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Author Topic: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons  (Read 12381 times)

Offline Colamann

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Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
« Reply #30 on: April 27, 2009, 03:59:39 pm »
I'm of two minds about civilians running away. On one hand it makes sense for them to do so, but on the other hand it would effectively mean that the civilians would migrate to the edges of the map every time, and that's bad.ยท
Alright, that's a pity. I can't come up with a solution for this, though, so I won't complain. ;)

Quote
Stun gas ammo for the launcher isn't planned... It doesn't really fit the weapon, nor the spirit of PHALANX' combat operations. I feel gearing the equipment towards stunning too much sends the wrong message.

[...]

Well, there's the electrolaser. It's a taser-ish weapon that delivers an electric shock guided by a laser beam.
Sounds great to me. Though modding a stun gas grenade for the launcher into the game is tempting... Shouldn't be impossible, as well.

As for the 'wrong message' part: I'm still influenced by the old X-COM games, where you pretty much had to stun as many aliens as possible to be able to research everything in the game. Has this changed (or at least lessened)?

The argument was about governments handing out weapons to normal citizens, which would NEVER happen, not even during an alien invasion.
Especially if even the regular army fails miserably at fighting the aliens. Authorities would advise people to run like hell because you and your trusted shotgun can't kill what a platoon of marines can't kill.

Offline BTAxis

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Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
« Reply #31 on: April 27, 2009, 04:05:58 pm »
No, capturing live aliens is vital for completing the game (or will be at any rate). It's just that, well, stunning shouldn't be too EASY. If it's easy, you could just go around stunning every alien on the map, and then what are all those weapons that kill good for? Stunning should be possible, but only when the conditions are favourable, to make live captures more valuable.

Offline Colamann

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Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
« Reply #32 on: April 27, 2009, 04:45:53 pm »
Let me rephrase the question. In XCOM, there used to be a bazillion different versions of every alien, like soldier, engineer, navigator, pilot and commander. Thus you'd have to capture 50+ different aliens alive. To complicate things, there was no way of telling which one is which.

What I wanted to know is whether you reduced that workload, or not. Because if you didn't, then the player pretty much would have to stun every alien if at all possible. I read in the wiki that the longer you play, the more pressure you will get from the aliens. So a player can't just do hundreds of missions stunning an alien from time to time, you know?

Offline BTAxis

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Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
« Reply #33 on: April 27, 2009, 05:40:11 pm »
I don't really understand what you're trying to say.

Offline Colamann

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Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
« Reply #34 on: April 27, 2009, 07:10:52 pm »
Simply put: If the game requires players to stun huge amounts of aliens in order to win the game, then the game needs a good (ranged) stun weapon. So my question was: Will I have to stun huge amounts of aliens?

Offline BTAxis

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Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
« Reply #35 on: April 27, 2009, 07:51:57 pm »
Depends on what you call huge. Dozens, certainly, but not hundreds.

Offline Colamann

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Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
« Reply #36 on: April 27, 2009, 08:24:10 pm »
Alright. Thanks for the info (and your patience! ;) ).

odie

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Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
« Reply #37 on: April 28, 2009, 08:37:06 am »
Let me rephrase the question. In XCOM, there used to be a bazillion different versions of every alien, like soldier, engineer, navigator, pilot and commander. Thus you'd have to capture 50+ different aliens alive. To complicate things, there was no way of telling which one is which.

What I wanted to know is whether you reduced that workload, or not. Because if you didn't, then the player pretty much would have to stun every alien if at all possible. I read in the wiki that the longer you play, the more pressure you will get from the aliens. So a player can't just do hundreds of missions stunning an alien from time to time, you know?

BTAxis,
Well, let us refresh our memories for X-Com 1.

There are basically Sectoid, Snakeman, Etheral, Muton, Floater, Celatid, Chryssalid, Reaper, Sectopod and Cyberdisc.

For most of those, we have leaders (usually the Etheral or higher intelligence creatures). Then engineers (across most race except Sectopod Cyberdisc or Chryssalid or Celatid). Then Soldiers (for most). Then navigators and pilots... -.-"

Let say based on those 5 classes, we are talking abt at least variations of some 10 types of possible soldiers, 4-5 types of leaders and 4-5 types of engineers, then 2-3 more types of pilots and navigators....

That brings us to at least some 20-25 types of different types of race/vocations. Even if u managed to capture 2 each, you will have some whopping 50 aliens alive already. (And i am sure u will get more of those.... since we are aiming for leaders)

I remembering capturing a whopping 200+ aliens in X-com1. lol.

So, yupz, are we going to emulate this in UFOAI, thats the original question.



I think this original style of aliens-vocationing, is nice and puts depth and practicality in the game. :) Personal opinion opening up for discussion (not quarrels. :P)

Offline geever

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Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
« Reply #38 on: April 28, 2009, 11:21:48 am »
There are basically Sectoid, Snakeman, Etheral, Muton, Floater, Celatid, Chryssalid, Reaper, Sectopod and Cyberdisc.

You left Silacoid out! Shame on you! :P

For most of those, we have leaders (usually the Etheral or higher intelligence creatures). Then engineers (across most race except Sectopod Cyberdisc or Chryssalid or Celatid). Then Soldiers (for most). Then navigators and pilots... -.-"

In fact the first 5 were the main races other were "terrorists", each main race had a terrorist race (Floater had 2)... There were no pilots only navigators, and some commanders on battleships or bases.

-geever

odie

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Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
« Reply #39 on: April 28, 2009, 11:52:30 am »
You left Silacoid out! Shame on you! :P

In fact the first 5 were the main races other were "terrorists", each main race had a terrorist race (Floater had 2)... There were no pilots only navigators, and some commanders on battleships or bases.

-geever
Muhahahhaha!!
Woot!

geever, geever...... lol..... ok ok, silacoid.... my bad ok? lol.

Yupz, mainly alot are terrorist, and a couple of commanders alright. Lol. :P Basically i captured so mani i dun remember em all........ oh yar, silacoids are bad idiots, dam hard to capture...... i will usually shoot on sight. LOL.

Xenotron

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Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
« Reply #40 on: May 19, 2009, 05:41:02 pm »
There were simple ways to discover the nature of alien - by Mind sphere(or reader?) and Psi-amplifier.

But, let's think once more about Civs AI. What will you do if encounter alien in your town? I think you will run and cover somewhere. And I will not run definitely towards PHALANX troops! What's for? After all these operations, I think all population over the world will soon know that PHALANX troops could hit civs as well as aliens. Because it's battlefield, not rescuing mission! So, It's silly to move towards either alien or trooper. The best way - to run from LOS and just cover.
By addition to possible civ characters: they could also be "suicidal fanatics" who could both runs toward aliens(Long-time waited gods from the sky!) or fight against the PHALANX(their relatives was killed during past missions or they are helping aliens due to their faith(Apocalypse Day)).

odie

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Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
« Reply #41 on: May 21, 2009, 11:16:52 am »
There were simple ways to discover the nature of alien - by Mind sphere(or reader?) and Psi-amplifier.

But, let's think once more about Civs AI. What will you do if encounter alien in your town? I think you will run and cover somewhere. And I will not run definitely towards PHALANX troops! What's for? After all these operations, I think all population over the world will soon know that PHALANX troops could hit civs as well as aliens. Because it's battlefield, not rescuing mission! So, It's silly to move towards either alien or trooper. The best way - to run from LOS and just cover.
By addition to possible civ characters: they could also be "suicidal fanatics" who could both runs toward aliens(Long-time waited gods from the sky!) or fight against the PHALANX(their relatives was killed during past missions or they are helping aliens due to their faith(Apocalypse Day)).

O.o
Wow, tat AI would be pretty strange to code (though its simply a couple of conditions preset with a random counter). But why not lets make this game more 'standard' by having a standard behaviour for the civis ? (i.e. such as running towards a certain point.)

Nightranger

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Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
« Reply #42 on: June 08, 2009, 04:41:43 am »
Guys, I am REALLY ENJOYING this game!


Okay.  I agree with Xenotron.  My thought was that they would try and hide.  Wandering aimlessly in a battlefield is not advisable.

I've had enough experience in 2.2.1 where the CIVILIANS would congregate in a hallway, blocking it for several turns.  My desired solution was to shoot one, but I didn't want any bad press.  Guess I could have stunned one of them if I had a stun rod.

The aliens do a good job of hiding between turns.  The civilians just need to stay out of the way.  Running to the map edges would just make them better targets in a lot of cases.

There's my $.05.

Offline PhilRoi

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Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
« Reply #43 on: June 15, 2009, 11:00:48 am »
Hand thrown grenades are generally larger in effect then anything launched.   Given the stated size of the Launcher round Keep in mind how much actual payload of "Gas" can be fit into the round.    Not much would be my take.  certainly far less then a hand thrown gas grenade.  The area of effect would be smaller and the concentration and thus effectiveness of the irritants dispersed would be less.  Can it be done for "realism"?  yes certainly.  But i think it would need to be "nerfed" appropriately/legitimately to avoid upsetting the game balance.  in short.  I am opposed to it on the grounds of gamebalance/flavor.  The excuse being that the  GL round is too small to provide adequate dispersion of THIS SPECIFIC MIX of chemicals needed in a quantity sufficient to be "combat effective."

Civ's on the battlefield? people are going to have one of 3 responces,  and they are the same basic behaviors you see sheep doing: Hide, Herd, Hysteria.

1. Hide - Run from aliens, and PHALANX both.(possibly other civ's too.)  "There are people with guns shooting!  OH MY GOD!  If I Hide then maybe they won't notice me. I don't want to get shot!"  (simple LOS check,  move only when needed to get out of LOS of others.)

2. Herd - Civ's will look for other Civ's and cluster/follow them.   Some may chose to "Herd" with PHALANX soldiers, But only till they see other Civ's to be with.  In times of trouble they go with who they know.  "Where are my Children!?  Where is my Husband? Stay with me! I don't want to be alone!!!" (check targets seen and move to closest "friendly" inside certain range.  otherwise Hide/hysteria as appropriate.)

3. Hysteria-  If an alien gets too close they might attack the aliens.  when up against the wall, what else do they have to lose? they will die horribly but they might try.  "AHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!  Wheres my BABY?!?  WHAT DID YOU DO TO MY BABY!"  (Check targets and if alien too close, say 2-3 tiles and if injured,  attack!  otherwise  move randomly.)

If I had to code behaviours for a CIV AI those are the ones that I would do.  You can just give every Civ one of the default behaviors for the map and have them stick with it.  The HERD responce can lead to some realistic interactions.  Lady HERDS to guy with HIDE responce.  HERDS with HYSTERIA.  could be someone trying to calm down family member....  HERDS and HERDS = 2 kids holding each other frozen in place.  or simply script a few basic conditions where a person can shift AI modes.  start them all in a random mode  but then let it shift as needed.
If i had to code all the behaviors into 1 AI behaviour set.  Hide when alone, Herd with other CIV's prefered or PHALANX if close enough and nothing better.  And hysteria if aliens too close,  RUN if possible,  Fight only if cornered.

I can provide evidence to support these behaviours.  and setting it up this way wouldn't unduely influence gameplay.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2009, 11:32:17 am by PhilRoi »

Offline Destructavator

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Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
« Reply #44 on: June 15, 2009, 05:11:05 pm »

Civ's on the battlefield? people are going to have one of 3 responces,  and they are the same basic behaviors you see sheep doing: Hide, Herd, Hysteria.

1. Hide - Run from aliens, and PHALANX both.(possibly other civ's too.)  "There are people with guns shooting!  OH MY GOD!  If I Hide then maybe they won't notice me. I don't want to get shot!"  (simple LOS check,  move only when needed to get out of LOS of others.)

2. Herd - Civ's will look for other Civ's and cluster/follow them.   Some may chose to "Herd" with PHALANX soldiers, But only till they see other Civ's to be with.  In times of trouble they go with who they know.  "Where are my Children!?  Where is my Husband? Stay with me! I don't want to be alone!!!" (check targets seen and move to closest "friendly" inside certain range.  otherwise Hide/hysteria as appropriate.)

3. Hysteria-  If an alien gets too close they might attack the aliens.  when up against the wall, what else do they have to lose? they will die horribly but they might try.  "AHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!  Wheres my BABY?!?  WHAT DID YOU DO TO MY BABY!"  (Check targets and if alien too close, say 2-3 tiles and if injured,  attack!  otherwise  move randomly.)

I agree with this - Civilians are not clones and don't always react the same under pressure or panic-inducing situation.  I only spent three years in law enforcement, and in a grunt position at that, but I'd say this is pretty accurate for how people behave when it hits the fan.

Civilians really need to have more than one way of reacting, I'd imagine it shouldn't be too hard for the game to randomly assign one personality type to each civ for how they react.

I also think there should be a separate personality type for how police and other armed and friendly but non-player-controlled characters behave.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2009, 05:14:00 pm by Destructavator »