project-navigation
Personal tools

Author Topic: Request: Headshot mode for sniper rifles  (Read 22028 times)

Sophisanmus

  • Guest
Re: Request: Headshot mode for sniper rifles
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2008, 02:40:56 am »
Quote
We don't model damage to specific body parts for any weapon, and I don't think there is a need to.
I'm taking this to mean you don't want to track damage for each body part.  If you do mean you will just be lumping all hits from all body parts together with no difference based on hit area, then you can mostly ignore the next paragraph.

You could apply multipliers for damage to body parts, if the game tracks where hits land or somesuch.  Penalties could be imposed whenever such an area is hit for a certain percentage of the character's total health (say 15%, 30%, and 45+%) and these penalties could include accuracy (arms), movement costs (legs), and perception/reaction (head), etc.  The current 'Headshot" can be renamed "Precision Shot", and it could target the enemy head or head-analogue instead of the center of body, with some accuracy boost to compensate for the added TU cost versus a smaller target area. 

With the Headshot as-is, though with some renaming, it could well have a morale impact on the enemy if it kills the target, above and beyond the normal dead-alien effect.  Also, I suggest maybe doubling the damage after it is reduced from enemy armor, instead of just increasing the base damage.  To me, increasing the bullet's effect after armor has been considered makes a bit more sense than firing an enchanted bullet that hits harder against other bullets fired from the same gun.

sirg

  • Guest
Re: Request: Headshot mode for sniper rifles
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2008, 10:56:14 am »
Critical hits is something we're not going to have as long as Winter is on the team, and I don't like it much either. We already have a several random elements involved in combat - chance to hit, damage variation and grenade bounce. Adding more is going to make combat a big mess of randomness.

If it were up to me I'd like to take the headshot off the sniper rifle anyway, though. I don't see why there should be a special shot like that, other than that head shots are traditionally associated with sniper rifles. We don't model damage to specific body parts for any weapon, and I don't think there is a need to. Adding a firemode called headshot that does increased damage is going to give people the wrong idea (i.e. that we do) and is going to not make sense against enemies that don't even have a head.

Then your team is dismissing a very fun gameplay concept. I read your explanation about SF incredible strong materials, and I don't think you understand how powerful a .50 cal depleted uranium hit really is. The impact force is so brutal that it can pass through a light tank, break apart engine blocks, etc... If something would be that strong to survive this hit, it would take all the kinetic energy, which is huge. It would snap the head off. Unless your Ornoks are made of steel, then their neck might sustain such an impact, but I guess you are realizing how daft is that.

Regarding enemies that don't have a head, like a machine, you simply have that mode greyed out, unavailable, even though any machine has some weak spot.

I agree with the idea that aliens should be much more evolved in armor technology, yet I think you are exagerating and stretching physics to the limit with these concepts. I.e. aliens taking minimal damage from a direct hit from a rocket... that's exagerated, because even if your armor resists the impact, the body gets all the kinetic energy and the impact shock would destroy all the internal organs or machinery inside. It's like a high speed car crash. Even if your car's hull takes the damage from the impact, and the body is protected by airbags, if the impact is to strong, you're going to die because of the shock, because the shock will destroy your internal organs.

I think it's a bad idea to substitute tanks with aliens. Alien beings aren't tanks unless their weight is dozens of tons.

Offline BTAxis

  • Administrator
  • PHALANX Commander
  • *******
  • Posts: 2607
    • View Profile
Re: Request: Headshot mode for sniper rifles
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2008, 12:10:08 pm »
It's exactly arguments like that that make me want to remove the headshot fire mode even more.

Offline TrashMan

  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 833
    • View Profile
Re: Request: Headshot mode for sniper rifles
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2008, 12:37:14 pm »
I agree up to a point.

Offense has substantially overshot defense. We got nukes, SABOT and delpeted urainum high-calibre weapons. Anything that was designed to take out a tank will rip trough any alien armor. There are limits to protection and mobility. You can't put 3 feet of armor and a solider.

Offline Nevasith

  • Rookie
  • ***
  • Posts: 98
    • View Profile
Re: Request: Headshot mode for sniper rifles
« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2008, 12:48:44 pm »
i highly oppose removing head shot- changing the name to precision shoot should be enough, as you can hit robot in a sensor,  or an exhaust, or even damage the cooling system

sirg

  • Guest
Re: Request: Headshot mode for sniper rifles
« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2008, 01:24:03 pm »
It's exactly arguments like that that make me want to remove the headshot fire mode even more.

If the name bothers you then you can call it precision shot, like Nevasith suggests. But if you dislike the idea, then what of my arguments makes you want to remove this concept, and how do you see things on this?

Imo, the idea of unstoppable aliens comming trough a rain of bullets almost unharmed is ridiculous, no matter how much you come up with hi tech/ scifi tech armors. With such armors you can stand a hit in the torso, but a high velocity hit in the limbs would rip it off from the body or cause serious internal injuries. Unless you imagine a SF force field type of shield, which also absorbs inertia, you can't neglect the power of modern sniper rifles.

I think I understand that you want us to fear the aliens and feel puny and vulnerable, but still, modern weapons are very powerful. If the aliens would have come in the 16th century, then I agree that even 100 musket rounds won't harm an alien's helm. :) However, a Barret .50 cal sniper rifle can destroy a vehicle from 2km!

Offline BTAxis

  • Administrator
  • PHALANX Commander
  • *******
  • Posts: 2607
    • View Profile
Re: Request: Headshot mode for sniper rifles
« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2008, 01:34:32 pm »
If the name bothers you then you can call it precision shot, like Nevasith suggests. But if you dislike the idea, then what of my arguments makes you want to remove this concept, and how do you see things on this?

Pretty much what I've said earlier in this thread. There is a premise that (almost) all human weaponry is to be rendered ineffective with the introduction of alien technology. To me, this concept is at the heart of the UFO game formula, and as such it's sacred. By making a headshot deadly against aliens no matter what they are wearing, you create a weapon that is superior from the beginning to the very end. That fits in with Jagged Alliance, which has a (theoretically) balanced set of weapons across the board. Not so UFO. Weapons aren't supposed to be balanced; alien tech is supposed to be superior to human tech.


Quote
Imo, the idea of unstoppable aliens comming trough a rain of bullets almost unharmed is ridiculous, no matter how much you come up with hi tech/ scifi tech armors.

Again, game formula. If you argue like that then there is no point to this game. If aliens could be beaten by overpowering them with normal human weaponry, there would be no need for PHALANX. The idea is that PHALANX is mankind's only line of defence the only chance at countering the alien invasion, because the normal military is incapable of dealing with the aliens' superior technology. Incidentally this is why I don't care much for the thread about local troops. You might think it's unrealistic to disregard the normal military in the struggle against the aliens, but as far as I am concerned, so be it.

Quote
I think I understand that you want us to fear the aliens and feel puny and vulnerable, but still, modern weapons are very powerful. If the aliens would have come in the 16th century, then I agree that even 100 musket rounds won't harm an alien's helm. :) However, a Barret .50 cal sniper rifle can destroy a vehicle from 2km!

Well, by now you probably already get the message, but I don't care. No matter how powerful human weapons are in real life, in the game they are no match for alien technology, because that's what the game formula demands.

sirg

  • Guest
Re: Request: Headshot mode for sniper rifles
« Reply #22 on: July 01, 2008, 02:52:38 pm »
Then you have a very unrealistic game formula, unless the alines are protected by individual bubble shields. There is one universe which is similar to this game - Stargate SG-1/Atlantis. There you have several squads as the only line of defence against vastly superiour alien races such as the Goa'uld, Replicators, Wraith, Ori and so on... Yet, human weapons prove very effective to a certain point, like the real SMG P90c. Even with Earth based tech, they can effectively kill lots of aliens with superiour techology, without having any advantage. I'm only comparing things, I don't want to start a discussion about Stargate, but because the series are successful, I think the writers of that show have balanced things quite nicely.

During the episodes there are several creatures or constructs who are very resilient and almost indestructible, but they are an exception.

And only last thought about the real sniper rifle - you will get the sniper rifle from the start, but the sniper skill will need many missions to build up, in order to have a lethal sniper, or so I imagine this concept. And also, it doesn't have to be an old style sniper rifle... you get to upgrade it and such, be better in TU usage, better accuracy, etc.

Offline BTAxis

  • Administrator
  • PHALANX Commander
  • *******
  • Posts: 2607
    • View Profile
Re: Request: Headshot mode for sniper rifles
« Reply #23 on: July 01, 2008, 03:12:52 pm »
I don't care if you call the game formula unrealistic, it's just how it is. It's one of the fundamental things that make a UFO game a UFO game. Without it, it'd be a different game, which would not be as much fun from my point of view. And that's what matters.

Offline TrashMan

  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 833
    • View Profile
Re: Request: Headshot mode for sniper rifles
« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2008, 03:35:59 pm »
I find it funny how often the game premise is defended with "science" or "belivability". But when, those two oppose the game premise, they are suddenly forgotten.

IHMO human weapons should always remain effective up to a point. I like em as they are now - even late game I can kill aliens with only standard human weapons. Not easy, but doable.

Quote
The idea is that PHALANX is mankind's only line of defence the only chance at countering the alien invasion, because the normal military is incapable of dealing with the aliens' superior technology. Incidentally this is why I don't care much for the thread about local troops. You might think it's unrealistic to disregard the normal military in the struggle against the aliens, but as far as I am concerned, so be it.

Except that PHALANX isn't the ONLY line of defense. Last I heard, those super-counties haven't disbanded their militaries and funnles all $$$ into Phalanx. their militaries still exist. PHALANX sells excess weapons to them. Sure, PHALANX still carriers the brunt of the burden, but I fail to see a logical reason why the normal military couldn't help PHLANAX.

Offline BTAxis

  • Administrator
  • PHALANX Commander
  • *******
  • Posts: 2607
    • View Profile
Re: Request: Headshot mode for sniper rifles
« Reply #25 on: July 01, 2008, 03:45:49 pm »
I find it funny how often the game premise is defended with "science" or "belivability". But when, those two oppose the game premise, they are suddenly forgotten.

For the record, I've never attempted to do that. I've always placed gameplay above realism when the two could not be successfully combined.

Quote
Except that PHALANX isn't the ONLY line of defense. Last I heard, those super-counties haven't disbanded their militaries and funnles all $$$ into Phalanx. their militaries still exist. PHALANX sells excess weapons to them. Sure, PHALANX still carriers the brunt of the burden, but I fail to see a logical reason why the normal military couldn't help PHLANAX.

The thing is that if PHALANX fails, it's the end of the world. You need to put that kind of pressure on the player, or the game will be a joke. So if you let the military take too big a role, you take away from the game's atmosphere.

Offline TrashMan

  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 833
    • View Profile
Re: Request: Headshot mode for sniper rifles
« Reply #26 on: July 01, 2008, 03:52:10 pm »
But if you take away any role from the military, make it practicely non-existent,. you also take away from the games atmosphere, and even more.

Offline BTAxis

  • Administrator
  • PHALANX Commander
  • *******
  • Posts: 2607
    • View Profile
Re: Request: Headshot mode for sniper rifles
« Reply #27 on: July 01, 2008, 04:00:22 pm »
The military is only nonexistent in tactical combat, though. It is implied that the U.N. (and thereby the military) handles support tasks such as transport of goods and UFOs. But I assuming you were in fact talking about tactical combat, and when it comes to that I just plain don't agree.

Offline TrashMan

  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 833
    • View Profile
Re: Request: Headshot mode for sniper rifles
« Reply #28 on: July 01, 2008, 04:18:31 pm »
So? The military should just wait and sit idly while a village near to a military base is under attack? Even if it takes hours or days for PHALANX to show up...if it shows up at all?

Yea...let's put our full trust and defense of the Earth into the hands of a dozen people (you start with 8 soldiers and you will never have 1000's anyway), even tough we have a large and capable military and the aliens outnumber the PHALANX and the PHALANX can't defend everything at once alone.

Yeah...great logic.  ::) Great government too..

Offline BTAxis

  • Administrator
  • PHALANX Commander
  • *******
  • Posts: 2607
    • View Profile
Re: Request: Headshot mode for sniper rifles
« Reply #29 on: July 01, 2008, 04:42:46 pm »
So the military should take care of it? Assuming for the sake of the argument that they are even capable of that? Great, no need for PHALANX then. And with no need for PHALANX there's no need for this game. So why are you still here? Go pretend it's "logical" and "realistic" somewhere, because you won't be needing to play. As far as you're concenred the game will never comply with those notions, after all.