Implementation of bases

[PsyWarrior]

Lo, UFOAI (NG? Is that an official suffix now?).

A question about bases: If my memory is working correctly, I seem to remember the first Dev team intending to have bases buildable on multiple levels, and I recall plans to have 3D bases as well (of course, you'd need that for defense missions but I got the impression it would be part of the construction / management part). I have no idea how this would work, or if it's even feasable in Q2.

How do you (the devs) see the FINAL (i.e. V1.0) base management interface? Will we see something very similar to the existing interface, or is it possible to build something a little more elaborate?

Obviously, I'd like a fancy-flashy 3D base building/management interface, but if it's impossible to implement then that's the way it is... Once we (the non-coding, graphically challenged community) have an idea of what's possible in the engine, we can start being useful by throwing in actually useful ideas  :roll:

-PsyWarrior

[Hoehrer]

Lo, UFOAI (NG? Is that an official suffix now?).

AFAIK, that's just the project title at sourceforge and was not intended to be the official name ... but i may be wrong

A question about bases: If my memory is working correctly, I seem to remember the first Dev team intending to have bases buildable on multiple levels, and I recall plans to have 3D bases as well (of course, you'd need that for defense missions but I got the impression it would be part of the construction / management part). I have no idea how this would work, or if it's even feasable in Q2.

Right now there are bitmaps used for construction of the base, but IIRC these images are generated from the existing 3D-Maps that are then used on base-attack. IMHO this the best way of doing it work-wise and gameplay-wise.

How do you (the devs) see the FINAL (i.e. V1.0) base management interface? Will we see something very similar to the existing interface, or is it possible to build something a little more elaborate?

Obviously, I'd like a fancy-flashy 3D base building/management interface, but if it's impossible to implement then that's the way it is... Once we (the non-coding, graphically challenged community) have an idea of what's possible in the engine, we can start being useful by throwing in actually useful ideas  :roll:

Since the devs now practically constist of everybody who want to participate i think i'm on the safe side to say we should jusrt start a bit of a brainstorming session on this.

I'm personally against a compelte base-management i 3D (what's the reason to display it in 3D?) ... or at least do not make this a high priority right now. Maybe for "UFO:AI Version 2.0" or something like that

The main things that need to be done are (ordered by how important i think they are):

• Research/Production
• Working interception + more crafts
• Equip aircrafts
• Transfer between bases
• Multiple levels for structures (i suggest ~2-4 not more. It would become rather complex otherwise)
• <insert things here that i've forgotten>
• ...
• even more gun fooder :twisted:

Werner

[BTAxis]

I think multiple base levels are not needed at all. I believe it would make base design needlessly complicated, and wouldn't add to the fun of base construction. But that's my opinion, and I may be alone in this.

Overlaid on the "todo" list above, there needs to be content. There's little point to construction and research if there's nothing to produce or develop. UFO:AI needs more weapons, enemies, scenario types, a research tree and a rudimentary storyline to devise the tech tree around. Then there's the need for a working soldier model, which I place before R&D.

[PsyWarrior]

EDIT: BTAxis, I'm about 50/50 on the multiple levels thing... see points further down.

Hokay... full blown discussion / brainstorming works for me... (forgive size of post)

The bitmaps do LOOK as if they were generated ingame, so that's probably the case.

Why 3D... There isn't a technical reason, from my perspective it's just an aesthetic thing. Why was C&C Generals in 3D as opposed to the standard isometric 2D? Probably because it looked good
I think it would be great to see your little minions (scientists, engineers, troops) running around the base, but I'm probably getting into the realms of fantasy here (and this IS only one part of the game in the end)...

So what do we really want from the base management screen?
*Dredges some ideas from old topic from memory*

There was a lot of talk about WHERE the bases were. The general consensus was that they were underground (Hence the elevator). Once concept I heard thrown about a lot was the idea of having different 'levels', similar to the battlescape. This would, of course, require a complete redesign of the base concept, which might be far too much effort (although the end result could be good).

I like the idea, but some structures would have to be made larger (considerably so - hangers should take up about a third of a floor), and certain restrictions would have to be placed - hangers on the top level, elevator in the same place on each floor.

Just as a concept of an advanced underground military base, it's fantastic. In gameplay terms, I just cannot decide if it would work. Since the only way to find out is to actually DO it, it's probably going to stay on the drawing board...

So, assuming a single-level (lets say 2D for now) design like the original UFO and TD2, here's some other ideas...

-I seem to remember the idea of random base events was quite popular (prisoners escape, lead defensive troops to incapacitate or eliminate them / experiment goes wrong, explosions, you have to pay for repairs / alien infiltration - not full blown attack / etc.)

-Security systems: Could have a complete discussion just about how this should be done. Single 'security rooms'? Possibility of installing 'upgrades' accross the whole base (CCTV for example - although what base wouldn't have this as standard anyway?) and so forth.

-'Building under construction' image - I assume this is planned... Would look better than a fully constructed room appearing when you go to construct something. Minor.

-Stores screen? (as per the original)

-Erm... some other stuff... I have to go back and play the original again to remember.

Apologies about the long, rambling post, I'll sort my ideas out and post coherently next time :roll:

-PsyW

[Hoehrer]

Disclaimer - Just in case: Nothing below is meant to start a flame war (me+english=weird). These are just my opinions on the development direction.

Ok, before you take apart all my comments (past and future) let me tell you my overall guidelines i use to specify what should be done first:

I really thing the firstmost thing to get done it the basic game-concept and thus a complete playable game. This include the basic base-management, combat/missions, research/produce, interceptions. Everything more than this is overkill for the first _real_ release of the game.

We don't _need_ more weapons (alien or not) to implement the basic research/production system. There are enough of this things there already. Don't get me wrong, i also want more, but getting a compeltly playable game out is my first priority. Adding content and artwork is below that. [Some may say KISS (keep it simple+stupip) to that, but it's a bit different ... nevermind.]

Same goes for new aliens, crafts, different types of missions and similar things.

Based on the same reasons i would say let's leave the base-display as is for now since it works (maybe a few bugfixes here and there). This is an interface-improvement, you just need to replace the representation-code but it _is_ some work that doesn't need to be done right now.


bases==underground bases ...  i agree, but keep the hangars in mind. Crafts need to get to the surface without it looking unplausible.

Cameras in the base: Just the whole map including all emenies ... nothing fancy for that ... This 'mode' could be indicated by a small camera-icon in the screen-corner. This is something for later as well.

Security system (lethal): this would need some brainstorming to keep it plausible and at the same time balanced.

Finally I think we should discuss every single 'topic' in a seperate thread, so this one doesn't get cluttered with other stuff.


Werner

[PsyWarrior]

I agree that major changes to the base system should not be the number 1 priority right now. However, looking forward to V1.0 (which should for all intents and purposes be the 'finished' version - although few projects like this ever stop development), what would we like to see?

Right now, the base construction does the job (and TBH, the presence of base construction AT ALL already makes it better than the comercially released UFO: Aftershock / aftermath / WTH they are called). This doesn't mean that UFOAI can't be a little more ambitious than that, if it wanted to.

Let's talk a little about what needs to happen in the short term, then.

Firstly, something seems... wrong to me about the base. I think it's because it's at an angle. The screen is square, and as a result you have this square base at an angle with lots of empty, black, unbuildable space around it. Would it work better if it was straight-on, like in the original UFO games?

Secondly, I'm assuming we'll see a greater variety of structures since many of them use the same bitmap. Also, 'building under construction' images would be nice...

And how will power production / consumption work? Will UFOAI follow the Command and Conquer convention? I.e: Your first structure / first couple of structures will be self sustaining, certainly the Elevator should. Power plants are required to run at full efficiency. Base defenses will not function, and building / researching time will be extended when there is insufficient power.

OR will nothing at all work without power, meaning that your base will effectively be offline for 10 days (or however long it takes to construct a new power plant)?

Personally, I'd prefer the first one. Losing base defenses and suffering slowed production and research is enough punishment for not looking after your power consumption. Related to this, there needs to be a 'power meter' of some description so you can easily monitor the requirements of your base. A simple "Power Usage: 180/200" would do the job...

Agreed about the seperate topics / clutter thing.

-PsyW

[[S|G]]

Firstly, something seems... wrong to me about the base. I think it's because it's at an angle. The screen is square, and as a result you have this square base at an angle with lots of empty, black, unbuildable space around it. Would it work better if it was straight-on, like in the original UFO games?

Maybe you could add some unbuildable terrain around? Like make a wall or fence to delimitate the "buildable" area and fill the remaining space with random gadgets (ventilation tunnels, pipes going from one part of the base to another area, etc). That way you could still have the base at an angle and eliminate that weird black area.

[PsyWarrior]

Yeah, good one S|G.

The problem with changing the angle of the base is that you'd have to remake all the existing images, which are taken at an angle... so filling the blank space would probably make the base look a little more right.

-PsyW

[BTAxis]

I was under the impression that X-COM bases were underground.

[Hoehrer]

I was under the impression that X-COM bases were underground.

Indeed they are (currently) completely underground ... so when referring to the "empty black space" around your placed builings you can call that earth

Werner

[PsyWarrior]

That doesn't make it any less 'ugly' to look at... Generally it's a good idea to avoid masses of empty space. X-Com bases are supposedly underground (hence S|G's suggestion about pipes and stuff and my talking about an elevator), but the space could be filled with something, surely...

-PsyW