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Author Topic: Request: Headshot mode for sniper rifles  (Read 22026 times)

sirg

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Re: Request: Headshot mode for sniper rifles
« Reply #30 on: July 01, 2008, 04:47:27 pm »
I don't care if you call the game formula unrealistic, it's just how it is. It's one of the fundamental things that make a UFO game a UFO game. Without it, it'd be a different game, which would not be as much fun from my point of view. And that's what matters.

It's bad if you don't care. I see you saying that alot. I just say that you should take in consideration what people are saying, or at least parts of what they saying. Taking in consideration doesn't mean implementing that, however you are dismissing other concepts very easy.

Besides, like Trashman said, there are double standards applied here when it comes to game realism. Miniguns were discarded because they are unrealistic as a handheld weapon (which is true), but on the other hand surviving a direct hit in the head from a heavy sniper rifle bullet doesn't matter if it's unrealistic. The list could continue with many examples.

I guess that everyone here understands that you are trying to create this feeling of apocalypse, but there are so many other ways to enhance this mood, beside strong armors.

I also think that you are trying to cover to many areas because of the complex and rich story that you have. When I played X-Com I have never thought about where are my armies or what does the airforce do, etc... I had the feeling that I was doing the special ops, not replacing the army. Anyway, X-Com is the greatest example of balancing game play issues, I don't know what I would add to that game beside a modern graphic engine.

Offline BTAxis

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Re: Request: Headshot mode for sniper rifles
« Reply #31 on: July 01, 2008, 04:57:32 pm »
It's bad if you don't care. I see you saying that alot. I just say that you should take in consideration what people are saying, or at least parts of what they saying. Taking in consideration doesn't mean implementing that, however you are dismissing other concepts very easy.

It's not that I dismissed it at face value. The game design regarding obsoletable weapons has been made long ago, and it's already a fixed part of our design strategy. So from my point of view, you're trying to change something we've already established. And sometimes you just have to go with the plan. There's always going to be someone who will argue for a change to something, but you can't keep changing stuff you've already done, because then you won't ever finish the game.

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Besides, like Trashman said, there are double standards applied here when it comes to game realism. Miniguns were discarded because they are unrealistic as a handheld weapon (which is true), but on the other hand surviving a direct hit in the head from a heavy sniper rifle bullet doesn't matter if it's unrealistic. The list could continue with many examples.

Yes, sometimes realism is counted more heavily than at other times, that is true. It depends on the situation. But it is especially because I want to avoid having this whole talk of realism that I want to get rid of the headshot. That's what I meant when I said your arguments made me want to lose it even more.

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I also think that you are trying to cover to many areas because of the complex and rich story that you have. When I played X-Com I have never thought about where are my armies or what does the airforce do, etc... I had the feeling that I was doing the special ops, not replacing the army. Anyway, X-Com is the greatest example of balancing game play issues, I don't know what I would add to that game beside a modern graphic engine.

Then you might be better off moving to Xenocide. They're trying to do exactly that. Me, I think X-COM had some pretty big flaws, but that's me.

sirg

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Re: Request: Headshot mode for sniper rifles
« Reply #32 on: July 01, 2008, 05:20:28 pm »
Then you might be better off moving to Xenocide. They're trying to do exactly that. Me, I think X-COM had some pretty big flaws, but that's me.

No, I'm not thinking "moving" to something else just because it looks more like X-Com. It will never feel right, unless it's a remade by the same people at the defunct Microprose.. That's why I still replay some savegames of the old legend.

The idea of obsoletable weapons isn't bad at all, in fact it's the core of a game such as this. But I'm against the idea of dismissing all the human weapons after 10 missions to have squads with the same weapons as the aliens. That's plain. In X-Com I didn't like the fact that by the end of the game I was using the alien's weapons against them (or was it in TFTD). In my imagination it would be great to have a mix of human and alien designs by the end of the game, humans having modified or tweaked versions of the alien designs, along with "classic" weapons, improved ofc.

I like the idea of having some alien weapons that can't be used by humans because of the handle or other issues. Other than that I would like to be able to customize some of the weapon designs, to make my own weapons - like sacrificing range for rate of fire or power, or less power for a lighter weapon that could be fired with one hand, etc, all based on a base model. An other thing that I would like is to see from the 1st glance if it's an alien weapon or a human weapon (even if hi-tech plasma), to have different models even if the 2 weapons are basically the same.

Offline BTAxis

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Re: Request: Headshot mode for sniper rifles
« Reply #33 on: July 01, 2008, 05:26:59 pm »
You are free to like or not like what you want, but humans using aliens' weapons against them is (among other things) what a UFO game is all about. If you don't like that part, fair enough, bit it's not a reason for us to come back on our design philosophy.

Also, as far as I understand it Xenocide aims to faithfully remake X-COM, with the same story, aliens, weapons and rules. Same with Cydonia's Fall.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2008, 05:29:16 pm by BTAxis »

Offline Nevasith

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Re: Request: Headshot mode for sniper rifles
« Reply #34 on: July 01, 2008, 05:28:27 pm »
than remove our snipers one hand- not much of a realism a single handed sniper, but that would surly justify their inability to shot at head, as he would barely hit anything.

And to be more serious - leave it as it is, instead of making ridiculously resistant aliens, use that time to fix their AI- im no scripter, but  but it would be nice to have a challenge not depending on immortal godlike aliens capable of surviving a direct blast in the head from a sniper rifle, or a RPG. Rather than that teach aliens how to crouch and hide, give them reaction fire, improve their grenade handling- better to make it a tactical chalange.
A slightly different AI for species would be nice- large heavy ortonok would tend to charge hidden troopers- mostly getting killed by a sniper, while tamans would rather snipe and hide. Sheevars would probably sneak behind- lot of crouching, maybe even make it their default move if its possible to reduce movement TU cost

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along with "classic" weapons, improved ofc.
plasma rounds for MG- something like current phosphorous rounds

Im afraid that custom designed weapons would be do complicated to code

sirg

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Re: Request: Headshot mode for sniper rifles
« Reply #35 on: July 01, 2008, 05:38:45 pm »
I wanted to say that I don't like the idea of using exactly the same weapons like the aliens use, or captured weapons. Where is the element of inventivity and creativity in that, if you are looting and using the loot to kill the aliens? It's perfectly ok to use their tech against them, but as Winter said in a post, it's highly unlikely that their weapons will be usable by humans. Just replacing a handle and a trigger mechanism doesn't require to many brilliant scientists. So I would preffer a human made weapon based on alien tech rather than the same weapon aliens use.

As for the customizable weapons I wasn't thinking of something to complicated. You could adjust the damage done, rate of fire, TUs, range, etc... but not the graphical model (like in Gal Civ). Ofc you have to think of some limitations, like if you increase the damage you lose range, etc, and some attributes can't be changed, depending on weapon and so on.

Offline BTAxis

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Re: Request: Headshot mode for sniper rifles
« Reply #36 on: July 01, 2008, 05:55:33 pm »
Customizable weapons in that sense already exist, because everything the weapon does is defined per ammo type. So all you have to do is make a new ammo type that has the properties you want. Want to make the shotgun fire missiles? Easy. Just make a clip that fires a projectile that looks like a missile and has a splash effect.

Offline Nevasith

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Re: Request: Headshot mode for sniper rifles
« Reply #37 on: July 01, 2008, 06:11:06 pm »
i like the idea of alien-technology based human weapons and ammo- like the plasma grenades. This could open many great perspectives of developing the strategy- you could stick to human weapons keeping them effective- plasma rockets, and 20mm grenades, flachettes and many other weapons.

maybe some electric weapons for our green friends that would work on humans as stun weapon, while being much less effective against aliens?

Sophisanmus

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Re: Request: Headshot mode for sniper rifles
« Reply #38 on: July 01, 2008, 06:16:33 pm »
Hey, don't they have those frag grenade rounds for military shotguns now?  Additional ammo types for more of the traditional weapons based on alien tech sounds rather appealing: monomolecular sniper rounds?  Plasma variant of the Flamethrower (derivative of the "Plasma Blade" tech)?  Maybe even a carbon nanotube flechette gun that carries a payload of blister gas?  

The Plasma rounds for the Grenade Launcher was a good first step.  For an X-COM spirit, it felt both fresh and right at the same time.  How many everyday things can you say that about?
« Last Edit: July 01, 2008, 06:18:32 pm by Sophisanmus »

sirg

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Re: Request: Headshot mode for sniper rifles
« Reply #39 on: July 01, 2008, 06:31:10 pm »
Customizable weapons in that sense already exist, because everything the weapon does is defined per ammo type. So all you have to do is make a new ammo type that has the properties you want. Want to make the shotgun fire missiles? Easy. Just make a clip that fires a projectile that looks like a missile and has a splash effect.

Yes, that's one of the great concepts successfully implemented in this game, for which I like the combat part. However, you should play with the sniping idea a bit more..

Offline Nevasith

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Re: Request: Headshot mode for sniper rifles
« Reply #40 on: July 01, 2008, 06:36:26 pm »
I think sniped shot that kills on a successful hit should cost a lot of TU- as it takes time for a precisive  aim, so no other action, but some short walk could be performed this round  . On the other hand it should be a cheaper on reaction fire, as that way sniper is already scoping the area for potential targets.

Sophisanmus

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Re: Request: Headshot mode for sniper rifles
« Reply #41 on: July 01, 2008, 07:11:23 pm »
Monomolecular sniper rounds.  A researched ammo type, consisting of 3-4 small MM blades forming a single round (they naturally bend, and so don't make for a good round singly), and with terrific penetration potential.  Of course, rounds would be exceedingly expensive to produce, taking considerably longer than a MM combat knife to produce a single clip (which would contain 15-20 small MM blades). 

Could keep the Sniper Rifle weapon alive in the mid- to late-game, even when a nromal headshot through alien armor wouldn't be fatal (I still like the idea of the HS command giving a damage multiplier to the hit, but only after the damage has been reduced by armor).  Of course, larger aliens would be more resistant to this sort of small projectile tearing through their bodies, and so would need something with more punch, or a lot of spare rounds.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2008, 07:19:35 pm by Sophisanmus »

sirg

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Re: Request: Headshot mode for sniper rifles
« Reply #42 on: July 01, 2008, 07:29:03 pm »
you don't need a sharp bullet, because it's not like shooting with a crossbow.. you need heavy bullets, like depleted uranium which is several times more heavy than lead. So maybe if you come up with something heavier... but even with current bullets the impact is devastating. A bullet would pass through light armor (vehicle) with no problems, and higher caliber would pass through tank armour as well. If it hits a human it would rip apart limbs or make massive wounds.

Offline DanielOR

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Re: Request: Headshot mode for sniper rifles
« Reply #43 on: July 01, 2008, 07:54:11 pm »
Nevasith, I like that idea: how about having the sniper rifle stay a one-kill weapon, but increasing the TU cost to some like 28 and removing snap shot.  Reaction fire limited to 1 shot per round.  Than the sniper has to either move or shoot.  And really, really require protection. 

Would that be a good balance?

Sophisanmus

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Re: Request: Headshot mode for sniper rifles
« Reply #44 on: July 01, 2008, 08:03:51 pm »
Stay away from the one-hit-kill idea.  The snipers will be up against beasties of unknown biology and durability, and shooting the head off of some of these may only accomplish pissing them off.  Then then there are the robots...  High damage or a multiplier or something I could understand, but the instant-kill option should not be.