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Author Topic: Essence of XCOM-UFO.  (Read 14065 times)

Offline nerf5000

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Re: Essence of XCOM-UFO.
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2009, 02:02:20 am »

Edit: DELETED
WHOOPS, looks like I somehow cross-posted here...
original here: http://ufoai.ninex.info/forum/index.php?topic=3751.msg27636#msg27636
« Last Edit: June 25, 2009, 02:18:05 am by nerf5000 »

Sirine

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Re: Essence of XCOM-UFO.
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2009, 03:54:00 am »
@nerf5000: I love the % system. It make me 'count' my steps... annoyed but true.
turn 45 degree -1 TU,
turn 90 degree -2 TU,
crouch -4 TU, standup after crouch -8 TU,
walk 1 tile......etc...  some "game experice" af how should a turn base works.

Most of the time... I'm having the below scenario.
-Opss.. shxxt, I miss 1 TU to throw that grenade...
-Opss.. bump into an alien room without enought TU to backoff.
-Opss.. wait at the door and get shot down next turn...
-Opss.. I only have 2 shot left... and there are 3 of them...and no-way to switch to grenade...not enought TU.
-Opss.. where the hack that shot come from? (Mostly counter at night mission.)
-Shxxt.. I shot it. It blows up. If I don't shot it, It shot at me next turn... I'm definitely dead...(==")
-Bump into a room full with alien. Burst Shot 3 hits... 3 alien reaction fire back 9 deadly hits!
-Try to throw a grenade... activate the grenade... open the door...Opps...get reaction shot, drop unconsious, next turn...Kabooooommm....

Offline nerf5000

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Re: Essence of XCOM-UFO.
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2009, 05:14:01 am »
Sirine:

Not sure how having percentages OR fixed TU for usage changes the scenario that you wrote down. In the end it works the same as you described since the soldier level doesn't change in mission. The difference is that at start of mission you have to check how much TUs every shot will take for all your soldiers, which doesn't add anything to the game at all and subtracts from immersion in my opinion.

Now if you have a soldier that has more TUs and can fire 3 times, instead of always 2 no matter what, you are tempted to send him to the front. But he's also your skilled veteran... that creates suspense and tactical choices! :)

Sirine

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Re: Essence of XCOM-UFO.
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2009, 05:51:18 am »
@nerf5000: erm.... sorry... not really get what you means...
Quote
how having percentages OR fixed TU for usage changes the scenario that you wrote down.In the end it works the same as you described since the soldier level doesn't change in mission.
For my undestanding:- you means, having fixed TU for firing and % for firing are the same in the above scenario.

Well, theoretically=yes, practically=No. Play the Xcom1 yourself, and you will know why.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2009, 06:28:55 am by Sirine »

Offline nerf5000

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Re: Essence of XCOM-UFO.
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2009, 06:21:09 am »
Ok now I don't get it, where below does it change based on % vs fixed TU usage for weapons?:

turn 45 degree -1 TU,

same, not a weapon

turn 90 degree -2 TU,

same, not a weapon

crouch -4 TU, standup after crouch -8 TU,

same, not a weapon

walk 1 tile......etc...  some "game experice" af how should a turn base works.

same, not a weapon

so far nothing changes
now assuming you know how many TUs it takes to fire (you checked at the begining) it continues to be the same exact experience in both cases


-Opss.. shxxt, I miss 1 TU to throw that grenade...

same assuming you are paying attention to how many TUs you have... doesn't matter if it takes 5 or 7 or 27TU to throw

-Opss.. bump into an alien room without enought TU to backoff.

same, you're not shooting in this scenario

-Opss.. wait at the door and get shot down next turn...

same, alien accuracy is not based on your weapons TU usage

-Opss.. I only have 2 shot left... and there are 3 of them...and no-way to switch to grenade...not enought TU.

same if you used up your TUs, however the one exception is if your super elite is in the front and can fire 3 times... chances are he won't get all three anyway and get shot in the face and there goes the super elite... so yeah, wouldn't do that

-Opss.. where the hack that shot come from? (Mostly counter at night mission.)

same, not dependent on TUs but LOS

-Shxxt.. I shot it. It blows up. If I don't shot it, It shot at me next turn... I'm definitely dead...(==")

same, not dependent on TUs whether the alien blows up or not

-Bump into a room full with alien. Burst Shot 3 hits... 3 alien reaction fire back 9 deadly hits!

same, not dependent on TUs (bad planning, you know they will shoot back so should have brought friends)

-Try to throw a grenade... activate the grenade... open the door...Opps...get reaction shot, drop unconsious, next turn...Kabooooommm....
same, not dependent on TUs but reaction fire (even if throw is 0Tu the guy is already unconscious)

therefore my reply:
none of these scenarios change based on using fixed TUs, except for introducing one rather cool tactical choice (send expensive unit to the front or not)

Sirine

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Re: Essence of XCOM-UFO.
« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2009, 07:20:25 am »
Quote
now assuming you know how many TUs it takes to fire (you checked at the begining) it continues to be the same exact experience in both cases
@nerf5000: -agree...

Well, theoretically=yes, practically=No.
Play the Xcom1 again, and you will know why. (you may download the game from Internet. Googling it out.)

I have no intention to change your [point of view]. Just try to explain how i feel about the game. The game create tight tension on TUs. and the tension of TUs, "keeps-in" the entire course of the mission.

|----------------|
|           @         |
|                       |
|                       |
|                       |
|------|   |------|
       X

X= Elite Soldier with 77 TUs, full.
@= Alien

I find the above situation ..."critical"... in xcom1. -feeling tension...
nerf5000 perhaps you would like to suggest a move/action to be taken? (Remember you are in Xcom1)
« Last Edit: June 25, 2009, 11:41:38 am by Sirine »

A Few Good Mutons

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Re: Essence of XCOM-UFO.
« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2009, 11:56:04 am »
Muttons:

It won't make the rifle fire faster, but the 'shot' is not only pulling the trigger it also models the aiming/heft of the weapon etc. (hence the different modes of fire use different amounts of TU, the speed of the rifle doesn't change) so, if we are modeling all of the above, experience would HAVE TO impact how fast I can bring to bear/aim/fire the said weapon whereas a % based system says that no matter how skilled you are with that weapon you will always fire it at the same speed as a rookie that just barely figured out how it works... this is completely disregarding the fact that some of these weapons can be complicated (alien guns!)

Sirine:
I played the first XCom and loved it, and the % system always annoyed me.

Long story short: I like the current system of fixed TUs for firemodes, scaling the TUs for soldiers not weapons is best
An aimed shot is an aimed shot.  The skill difference is shown in how accurate they are.  In the absence of the ability to spend more TUs to aim better (as in JA/JA2), all aimed shots are considered the same "speed".  And it's absurd to think a soldier wouldn't know how their rifle works.  Remember, your recruits aren't just random schmucks, they're military people.  They're not going to have just "barely figured out" how to shoot.

The TU system in UFO:AI is no more realistic (and arguably less fun) than X-COMs.  If you want one that's both realistic and fun to play with, take a look at the JA2 fan patch.

edit:  Also, the current system is still letting you fire more often based on raw speed.  That's like saying an Olympic runner should be able to fire faster than a grizzled veteran.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2009, 12:02:45 pm by A Few Good Mutons »

Sirine

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Re: Essence of XCOM-UFO.
« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2009, 02:07:10 pm »
@A Few Good Mutons: JA2...finish the game before... fun to play, but can't feel any 'tension' in the game. No reaction fire that are noticeable....  too much indestructable "things" in the game...

About the TUs... many people miss the essense of xcom...  is all about the feeling... how the game make you feel... (get one and try it out.) ;)

Please do not bring in any UFO:AI. It is not approprate in this thread...(this topic).

Offline keybounce

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Re: Essence of XCOM-UFO.
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2009, 04:58:22 am »
@nerf5000: -agree...

Well, theoretically=yes, practically=No.
Play the Xcom1 again, and you will know why. (you may download the game from Internet. Googling it out.)

I have no intention to change your [point of view]. Just try to explain how i feel about the game. The game create tight tension on TUs. and the tension of TUs, "keeps-in" the entire course of the mission.

|----------------|
|           @         |
|                       |
|                       |
|                       |
|------|   |------|
       X

X= Elite Soldier with 77 TUs, full.
@= Alien

I find the above situation ..."critical"... in xcom1. -feeling tension...
nerf5000 perhaps you would like to suggest a move/action to be taken? (Remember you are in Xcom1)
Lob in a grenade, and then get out of the blast area.

No? Ok. Toss a blaster bomb around the corner.

No? Gee. Will they move out? If so, reaction fire.
Can you move someone else around from another direction? If so, can you come in straight and fire "blind"?

Alright then, send in your rookie.

"Sacrificing minions. Is there any problem it can't solve?

Sirine

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Re: Essence of XCOM-UFO.
« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2009, 05:43:26 am »
@keybounce:- Well, I'm happy that you can 'Feel' the tension of this senario.

The purpose of the above senario, is to demonstrate, you have the 'game experiance' of, 'fear',' what should I do next', and 'plan' accordingly.

Most of the time, we will just walk in and kill the alien, which happends in lots of other series of xcom, and tactical games like JA2. But not in xcom1, 99% if you walk in that room, you will be receiving multiple reaction fire from the alien. And most of the time, they are not alone.

Try focus on the game play experience, what the game make you feel... that is the essense of xcom1.

Offline keybounce

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Re: Essence of XCOM-UFO.
« Reply #25 on: June 26, 2009, 08:22:32 am »
Exactly. Send in the rookies, to drain the reaction fire.

It works. It's not great. And yes, I did have that tension with XCom.

XCom is still in my top 5 games of all time. Heck, I played with getting qemu running just to play it again.

Offline slothlord

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Re: Essence of XCOM-UFO.
« Reply #26 on: June 26, 2009, 07:25:40 pm »
FEAR = Chryssalid

i still have memories of the first time i did a terror mission with these.  turn 1: get out, look around, cant see shit cuz its night (forgot electroflares).  turn 2-xx: kill snakemen. turn xx: AHHHHH!!! WTF!! *Slash* MAN DOWN! *Hack* MAN DOWN!. next turn: WHY WONT IT DIE???!! *rocket launcher* BOOM!!! WOOHOO!!!.  next turn: uhh, why do the civilians look funny? *laser rifle* *civilian splits open* OH SHIIIII----!! *TEAM LOST*

i hate those bastards...

odie

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Re: Essence of XCOM-UFO.
« Reply #27 on: June 26, 2009, 07:39:54 pm »
FEAR = Chryssalid

i still have memories of the first time i did a terror mission with these.  turn 1: get out, look around, cant see shit cuz its night (forgot electroflares).  turn 2-xx: kill snakemen. turn xx: AHHHHH!!! WTF!! *Slash* MAN DOWN! *Hack* MAN DOWN!. next turn: WHY WONT IT DIE???!! *rocket launcher* BOOM!!! WOOHOO!!!.  next turn: uhh, why do the civilians look funny? *laser rifle* *civilian splits open* OH SHIIIII----!! *TEAM LOST*

i hate those bastards...

LOL. Whoa, slothlord, u quite dramatic sia......

Though i did remember those Chryss, i did rmbr using something called psionic powers! I take over some silly greys or mutons, make em walk ard, and see chryss, shoot their arss off....

Indeed, where was it in these threads again...... psionic powers rox! But yar, totally unbalance the game IN OUR FAVOR at last. lol.

Offline homunculus

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Re: Essence of XCOM-UFO.
« Reply #28 on: July 01, 2009, 02:14:09 am »
I also think some of those things have basic usability issues. For example, as I recall Laser Squad Nemesis has simultaneous turns, but that was pretty ill-received by the public. I can also mention the Growlanser series, which uses gridless, interrupt-based real time combat. The combat is pretty annoying, and I prefer classic turns. Anyway, that's kind of off-topic.
LSN made me think that maybe it might have been better if turns were shorter, etc, and i can imagine how creating any such system is a challenge.
[...] Also, the current system is still letting you fire more often based on raw speed.  That's like saying an Olympic runner should be able to fire faster than a grizzled veteran.
yeah, and in my mind the little prime evil in ufo-ai is that speed becomes a super stat.
determines both time units and how many times you can shoot in ufo-ai (probably not the triggering of reaction fire).
if i was to suggest anything, i would suggest putting speed in the first place among stats, so that it would be more convenient to find the speed value when recruiting soldiers.
therefore, if i am not talking about realism i think the % based shooting of xcom was better for gameplay.
btw i liked jagged alliance aiming even more (if i don't count the sick case where there was just one bush between ivan and the opponent and i could use max aim and ivan shot the bush).

Sirine

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Re: Essence of XCOM-UFO.
« Reply #29 on: July 01, 2009, 03:59:20 am »
@homunculus:-
Again. Please do not bring in any UFO:AI. It is not approprate in this thread...(this topic).

However, I'll very please if you could just share some experience of yours about the XCom1. Very much appreciated.