod forum

Offline Destructavator

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Re: Why is the "saved game during combat" thread locked?
« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2009, 01:27:41 am »
I completely disagree. The "final decision" you are referencing was made by official developers and concerns only the official SVN repository. However, there may be other potential patch coders out there who would be interested in "new ideas" on this topic. Therefore, I cannot agree with your statement that such "new ideas" are "irrelevant".

For this reason, I continue to believe that the locking of the thread is counterproductive and against the spirit of open source.

Just because this project is open source doesn't mean the design game-plan is also open for anyone to come along and change whatever they want in the official blueprint - if that happened it would fall into a chaotic mess with everyone constantly changing things and that would be counter-productive.

There isn't any magical combination of words you can post to change our minds - Honestly, do you really think you can win this pointless argument?

As Thyranim - and many of the others here have said - If you want a mod, go for it, it can go in that section of the forum, but please stop pushing for it in the official release, it won't happen.

Offline Winter

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Re: Why is the "saved game during combat" thread locked?
« Reply #25 on: August 29, 2009, 01:59:41 am »
Blah blah blah BLAH . . . .

Surrealistik, I thought we told you to get out and don't come back.

Regards,
Winter

Offline gerald

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Re: Why is the "saved game during combat" thread locked?
« Reply #26 on: August 29, 2009, 03:16:12 am »
I can understand the second specified argument, namely that battlescape saving is not implemented for technical reasons ("coding nightmare"). However, I am unable to understand the first specified argument, namely that it is disallowed for design reasons. What would be wrong with the option of disallowing battlescape saving in the difficulty settings at the start of the game? This would satisfy everyone, because it would allow everyone to play the way they want to play.

I respect the developers' decision to not implement this feature for technical reasons. However, what I really can't understand is the fact that this thread in which this topic is being discussed has been locked, thereby preventing further discussion on this topic. Since this is a controversial topic and it will certainly remain controversial in the foreseeable future, it seems appropriate to me to allow this discussion to continue. Even if the developers no longer wish to take part in this discussion, such a discussion might inspire someone else to make an unofficial patch.

For the above reasons, I request that the previous thread be unlocked. Surely, it cannot be in the interest of anyone to censor the UFO:AI community.
well they work on that game and is their decision if for someone is too hard to play,should just play sumfin other.
about locked topic,devs said many times so that discuccion is useless so they already decided so why ppl still trying ? want more post on ur accounts lol? thing was said and as for me locking is understadable all got an patience limit .

Offline Tekky

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Re: Why is the "saved game during combat" thread locked?
« Reply #27 on: August 29, 2009, 11:45:30 am »
I think the main problem here is the layout of the UFO:AI forum.

Let's look for example at the OpenTTD project, which has very similar goals as UFO:AI, except that it is based on the game Transport Tycoon instead of XCOM. OpenTTD offers a sub-forum for suggestions, where anyone can write their ideas to improve the game and these ideas are then discussed. Of these ideas, only about 5% ever get implemented as a patch by an unofficial developer and probably less than 1% ever make it into the official SVN repository. Despite these very low chances of implementation, the OpenTTD suggestions forum is still a very pleasant place to exchange ideas with other players.

As a veteran user of this OpenTTD forum and its suggestions sub-forum, it is very hard for me to understand the policy of the UFO:AI forum in which threads with ideas that the developers don't agree with are locked and not to be further discussed by the players. Such a policy would be unimaginable on the OpenTTD suggestion forum, as this would cause 99% of all threads to be locked.

In OpenTTD, many important developments originated as ideas in the suggestion forum, which were then discussed. This discussion then inspired people to have additional, more refined ideas, which in turn inspired people to make unofficial patches that implement some of these ideas. These patches then inspired further ideas and patches, which eventually inspired official developers to include some of these patches in the official SVN repository or to make their own patches. All this inspiring and productive exchange of ideas would never have happened if the threads containing all the initial unrefined ideas had been locked.

It is not my intention to push the official developers to change their opinion on battlescape saves, especially since they have presented good reasons not to implement it. I also have no intention to write such a patch myself, at least not before the next stable version is released. My intention is rather to convince the forum moderators to change their policy regarding the suppression of ideas by locking threads, in order to allow a similar exchange of ideas as on the OpenTTD forums, as I have described above.

I fully understand that most developers don't want to constantly read new ideas regarding topics that they have already dismissed. Therefore, why not make an additional sub-forum for suggestions, as has been done on the OpenTTD forums? Wouldn't that be best for everyone?

After having been disappointed by Project Xenocide, I have come to the conclusion that UFO:AI is the most promising game based on XCOM. As a fan of the XCOM series, I have great interest in taking part in the UFO:AI community, as I have previously done with the OpenTTD project. So far, the only thing preventing me from actively taking part in the community are the reasons stated above, as I do not wish to take part in a community in which ideas cannot be exchanged freely.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2009, 11:50:20 am by Tekky »

Offline Thyranim

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Re: Why is the "saved game during combat" thread locked?
« Reply #28 on: August 29, 2009, 11:56:08 am »
make a suggestion of a feature, make a wish, ok
i think the least of all suggestions will be declined in the beginning.
so all and everyone can discuss in how to do this and if yes or no

but this save-wish is one, that will not ever be in the main-game
every other change or improvmenet or addition can be discussed with all pros and cons so that there is a solution at the end of the long discussion with which everyone can live with

only because of this "this will never be in the main game" someone should create a thread in the user-mod forum so anyone who wants this feature can discuss there who to do this.

as you mentioned, this would be an unofficial patch than, a mod

it's nothing else as in openttd, other than the fact that you have got the decision of never getting this inside the main game and so should continue the discussion in another forum

the orignial thread wouldn't have been locked if the discussion in the official discussion thread would have stopped and continued in the user-mod-forum


so continue any discussion here of what to do and what not to do is just a waste in time ;)


(hopefully it's still understandable?  ??? )

Offline Destructavator

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Re: Why is the "saved game during combat" thread locked?
« Reply #29 on: August 29, 2009, 02:11:04 pm »
Tekky, I'm not even sure what you're arguing for anymore - We've already answered your questions over and over again, yet you keep pushing and shoving the same requests for something that will *not* happen, simply re-phrased over and over again.  You've gotten your answers, we've explained our reasons, and if you don't like our answers or reasons, then simply put, tough shit.  If you disagree, then so be it, you're entitled to your own perspective but that doesn't mean you're going to win or that you're even right.

As stated - AGAIN - if you want a save-in-combat feature or discussion about it, you can discuss it in the modding section, as a mod and not for the official release.  That is the ONLY way, period, the end.

There isn't anything you can do - no combination of words after words you can continue to spew out that will change that, you're not going to win anything else, you won't see the whole development team suddenly give up and say "okay, you win and we'll do everything you're way, re-vamping everything how you want it..."  Trust me, it will NOT happen, now matter how many times you re-phrase your statements.

Further, by continuing to shove this down our throats you're proving to be quite a pain, and are becoming quite irritating. I'd advise you not to continue this, and unless you have anything actually NEW to say you may find this thread locked as well, for good reason.

If you want to join our community, fine, but contribute - Don't come here fighting us every step of the way.